pre-crisis superman vs Galactus

Originally posted by h1a8
you should never go by the spank order.
It is faulty. This is a fact.
You should go by each own abilities and powers.
Superman has been shown to have more than enough power to kill Galactus.
Is this false? Answer me!
Superman has been shown to resist forces (including transmutation) that is greater (if not equal) to what Galactus can give.
Is this false? Answer me!

If you refuse to answer those questions then I guess that means your bias. Right?

note: when arguing who vs. who. It is not sound to use someones low points if it contradicts their high points. If that is the case then one should use only the high points. And superman with his high points will kill Galactus. Is this false? Answer me!

er, why are you shouting? 😕

i'll gladly answer your questions.

1. has supes been shown to have enough power to kill g? no. consider who or what has 'killed' g. abraxas, a universal power/cosmic. starvation has almost killed him, but the thread starter has said a regular powered g, not a weak powered one. the hunger entity was beating him, but that was a multiversal threat. inbetweener. cosmic level. IG, hotu, ultimate power sources. weakened, it still takes high powered teams to just chase him off. what exactly would supes do to kill him? punch him? have some NEW power created to do the job? maybe, but that's silly and inadmissible here. first he did not ALWAYS have 'new powers' created, second, if that's the case then the whole argument is ludicrous. we go based on what we've seen and know, not what some writer MIGHT decide to do. so, the answer remains no, unless of course you have evidence of some galactus level character supes has beaten, of course . . . what good is it to say he's beaten folks beneath g?

2. supes has shown to rsist forces greater or equal to g? really? who? name one. i've asked this same question myself, yet no one in supes's corner has answered THAT question. for my part, i've given loads of examples of characters well BELOW supes who have hurt or ko'd him.

3. using supes at high points will he kill g? no. what powers have you seen him possess that g couldn't easily counteract?

so, now that i answered your questions, answer this: how will supes kill g? will he . . . freeze breath him? punch him to death? heat vision him? vibrate him to death? change g into a table with an 'undiscovered power?' (hehehe) sneeze him into a million pieces? time travel back to the birth of the universe when g should also be able to do the same thing seeing as how ss does so easily? throw planets at him? blow him into another solar system? tell me: how exactly will supes kill him?

oh, and the last one: am i biased? 😆

the irony of that statement, while likely lost on you will not be lost on the many who've seen me back supes in some pretty (seemingly) ridiculous fights. but you're right -- clearly i MUST be biased to be so foolish as to take a high level cosmic over a top tier hero in a 1on1 fight!

😆

look at the rest of the thread. i think you're the only one (and this thread is FULL of loyal superman fans -- even juntai admits g should win!) still arguing supes wins this fight.

it's really nothing to do with fanboyism or bias, and everything to do with common sense. 😉

To be honest, I'm glad to see DC fans that are realists. I was talking comics with people today on my campus that are avid DC and Marvel readers, and we were comparing Superman villains to those who could beat them in Marvel. We all agreed that Galactus is nearly unbeatable. The only force I can think of off the top of my head that could even match the big G was Ego the Living Planet. Spider-Man also said that Sentry stalemated him, and Thor has claimed to have fought and won against beings nearly as powerful. So, Galactus is too powerful for just about anyone to win. No incarnation of Superman can beat him. Sorry.

Originally posted by leonidas
er, why are you shouting? 😕

i'll gladly answer your questions.

1. has supes been shown to have enough power to kill g? no. consider who or what has 'killed' g. abraxas, a universal power/cosmic. starvation has almost killed him, but the thread starter has said a regular powered g, not a weak powered one. the hunger entity was beating him, but that was a multiversal threat. inbetweener. cosmic level. IG, hotu, ultimate power sources. weakened, it still takes high powered teams to just chase him off. what exactly would supes do to kill him? punch him? have some NEW power created to do the job? maybe, but that's silly and inadmissible here. first he did not ALWAYS have 'new powers' created, second, if that's the case then the whole argument is ludicrous. we go based on what we've seen and know, not what some writer MIGHT decide to do. so, the answer remains no, unless of course you have evidence of some galactus level character supes has beaten, of course . . . what good is it to say he's beaten folks beneath g?

2. supes has shown to rsist forces greater or equal to g? really? who? name one. i've asked this same question myself, yet no one in supes's corner has answered THAT question. for my part, i've given loads of examples of characters well BELOW supes who have hurt or ko'd him.

3. using supes at high points will he kill g? no. what powers have you seen him possess that g couldn't easily counteract?

so, now that i answered your questions, answer this: how will supes kill g? will he . . . freeze breath him? punch him to death? heat vision him? vibrate him to death? change g into a table with an 'undiscovered power?' (hehehe) sneeze him into a million pieces? time travel back to the birth of the universe when g should also be able to do the same thing seeing as how ss does so easily? throw planets at him? blow him into another solar system? tell me: how exactly will supes kill him?

oh, and the last one: am i biased? 😆

the irony of that statement, while likely lost on you will not be lost on the many who've seen me back supes in some pretty (seemingly) ridiculous fights. but you're right -- clearly i MUST be biased to be so foolish as to take a high level cosmic over a top tier hero in a 1on1 fight!

😆

look at the rest of the thread. i think you're the only one (and this thread is FULL of loyal superman fans -- even juntai admits g should win!) still arguing supes wins this fight.

it's really nothing to do with fanboyism or bias, and everything to do with common sense. 😉

1. Your answer to this is false. Superman has snuffed out stars with his super breath and destroyed solar systems with a sneeze.
He has created a star by smashing two moons together.
He has pulled a dozen worlds at one time to another solar system with a new sun. He has thrown a spaceship many light-years away. Is that enough power to kill Galactus? If no, then that means Galactus can't be killed.
What about the things that have killed or hurt Galactus?
These things are not even 1 hundredth of the power that superman has shown.

2. Your answer to this is false as well. He has survived a hydrogen bomb without any effect. In 1951, he has survived in the core of sun. This is before he his powers were derived from the sun. He has withstood the omega effect from pre-darkseid. A feat that singlehandedly proves he can withstand anything Galactus can dish out.

Lastly, no one nonmagical has evered koed pre-superman (prove it). No one has drawn blood from him either. Did you ever hear him say "ouch". Just because he gets knock miles away doesn't mean he is hurt or damaged or koed. This is besides the point anyway as his powers flucuated over time. So I will use the high ones.
And stop using the spank order (who has superman beat type of logic). It is faulty and proves nothing.
Just go by feats. Yes Superman can punch G to death. Also, prove that G can travel through time as superman could. Prove that G is as old as the universe (i know this is false for I read his bios and history). G couldn't even counter the odin force from Thor. G couldn't counter the weapon (which was limited in strength) that caused his death.

Originally posted by Marcus4600
To be honest, I'm glad to see DC fans that are realists. I was talking comics with people today on my campus that are avid DC and Marvel readers, and we were comparing Superman villains to those who could beat them in Marvel. We all agreed that Galactus is nearly unbeatable. The only force I can think of off the top of my head that could even match the big G was Ego the Living Planet. Spider-Man also said that Sentry stalemated him, and Thor has claimed to have fought and won against beings nearly as powerful. So, Galactus is too powerful for just about anyone to win. No incarnation of Superman can beat him. Sorry.

superman prime can easily beat G.

Action Comics #782: Superman’s greatest ever feat of raw power. After flying through the sun for an increase in power, SUPERMAN MOVES A PLANET. Specifically, WarWorld, home of Braniac. But there’s more. Braniac has stolen the energy of Imperiex. Imperiex gained his power from the consumption of thousands of whole galaxies since the dawn of time. Hence his universal reputation as the “Devourer of Galaxies”. It is argued that Braniac wasn’t resisting Superman’s push, and that Superman ws “merely” moving a planet. This is directly contradicted by Braniac’s narrative: “Full thrust counter-measure! How is he moving my planet? The Kryptonian does not have that power!” The panel clearly shows the blue Imperiex energies firing from WarWorld’s engines. Yes, Superman was resisting the awesome Imperiex-begotten force, and pushed WarWorld through a boom tube to the beginning of time (big bang).

Note that this example confirms what we’ve suspected all along: that whatever the role that metabolized solar energy stores play in granting Superman his powers, he is obviously accessing power beyond that of the solar energies he can absorb. A few minutes in the sun is piddling compared to galaxies of power. (All of Superman’s feats listed here exceed the energy he could have gleaned from 30 years of absorbed sunlight, BTW.) Apparently the solar energy is either “hypermetabolized” (as per JLA scribe Grant Morrison), indicating energy generation via Unified Field/Big Bang, or the metabolized solar energy allows access to his deeper power, likely psionic in nature (as per John Byrne). But this time Superman is in the Sun more than a thousand times longer and has a lot more will of force (now that Lois is dead). Thus his power is completely unimaginative (more power than that of the entire universe)

Superman prime would spank G

No version of Superman can beat Galactus, especially a fully powered Galactus. At normal power Galactus destroyed numerous Galaxies in his battle with Tyrant. At full power The Watcher has stated Galactus can destroy the universe. Pre Crisis, Prime, Sun Diipped, blah, blah, blah. All fleas to Galactus.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Your answer to this is false. Superman has snuffed out stars with his super breath and destroyed solar systems with a sneeze.
He has created a star by smashing two moons together.
He has pulled a dozen worlds at one time to another solar system with a new sun. He has thrown a spaceship many light-years away. Is that enough power to kill Galactus? If no, then that means Galactus can't be killed.
What about the things that have killed or hurt Galactus?
These things are not even 1 hundredth of the power that superman has shown.

2. Your answer to this is false as well. He has survived a hydrogen bomb without any effect. In 1951, he has survived in the core of sun. This is before he his powers were derived from the sun. He has withstood the omega effect from pre-darkseid. A feat that singlehandedly proves he can withstand anything Galactus can dish out.

Lastly, no one nonmagical has evered koed pre-superman (prove it). No one has drawn blood from him either. Did you ever hear him say "ouch". Just because he gets knock miles away doesn't mean he is hurt or damaged or koed. This is besides the point anyway as his powers flucuated over time. So I will use the high ones.
And stop using the spank order (who has superman beat type of logic). It is faulty and proves nothing.
Just go by feats. Yes Superman can punch G to death. Also, prove that G can travel through time as superman could. Prove that G is as old as the universe (i know this is false for I read his bios and history). G couldn't even counter the odin force from Thor. G couldn't counter the weapon (which was limited in strength) that caused his death.

your 'spank argument' CAN hold water in some cases. what if robin was the one continuously beating/hurting him? would it still be inappropriate to use it?

i'm clearly not gonna convince you that g beats supes here, but just a last couple comments:

who cares if he can blow out a star? not gonna help him much in a fight with g, is it? the solar system thing was done with magic BEANS! thread starter doesn't say he gets magic beans for this fight or maybe he COULD win . . . besides, solar systems are a might tiny compared to GALAXIES . . .

he survived an H-bomb? 😕 so? g has destroyed GALAXIES!!

kosmos was NOT magical, he had a sort of cosmic power. luthor's armor was not magical. brainiac is not magical. parasite has leeched supes powers and left him near death. not magical. and yet you say the spank argument is no good. you may not like it, but, unfortunately it's all we have for comparison because . . .

NO ONE HAS YET GIVEN EVIDENCE THAT HE HAS BEATEN SOMEONE ON GALACTUS'S LEVEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hence, we HAVE to compare how he's done against people BELOW g, and in MANY MANY cases, he has not done very well . . .

i'm thinking you've not read many pre-c superman issues. you keep speaking in generalities and keep reiterating the same points, many of which are simply forum-speak.

who has hurt g? a very weak g was chased off by a god blast (a god blast has also done great damage to the mightiest of all celestials!) teams (high powered teams) have also chased off a very weak g. moderate strength g has basically one-shotted thanos (who battled a whole issue with odin), battled an extended time against hunger, a multiversal entity and absorbed/destroyed a celestial. all that among being named brother to eternity and death and eventual equal. there are many other feats i could name or list, but i really don't see the point. by now everyone BUT you is convinced.

oh, and supes was NEVER shown taking pre-c darkseid's omega effect. he did have his arm broken by him and in cosmic odyssey a single back slap sent supes effortlessly flying -- twice. current supes has taken it and it is speculated that the reason for that is supes is important to the source. but current ds has really sucked, so that may or may not be true.

about the only thing i can't prove on panel is that g can time travel. seems illogical though seeing as how ss does so easily.

and about g's origin . . .

you didn't really ask me to prove that g was present at the birth of the universe, did you? 😕 that would speak to a ridiculous lack of knowledge on your part about g and throw into question the whole point of discussing this with you. though it might explain why you think supes wins this . . .

Why do you say Darkseid sucked recently?

He turned an aspect of death/void[Secret] into a human child in Young Justice with omega beams. Darkseid's feats are crazy.

All but his current defeat to Superman, Wonderwoman and Supergirl [who he beat the crap out of until Superman took the fight to the sun.]have all been but retconned as not even him, written off as just avatars of his infinitely powerful self or Desaad in disguise. Though it may be written off as well.... And losing to Superman given his feats, is no small thing in either way if it's not retconned.

Originally posted by Juntai
Why do you say Darkseid sucked recently?

He turned an aspect of death/void[Secret] into a human child in Young Justice with omega beams. Darkseid's feats are crazy.

All but his current defeat to Superman, Wonderwoman and Supergirl [who he beat the crap out of until Superman took the fight to the sun.]have all been but retconned as not even him, written off as just avatars of his infinitely powerful self or Desaad in disguise. Though it may be written off as well.... And losing to Superman given his feats, is no small thing in either way if it's not retconned.

did he? cool. good to hear, actually. even still, defeats to ww, supes, supergirl and orion all paint him as a figure closer to top tier than actual cosmic, don't you think?

Originally posted by leonidas
did he? cool. good to hear, actually. even still, defeats to ww, supes, supergirl and orion all paint him as a figure closer to top tier than actual cosmic, don't you think?

And lets be real here. Superman is very much cosmic, he just runs around on Earth pretending he's not.

Originally posted by Juntai
I don't like how you're trying to knock Darkseid down the ladder in the form of a question. Darkseid has killed Orion, then brought him back to life. Darkseid smacked around Superman Wonderwoman and Supergirl at the same time, until they moved to the middle of the sun. And it's unproven whether it was just an avatar or not. Needless to say it's also certainly been proven that measures could have been taken against that happening, given he could have teleported away, or teleported both he and Superman somewhere besides the sun[to a red one maybe? or ANYWHERE besides where he's strongest maybe?], or any number of things. It can only be attributed to PIS/CIS given the circumstances, sorry..

And lets be real here. Superman is very much cosmic, he just runs around on Earth pretending he's not.

Originally posted by Juntai
I don't like how you're trying to knock Darkseid down the ladder in the form of a question. Darkseid has killed Orion, then brought him back to life. Darkseid smacked around Superman Wonderwoman and Supergirl at the same time, until they moved to the middle of the sun. And it's unproven whether it was just an avatar or not. Needless to say it's also certainly been proven that measures could have been taken against that happening, given he could have teleported away, or teleported both he and Superman somewhere besides the sun[to a red one maybe? or ANYWHERE besides where he's strongest maybe?], or any number of things. It can only be attributed to PIS/CIS given the circumstances, sorry..

And lets be real here. Superman is very much cosmic, he just runs around on Earth pretending he's not.

knocking him down? 😕

he may have beaten orion, doesn't change the fact that in front of apokalips and the new gods orion beat him 1on1 physically. supes beat him 1on1 AWAY from the sun. is ww cosmic too? maybe, but most would say not. are you saying ds's feats recently are comparable to what he's done in the past? i certainly don't think so. i don't need to knock ds down -- in fact i WANT him to regain his former glory -- dc has already done that for me.

as for supes being cosmic -- sure he is, in the same way the heralds are and gl is. i'd like to think of darkseid being ABOVE that level, but recent showings seem to contradict that desire. if he is doing things like you mentioned, maybe he is on the way back. i'd love to see the defeats retconned as avatars (a la thanos and his stupid clones) but until then it's hard to just ignore them, as much as i'd like to.

Originally posted by leonidas
knocking him down? 😕

he may have beaten orion, doesn't change the fact that in front of apokalips and the new gods orion beat him 1on1 physically. supes beat him 1on1 AWAY from the sun. is ww cosmic too? maybe, but most would say not. are you saying ds's feats recently are comparable to what he's done in the past? i certainly don't think so. i don't need to knock ds down -- in fact i WANT him to regain his former glory -- dc has already done that for me.

as for supes being cosmic -- sure he is, in the same way the heralds are and gl is. i'd like to think of darkseid being ABOVE that level, but recent showings seem to contradict that desire. if he is doing things like you mentioned, maybe he is on the way back. i'd love to see the defeats retconned as avatars (a la thanos and his stupid clones) but until then it's hard to just ignore them, as much as i'd like to.

Originally posted by thesilverspider
PREACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

way to stay impartial ss!!

😆

Originally posted by leonidas
knocking him down? 😕

he may have beaten orion, doesn't change the fact that in front of apokalips and the new gods orion beat him 1on1 physically. supes beat him 1on1 AWAY from the sun. is ww cosmic too? maybe, but most would say not. are you saying ds's feats recently are comparable to what he's done in the past? i certainly don't think so. i don't need to knock ds down -- in fact i WANT him to regain his former glory -- dc has already done that for me.

as for supes being cosmic -- sure he is, in the same way the heralds are and gl is. i'd like to think of darkseid being ABOVE that level, but recent showings seem to contradict that desire. if he is doing things like you mentioned, maybe he is on the way back. i'd love to see the defeats retconned as avatars (a la thanos and his stupid clones) but until then it's hard to just ignore them, as much as i'd like to.

Have you missed all his retcons?
http://img506.imageshack.us/my.php?image=retcon9ha.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=f9cca559jpgorig2ra.jpg
http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fb977017jpgorig9uj.jpg

A few issues after Orion beat him, it was found that Orion fought an Avatar. But as I've said, he's also killed Orion, and brought him back to life.

Who has the upper hand here?
Supes had to get help from all angles.

http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=superman39xb.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=superman42oi.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=superman50ob.jpg
http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supesds4pj.jpg
http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supesds19im.jpg
http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supesds25in.jpg
http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supesds37wq.jpg

And that could still very well be an Avatar doing it. And given his abilities, it was certainly in his power to take the battlewhere than the middle of the sun, and totally kicked Superman's ass the same as he did there. All the way up to that point, all Superman got in was a sucker punch from behind, lol. Once Supes him head on, even at full ramming speed, Darksied didn't even move, then slapped him like he was nothing, and Omega beamed at him.

i'm not arguing with you that ds is still powerful. and if his battle with orion was retconned than yes, i DID miss it. when and where did that happen?

in the ds v supes one-shot, supes beat him 1on1. was that retconned as well?

regardless, it doesn't change the fact that ds's more recent feats have not been what they once were. dc has soiled his sort of . . . mythical status. i think the opposite was intended -- i think by having supes battle him dc wanted to bring supes UP. rather, it seems they've brought ds down. what would i LIKE to see? i'd like to see ds handle supes the way odin handles thor -- HANDILY and easily. i'd like to see him handle ALL those level beings the same way. when he does, i think he will have regained his former glory.

oh, and that is some spectacular artwork in those issues. it could be argued though that ds only gained an advantage in the first place because HE sucker punched supes first through the wall . . .

and why couldn't supes have simply used heat vision to block the o-beams again? he's even been struck with them before, so who's to say they would have killed him? in the old days there would have been no doubt about the outcome had they struck him. and to me that's the difference. nowadays . . .? 🙁

The truth is, you don't want Darkseid 'returned to his glory', because you're clearly not facing the facts presented to you, that he doesn't even need to be. There's no real rational explanation of you believing he's weak.

He lost to Superman inside of the sun after he thought Darksied killed his Earth parents and his blood cousin?[Even though as mentioned, he could have done a number of proven methods, to have kept it from happening?]

Nowadays Omega Beams are just fine, it just doesn't work on Superman because he's imporant to the universe. He can still create boomtubes that could have gotten him out of that situation in the sun with Superman. Or just eyebeam teleport. It's always worked just fine on anyone.

These Omega Beams suck?
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=f880d1e1jpgorig0yr.jpg
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=f880d1e3jpgorig9zp.jpg

Remember who help beat Imperiex with Omega Beams?
http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imperiex1eu.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kismet0pq.jpg

Any chance you remember what happened AFTER Supes blocked the Omega Beams with heat vision?
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=svsds14gh.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=svsds20dc.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=svsds34ah.jpg

Originally posted by Juntai
The truth is, you don't want Darkseid 'returned to his glory', because you're clearly not facing the facts presented to you, that he doesn't even need to be. There's no real rational explanation of you believing he's weak.

😑

what's with the hostility? now you're TELLING me what i want? a bit presumptuous, no? a couple quick questions:

1. did he lose to superman in a 1on1 battle in the superman v darkseid one-shot?

2. did he beg off, declaring he couldn't use the o-beams because supes beat him so bad he was blind?

if that was retconned, please tell me. if it was an avatar, please tell me. i think the o-beams should have DESTROYED ww's bracelets, btw -- they are only pantheonic level, after all. once upon a time, darkseid ate up skyfathers and spit them out.

i usually respect your opinions, jun, but i certainly don't need to be told what i'm thinking. i would like to know where and when his defeat by orion was retconned, though.