Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Inertia is the resistance of an object to change in motion. What they would both gain is an increase in downwards [B]momentum as soon as they begin to descend from the peak of a teleport. The increase in momentum is proportional to speed which is proportional to time. Acceleration due to gravity is constant.Yes I am assuming open sky but no I am not assuming they must be outdoors. Nightcrawler is constantly teleporting into and out of places while only knowing the general layout.
Yes multiple teleports do wear him out but they take a toll on the passenger too and as Nightcrawler is more used to teleporting this toll is usually far greater on the recipient. I will accept that the healing factor may make this experience more bearable for Logan but I dispute that this would make it more bearable for him than Kurt. [/B]
Excuse me, I meant to say Momentum.
So if it's no worse for Wolverine then Kurt, that should really be all he needs. It would take a lot of luck on Nightcrawler's part to be able to teleport behind Wolverine, grab him, and take him along in the first place. Wolverine isn't going to just stand there stupidly while Kurt attempts this.
And anyway, why would he attempt this? Nightcrawler's not a killer, it would be a pretty far fetched situation for him to try and use a lethal tactic against Wolverine anyway. Logan, on the other hand, has much less compunction about using those claws of his.
Moreover, what's to stop Wolverine from putting his big, adamantium-laced hand around Kurt's throat when the German grabs him? Kurt lacks the strength to get Wolverine off, and now wherever 'Crawler teleports, Wolverine's right there with him.
Nightcrawler just doesn't have the equipment to take out Wolverine without 1. A lot of luck or 2. a battlefield stacked in his favor.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There are examples of when it's pathetic and examples of when its ridiculously strong. The healing factor is ludicrously erratic, it is always as good as the writers need it to be for the plot thus theoretically it is always plot induced stupidity.
It's only PIS if it is ridiculously over or under the norm, since the majority of the time Wolverine shrugs of hits from high level bricks, that is the norm and as such it is not PIS.
The latency time of teleportation is limited by the speed of thought. It's about .5 of a second. He has a .5 second window of opportunity between each port to stab the fuzzball I'll give you that.
The fact that Kurt doesn't want to kill him is irrelevant if Logan wants to kill Kurt. Kurt is not a murderer, but he would act in self defence. He'd pray for Wolvie's soul after he was forced to put him down.
It's going to be as hard if not harder for Logan to grab hold of Kurt, because he has better agility and range due to teleportation and his ability to wallcrawl. If Wolvie gets a hold of Kurt. Kurt teleports away without Logan. He does not bring all mass he is in connected with when porting, only that which he wants to, he stands on the floor its connected to the walls etc.
As for PIS. He was chained up outside alone in the Australian outback, the reavers did a number on him but it could not be worse than consecutive punches from Hulk. He takes ages to recover from the former but gets up from the latter within seconds. Erratic doesn't even begin to describe.
People forget that the healing factor is not supposed to protect him from injury it's supposed to recover him from injury; he should still sustain the injuries of any normal man and then recover from them subsequently if they do not overload his healing factor. A man falling from 2 miles at terminal velocity (with adamantium skeleton) does not emerge conscious, and no an adamantium skeleton does not protect from the shock of such neural damage, kinetic energy is transfered through it. In fact the skeleton should worsen the impact since kinetic energy travels more easily through denser objects if I recall correctly.
Phew. Tired now.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The latency time of teleportation is limited by the speed of thought. It's about .5 of a second. He has a .5 second window of opportunity between each port to stab the fuzzball I'll give you that.The fact that Kurt doesn't want to kill him is irrelevant if Logan wants to kill Kurt. Kurt is not a murderer, but he would act in self defence. He'd pray for Wolvie's soul after he was forced to put him down.
It's going to be as hard if not harder for Logan to grab hold of Kurt, because he has better agility and range due to teleportation and his ability to wallcrawl. If Wolvie gets a hold of Kurt. Kurt teleports away without Logan. He does not bring all mass he is in connected with when porting, only that which he wants to, he stands on the floor its connected to the walls etc.
As for PIS. He was chained up outside alone in the Australian outback, the reavers did a number on him but it could not be worse than consecutive punches from Hulk. He takes ages to recover from the former but gets up from the latter within seconds. Erratic doesn't even begin to describe.
People forget that the healing factor is not supposed to protect him from injury it's supposed to [B]recover
him from injury; he should still sustain the injuries of any normal man and then recover from them subsequently if they do not overload his healing factor. A man falling from 2 miles at terminal velocity (with adamantium skeleton) does not emerge conscious, and no an adamantium skeleton does not protect from the shock of such neural damage, kinetic energy is transfered through it. In fact the skeleton should worsen the impact since kinetic energy travels more easily through denser objects if I recall correctly.Phew. Tired now. [/B]
.5s of a second (and I wonder where you got that figure?) is actually quite within the realm of Wolverine's capability. We've seen repeated instances of Wolverine moving too fast for people to even see--
Wolverine #31: Wolverine is in a seated position enjoying a drink as a squad of machine-gun armed Yakuza step in behind him and open fire. Without these assassins even realizing where he's gone, Wolverine has already moved from his seat, over the bar counter, and ducked down behind it, only the fabric of his jacket grazed by bullets.
New X-Men #133: Wolverine stands with his back to a gunman, and we can clearly see from the art he is at least a good ten yards distant. When the gunman fires, Wolverine steps aside so that the bullet merely grazes his cheek, and in the same breath recovers the distance and slices off the gunman's hand. In that panel, Wolverine is merely depicted as a blur of wind.
He's superhumanly quick; not up to Spider-Man's level, but certainly fast enough to take advantage of even a moment's window.
Nightcrawler's enhanced speed and agility come from his altered physiological and anatomical structure. Wolverine's is inexplicable and again erratic. Some say it's due to the Weapon X project; the strength may come from the adamantium skeleton but if anything the weight should make him less agile and slower. Two examples of Wolverine moving like Quicksilver who is depicted as a blur of colour on the page aren't really very conclusive. (depiction as a blur of wind or as completely gone when Quicksilver is depicted as colour I would assume implies Wolverine can move faster than Quicksilver?)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Nightcrawler's enhanced speed and agility come from his altered physiological and anatomical structure. Wolverine's is inexplicable and again erratic. Some say it's due to the Weapon X project; the strength may come from the adamantium skeleton but if anything the weight should make him less agile and slower. Two examples of Wolverine moving like Quicksilver who is depicted as a blur of colour on the page aren't really very conclusive. (depiction as a blur of wind or as completely gone when Quicksilver is depicted as colour I would assume implies Wolverine can move faster than Quicksilver?)
Err... no. Kurt's speed and agility come from his years of training as an acrobat, it is in no way derived from his mutation. They've said so multiple times, one example I have on hand is Excalibur #63. Kurt is going through a training exercise, and one observer notes that his agility *seems* superhuman--but the other corrects him, no, it's the product of years of hard work and training.
That enhanced strength is exactly WHY Wolverine is faster despite his heavy weight. The strength stems from his adamantium bones, and more then makes up for the weight incurred. Speed comes from muscle, not from lack of weight. I can outrun people who weigh 50 lb. less then I do because my muscles can carry me faster.
Yes. I agree with the rigourous training part but that his agility is beyond the ability of a normal human due to the abnormal anatomical curvature and range of motion of his spine.
I'm sorry but you contradict yourself when you talk of strength and speed. In fact I've come to realise the adamantium skeleton although unbreakable wouldn't necessarily increase his strength. If he has the same musculature as another man but adamantium bones, that could make him stronger or it might not. Increased bone density would increase strength in the sense that more momentum is put behind his movements due to increased mass, but performing those movements would be slower. Momentum = mass x speed, so the skeleton might increase his strength or it might not depending upon how much that extra mass slows him down. He would require increased musculature just to perform the tasks at the same speed as a normal male sans adamantium skeleton.
The skeleton is therefore a hindrance to speed, agility and reflexes and possible even strength. Any feats of superhuman speed are therefore inexplicable in terms of Weapon X.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Yes. I agree with the rigourous training part but that his agility is beyond the ability of a normal human due to the abnormal anatomical curvature and range of motion of his spine.I'm sorry but you contradict yourself when you talk of strength and speed. In fact I've come to realise the adamantium skeleton although unbreakable wouldn't necessarily increase his strength. If he has the same musculature as another man but adamantium bones, that could make him stronger or it might not. Increased bone density would increase strength in the sense that more momentum is put behind his movements due to increased mass, but performing those movements would be slower. Momentum = mass x speed, so the skeleton might increase his strength or it might not depending upon how much that extra mass slows him down. He would require increased musculature just to perform the tasks [B]at the same
speed as a normal male sans adamantium skeleton.The skeleton is therefore a hindrance to speed, agility and reflexes and possible even strength. Any feats of superhuman speed are therefore inexplicable in terms of Weapon X. [/B]
Yes, but your arguement falls apart due to the fact that Wolverine IS that strong, and he's a lot stronger then Nightcrawler. Maybe they wouldn't IRL, but his metal bones DO enhance his strength, allowing him to lift (press) around 1000 lb. (maybe a little more.)
I don't know where you get this bit about Nightcrawler having extra flexibility, but that doesn't go towards his strength at all. A 110 lb. gymnast who can flip her body around a pole is going to be physically quite weaker then a 225 lb. lineman--and not necessarily any faster on her feet, either.
The density of his skeleton enhances his strength, and we've also seen that Wolverine's body will hold together under immense pressures--such as the incident where he was hit in the back with the nose of a stealth jet in mid flight. The energy transferred from that impact should have sent him flying apart, unbreakable bones or no--but all it does is carve up his back some, which quickly heals. Or whenever the Hulk, Thing, Roughhouse or whoever gives him a punch and sends him flying. Wolverine's muscular structure, ligaments and tendons are incredibly tough: they'd have to be to do what he does.
So just because Wolverine weighs more then Nightcrawler isn't going to necessarily make him slower. Even heavy guys can be quick on their feet--in fact, we linemen have to be to do our job well. That speed comes from our muscles, not from a double-jointed spine or whatever.
More strength = I propel myself faster = why a guy built like a tank who has trained his muscles can outrun a guy built like a twig. This is especially true over shorter distances: over long distances, the weight difference starts to tell (as the big guy has to carry more weight.) But if you ever go to a track meet and look at the sprinting events, do you see many scrawny, pipy guys? No, you see a lot of guys with powerful chests, big arms and legs like engines.
Wolverine is at least equal in speed (probably faster), certainly stronger, and much more lethal. Again, unless Kurt is lucky or has prepared the field in his favor, he's losing 8/10.
mutant-neomorphic physiology gives him a flexible spine for heightened agility, reflexes and coordination, iridescent eyes, blue velvet fur, three fingers on each hand, two toes on each foot, fangs, pointed ears, a prehensile tail, control the inter-atomic bondings between his molecules and those of other objects to cling to solid surfaces, extra-dimensional wormhole surrounding his body absorbs light constantly to cast his body into shadow and make him transparent in darkness, and he can enter the wormhole to teleport from place to place within our dimension seemingly instantaneously, accompanied by a rush of air, a stench of brimstone, and a burst of flame
