Originally posted by Metalmanx
Aww, I get no mention for being a Spidey-supporter.🙁
Next time, when jinzin starts to annoy me again by ignoring blatant fact and I decide to go to bed rather than go on arguing about it, you can be sure to get a mention.
Originally posted by MERCILOUS
There's just really no point in argueing against 5 paragraphs a post that straw puts out. He/she just keep repeating the same thing over again and apparently has no ability whatsoever to make consice points.If he/she did he/she'd realize he/she's making no sense. LOL!
I've been redundant, jinzin's been redundant, you've been redundant, pretty much everyone that's posted on this thread for the long haul has been redundant.
But maybe I don't have to be redundant simply because your side has been ignoring everything I've said except for the few precious moments where'd you call my theories (which could quite easily be proven fact if you'd more thoroughly assume the fact that Cap, DD, and Wolvie were never, EVER described as peak humans.) I can understand your side using the argument of Cap's tactician skills, which still in mine and, as far as I know, other Spidey supporters' opinions won't work.....it's still a fairly rational way of making your case. But to go as far as doubting DD's, Cap's, and Wolvie's humanity (and yes, I know that Wolvie is a mutant, but he is still, as far as condtioning goes, a human at his physical peak), and saying that they'll avoid Spidey's attacks and webbing as well as tearing the webbing? That's not logical or rational in the least. And I never thought that anyone on this thread would argue Cap or DD actually surviving an unpulled punch from Spidey. But, in a strange, strange turn of events, some have. And it's sad.
That's why I commend unregisteredman, though I disagree with his saying that the trio would win, he's saying so because of the trio's strategy and such, and not going as far as saying that one could solo Spidey or take an unpulled punch from the guy (with the exception of Wolvie, who would still end up KO'ed).
Originally posted by jinzin
yeah....pretty much what merc said.....I'm just done arguing and proving the same points that straw is debating over and over again....*he thinks spiderman can't be hit by peak humans cause it's not fact----when spiderman's clearly been shown to be hit by humans.
*he thinks spiderman can take all these guys out with a single punch------DD's already been shown to take said punch and much much more without going down and he's the least durable person here. why would that change just for this fight?
* he thinks that hits from the trio aren't going to do a damn thing---- when one punch from cap sent spiderman on his ass...and wolverine too
*he thinks that spiderman's precog will keep him out of any danger whatsoever-----despite the fact that spiderman has been taken by surprise before
*he thinks that these characters are just a bunch of statistics and that 3 comic book human heroes can't bring down one superhuman hero-------
despite the fact that all three of these guys do so regularly in comic books....they take down other superhuman heroes, super human villains, and have gone toe to toe with spiderman as well
*he thinks that we should debate this topic with common sense----- despite the fact that he acknowledged the origins of the characters are completely nonsensical.......
This isn't DBZ the guys with the weakest powers are not assured an ass whoopin just because they're weaker.....this is marvel comics, where a 5 foot tall hairy midget can take down a big green monster that gives the entirety of the avengers trouble........given the characters histories....and their past showings against spidey himself.......they logically (in comic book logic ....lol) should be able to hand spidey his ass no problem.
I don't know if I can classify you as actually being in denial, though I have in the past (and I am convinced), but the more I think about it the more I start to believe that you're really doing this to see what makes me tick (in a hostile sense.)
Originally posted by jinzin
"Hearing those words is music to my ears..lol..finally..looks like we're about to take out another one..fellow spidey supporters..first Captain Jk(aka Captain Joke)..now jinzin...wohoo...lol..."ummmm unless you're to stupid to figure it out for yourself let me help you there...I'm done debating the same points of and over WITH STRAW.....there....better?
"because they will always survive everything somehow in the pages. "
well MISTER I defer to what I wrote you in the spiderman vs. wolverine thread about stats....so you already know how I feel about that.
Dodging the web with ease is laughable and it sets up extremely fast otherwise it would be useless in most situations and even web slinging would be dangerous.
lol...good point here....but it's really the only explination for wolverine getting out of it in that comic. Otheriwse he would have been stuck on the wall.
Spidey vs Wolverine is a joke as Spidey stated during the secret wars( And the Secret Wars was not just a spidey promotion campaign Spidey has humiliated the X-men once when Wolvey wasn't around) Wolverines skills are undeniable but his attack radius is extremely limited when compared to Spidey's. His strength doesn't come close and sorry to say it but strengh and speed are relative. Spidey has Superhuman speed and Wolverine has somewhat enhanced speed( honed by training too) Bottom line, if what spidey said is true and wolvy is faster than him then he should have been able stop him by himself in the secret wars battle, he even had help. The only enhancement Wolvey has gotten since then ( correct me if I'm wrong) is a popularity boost that gives him the power to get up from blows from the hulk ( even thugh he should have been out cold with a concussion and needing some heal up time) hang with spidey, and survive get ripped apart by magneto.( something that should have killed him not send his healing factor into overdrive) But I'm glad he got said boost because it made him even cooler than he was before and that's sayin somethin. Sad to say though that head to head Wolverine only has his skills,claws and inferior speed and strength to bring to the
fight while Spidey has his skills,webs,spider-sense,wall crawling,superior speed, and vastly superior strength. Before Spidey made the statement about Wolvy being faster than him he stated that wolverine was a joke. If you believe one statement from the mouth of Spidey you might as well
take the rest as gospel truth too. The real truth is that qouting what these guys say only works when said statement is proven to be a consistant fact. eg Juggernaut "I'm Unstoppable" eg" Hulk is strongest one there is" Juggernaut has been pushed back and the silver surfer is probably stronger than the hulk. Given that wolverine is not noted to have speed that is superhuman and Spiderman has been (Spider Speed is one of his self proclaimed powers, and has been displayed enough times to verify the statement) Wolvy gets slapped around once again."
Okay for this, mostly i defer to the wolverine vs. spiderman argument i directed towards you most recently....it basically explains all the advanteges and blah blah blah...so go check that out....but as far as the gospel truth is concerned...you're missing a few things here man....first...spiderman said wolverine was a joke before he really had any real encounters with the guy.....As i said before....wolverine is even saying something about not wanting to hurt spidey....none of the x-men did.....Spiderman slapped him away...it's true...but when you do that to someone that doesn't want to hurt you...it takes away the credibility of said feat..... The difference between that statement and the one in Berlin was the fight in Berlin was an actual fight...Spiderman was pepared to kill, wolverine was even holding back his claws when he could. spiderman's quotes speak for themselves...he said that (interpretation-->inspite of his witty humor and bad jokes) all he had was a false bravado when wolverine started going after him.....This is in spiderman's head too...this isn't just an ego statement....the quotes you took from the hulk and juggy are not the same thing....those ARE ego-filled statements.....If we are to go by that kind of logic...wolverine's the best at what he does (which I'm still not really aware of WHAT that is by the way), and Apoc is basically just a god. Hell even i proclaim I m the best at CALL OF DUTY online...but that's simply not the truth.....the differences between a thought in somebody's head and an ego statement or a joke hidden behind false bravado are complete POLAR OPPOSITES.
"sometimes even downright *retarded* ways like having DD survive a full force punch from hulk."
no....you're misunderstanding...daredevil took a couple slaps from the hulk.....he nearly died by the end of it but he was still able to stand after a couple of them. A full force blow would have killed him.....the other point was that daredevil HAS indeed bounded around Hulk as easily as spiderman is shown to in that pic some pages back......although some spiderman fans are convinced he hasn't ....ever. lol
"wolverine and captain america are ridiculously over used characters whose popularity makes it in marvels interest to portray them as real hardcore badasses (which i guess they are) who basically cant be beaten. this is just plain ridiculous."
I can't see how anyone can use the fact that these are popular characters against them....spiderman's easily more popular than daredevil and captain america combined....are we to discard all his past feats just because of that as well?
"the fact is, it does rougly come down to human vs superhuman. thats the point of being superhuman. like ive said before (long time ago), i doubt that spidey will be able to beat all three of these characters. it might happen, but in most cases i think he will lose. but to hear people argue about whether cap or DD could take spidey alone is just not right. they would stand no chance. it doesnt matter what some random issue showed. each writer creates their own version of a character. apparently there is a version of DD that can withstand a punch from the Hulk. maybe that version could take spidey. before the debate continues, i think we should all agree on just what abilities each character has. "
But we're not debating stats...."the thing is that defeats the purpose of debating about these characters....they aren't just a bunch of stats compiled into one page.....sure they're written differently all the time....but the validity of their bios isn't any more credible than the writing in the comics....why?... because the bios are consistanly proven wrong, and the comics consistantly show things that contradict the bios.....but this is a COMIC BOOK vs. forum not a COMIC CARD STATS vs. forum...the only reason why any of us are even here debating this is because of the fact that we've read all these guys in the comics and we decided that we liked them...then decided they were of interest enough to talk about them......we wouldn' have that same interest if all we knew about them was speed, strength, and durability stats. Who really gets to say that these characters powers are defined by a given stat when their life expereinces fluctuate said stats all the time....all the time....It works both ways......
....and while we're on the subject of just totally disregarding wolverine's past feats because of his popularity....PLEASE if this was a popularity contest Spiderman would probably kick wolverine's ass.....spiderman was farrrrrrr more popular than wolverine untill about the late 90's just because wolverine's started to accumilate a fan base in the last decade doesn't mean you guys can constantly disregard his feats based on popularity.....if we're going to do that then forget about the first 40 years that spidey's been in comics......semantic debating isn't fun....I want to debate comics.....seeing as this is a COMIC BOOK vs. forum....lets do that."
....but if we were really to discuss the characters for how they SHOULD be written there's a whole nother list of reason fro why spiderman would get his ass kicked by these three guys.
"And I never thought that anyone on this thread would argue Cap or DD actually surviving an unpulled punch from Spidey. But, in a strange, strange turn of events, some have. And it's sad"
this is in another thread but it easily applies here as well.
"Ok...in XMA a test was done using martial artists bones and their punching and kicking power....they determined that decently trained martial artists with honed and tempored hits can be as powerful as 2000 yeah that's two thousand pounds of pressure per square inch into a given punch or kick (more pressure than is usually applied in most car wrecks).....THEN they determined (through experience from an accident) that a martial artist ribbs could take said blow with ease....ribbs are some of the weakest bones in the human frame....you can brake them by coughing too hard. The bones develop calcium deposits...the deposits fill up with blood cells and eventually the bones get harder....denser. Bones can be as durable as steel.....i.e. iron fist technique (nothing to do with the comic book character)....a man (his name escapes me at the moment, but if not him...even MY martial arts sifu/teacher) trained to punch things. hard things, he did this every day. By summoning enough energy and giving his bones enough time to heal and then work on hitting harder materials...he got to a point where anything he punched that wasn't steel would basically shatter into rubble....even said steel was dented and deformed by his fists.
of course I'm not saying that batman even comes close to being able to take or give the same amount of damage that spidey can using just brute force....but he'll be able to take spidrman's punches for sure....remember two things....first these are real world examples.....real stuff always becomes exxadurated ten fold when applied to comics...and second batman is peak human....the martial artists in the show were in very good condition yes....but nowhere near what we define as peak human level. taken those two facts and one can easily understand how batman will be able to give as well as take punishment from spidey using his fists alone."
"You really haven't proved anything other than you're either ignorant of how this thread or 'versus' fight works, and that, like me, you redundant and, unlike me, you haven't come up with any rebuttals that haven't been documented for fact."
I don't know what you want me to say...I've given you freaking pictures from IN CONTINUITY...you can't get much more factual than that....I've rebutted you point for point at some moments.....and you haven't really proved anything to me other than you know less about spiderman comics than I do.
"I don't know if I can classify you as actually being in denial, though I have in the past (and I am convinced), but the more I think about it the more I start to believe that you're really doing this to see what makes me tick (in a hostile sense.)"
not really...but hey if you're gettin frusturated that's just an added bonus.
"That's good news, because you've done nothing to convince me that Cap, DD, and Wolvie could possibly be "superhumans."
I defer to srank on this one......it's from another thread but applies here all the same.
"Everything Snake-eyes does is out side the realm of human but... he loses because he is human? I just dont fallow the reasoning."
"Of course not, but Jinzin has dedicated his life to convince the rest of the world how overrated SM is, by showing carefully selected pics ."
oh please....I've shown entire fight sequences with no omitted pics....for instance I could have shown that daredevil/spiderman fight and just left it before spidey webbed one of his arms.....that would have been selective......but while we're on the subject....
it doesn't seem to bother you guys to much when whob's showing of that MTU pic like it's the holy grail.......talk about carefully selected....you guys neglected to show the pics where A) an omega level mutant blasted wolverine accross an apartment building B) wolverine got blasted by an omega level mutant again. C) spiderman seeing wolverine getting pissed and acknowledging both him and the kid are about to be in some trouble or C) wolverine trying to convince spiderman to get out of the way and spiderman webbing him while wolverine's in the middle of talking......
hmmmmmm let me think.....who's really being selective here?...hmmmmm...ridiculous.
Funny how every fight against wolvie in spiderman's favor as in fact been a NONFIGHT....interesting indeed.
exactly cap doesn't even need a master plan when he's got "his little killing machine" the most tactical words out of his mouth he has to us are..."sic em" and wolverine kills spidey while dd and cap eat nachos....
Now for the crazed spiderman fans who didn't get that....that was a joke.....just an exaduration (sp? please?)....but it don't matter spidey's still going down....whether it's by the hand of one or all three.
jin-
i didnt mean that spidey and cap would lose b/c of popularity or that we should disregard their histories b/c of popularities (in fact, i didnt even imply that...thats entirely of your creation)...that was really just an unrelated statement of my beliefs.
and while spiderman may be more popular, he isnt an used in the way that cap and wolverine are...wolverine is always described as "the best there is at what he does" ...except no one really knows what the **** that is. cap is the consumate leader and moral crusader whose unwavering determination and sense of ethics sees him through no matter waht the stakes blah blah blah, all that bullshit. this is all besides the point though.
you are correct that it isnt all about stats, but i never said that it was. but it isnt all about 'histories' either. its about us and our imagination. the stats arent the only factors, but neither are the 'histories' b/c these change and in, fact, contradict each other all the time. further, the way a character is written by a certain writer is based on a lot of things...their general statistics, abilities, limitations etc being a part of it. what i said in my last post was that in many cases, specifically involving cap and wolvie, the writers GROSSLY step outside the GENERAL AND SOMEWHAT VAGUE bounds specified by stats, powers, and the general "feel" that a character has aquired over the years. its up to us to take what we know from stats, and stories, and (in my opinion) strip that information down to what we see as the basic abilities of the characters and THEN set them against each other. quoting some pic of some comic and treating it as the gospel truth just doesnt make sense (if i become a comic writer and write a story about spiderman kicking the silver surfers ass using well places jokes, farts, and small children that doesnt make it possible...that was clearly an extreme case, but you get the idea...no need to respond to that)
to say that DD "bounded around Hulk as easily as spiderman" is, in my opinion, a gross violation of character...the whole point is that spiderman possesses power that a human cant get just by working out. this much is just obvious...carry on.
oh god it's back.....
lol
"you are correct that it isnt all about stats, but i never said that it was. but it isnt all about 'histories' either. its about us and our imagination. the stats arent the only factors, but neither are the 'histories' b/c these change and in, fact, contradict each other all the time."
Well when the histories CONSISTANTLY show any one of the trio able togive spiderman a run for his money......to me....it doe tend to matter. looking at Hulk's stats vs. wolverine's....wolverine would NEVER be able to take the hulk...but in the comics he has CONSISTANTLY given the green goliath a run for his money....even almost killed the big guy.....but don't get me wrong I get what you're saying and I slightly agree.
"further, the way a character is written by a certain writer is based on a lot of things...their general statistics, abilities, limitations etc being a part of it. what i said in my last post was that in many cases, specifically involving cap and wolvie, the writers GROSSLY step outside the GENERAL AND SOMEWHAT VAGUE bounds specified by stats, powers, and the general "feel" that a character has aquired over the years. its up to us to take what we know from stats, and stories, and (in my opinion) strip that information down to what we see as the basic abilities of the characters and THEN set them against each other. quoting some pic of some comic and treating it as the gospel truth just doesnt make sense"
again....these characters ALL have had many great amounts of changes throughout the years but in terms of their feel all of these guys still give spidey a good run 1on1 because they've all done it before...and taken it to guys far greater than spide as well......the silver surfer thing you said i agree with....but logan/cap/dd beating the tar out of spidey or even giving him a good fight by themselves is not outside bounderies that would put them in the same category as spidey beating ss with.....farts.
not in my opinion...not in 68 other members' opinions and not in the opinions of spiderman comic book writers or the general marvel comics fans.....but once again....just an opninion right?
"the whole point is that spiderman possesses power that a human cant get just by working out. this much is just obvious...carry on."
I'm not debating that....but for all of pidey's super powers......I still don't think it puts him on the pedistool he's been given by some of these guys....
You know what jinzin, I've noticed alot of people calling it spidey because of the stats, but what if the characters were given stats for less tangible things such as strategy, leadership, resourcefullness, will power?
If marvel actually did something like this (on all those collectible cards that the spidey boys keep banking on) then they just might see the stats racked against their favorite little web-head.
hahahahahah this thread is truly hillarious.... Anyone who in their hearts believe spiderman would win this fight is a FANBOY. if you look at the three... all of the would give spidey a good run för his money BY THEMSELVES. I can agree that DD would probably lose more than he would win, probably 3/10. but cap vs spidey= 50/50 and wolvie vs spidey=50/50... and what di we get from this? three guys who singlehandedly can hand spiderman his **s vs one who have a slight chance of winnig against the on on one.... the result of this fight would be (drumroll.......) spider filét....
I'm sorry if my english isn't the best since I'm from Sweden
Originally posted by MERCILOUS
You know what jinzin, I've noticed alot of people calling it spidey because of the stats, but what if the characters were given stats for less tangible things such as strategy, leadership, resourcefullness, will power?
If marvel actually did something like this (on all those collectible cards that the spidey boys keep banking on) then they just might see the stats racked against their favorite little web-head.