Originally posted by peejayd
* i think our beliefs are somewhat the same but, i just want to point out why only worship the Father? do you worship Christ or not? i worship both Christ and the Father, as the apostles and disciples also did...
Christ is our advocate with the Father. We worship God the Father, through Christ, it isn't direct worship as he claimed all glory to the Father. To worship the Father is Christ's goal for us. Thus, while Christ is Christ, his desire is for us to love the Father and our neighbors. Christ's glory is given from the Father, not from us.
Because of your manner of discussion, I will go heavily with the Bible for the rest my response. For those that aren't into Biblical quotes, you can skip to the bottom and read my final comments and not miss my point.
These are the statements in the New Testament dictating worship:
John 4:23
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
The Father seeketh such to worship him.
Matthew 4:9-10
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.Luke 4:7-8
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve
It is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew 15:6-9
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Jesus quoting God the Father's words to Esaias.
Revelation 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
The statement is "worship God" Referring to the Father.
John 14: 13-14, 26
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
That the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 16: 23-24, 26-27
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
• • •
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
"ye shall ask me nothing", "ye shall ask the Father in my name"
John 5: 43
43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
"I am come in my Father’s name"
John 10: 25
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
"I do in my Father’s name"
John 15: 16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
"ye shall ask of the Father in my name"
Many worship Christ, but Christ did not state such. Christ stated that we should worship the Father, through him. So if Christ is worshipped, it is worshipping the Father through him, not direct worship of Christ. Worship of Christ is worship of the Father. I worship Christ, but my worship of Christ is in fact be worship of the Father.
Originally posted by Alliance
hence polytheism
In a manner, yes. But I think common interpretation of the term polytheism is not the same as what the term actually means. You are correct, but general public views it as Greek, Egyptian, or other mythologies in which one chooses a deity, and then worships that one. This is not the same as my view of Deity. We do not have a choice as to which we should worship, there is only one to worship. I think this is different than the typical view of polytheism.
Polytheism recognizes many gods....you can chose one to worship specifically(like a patron god)...say Huitzilopochtli...but you still recognize Tlaloc and will pray to him when you want rain.
This is similar to Christianity...and polytheism (to my knowledge) is the best term if the holy triumverate is three seperate entities. Its just that there are only three gods and not hundreds.
If the holy triumverate is one god manifesting himself in many forms, its henotheistic.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I have never once tried to weasel my way out of anything on this forum. No need to. At the time I did not feel like reading mashattav-type posts (that man ain't human the way he writes). But lately I have started to write very verbose posts myself. Nevertheless, God lives (is real and exists) despite your "so-called refutations." Watch, one day you will stand before God and give an account for every single sin that you have ever committed. Actually believers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Jesus is our Judge because our sins are paid for by His atoning sacrifice and Blood). But unbeliever's sins are still hanging over their heads as it were. Those sins just keep on accumulating and building up. One day each and every person who does not know Jesus will face the wrath of God, the righteous Judge, and they will give account for their cumulative sins. Then the books
(records of every sin you have committed or thought will be opened). Then the Lamb's Book of Life will be opened. If your name is written therein then all of your sins will not held against you. But if not, then you will suffer for eternity in the lake of fire for each and every sin that you committed. I will stand at the Judgment seat of Jesus Christ but not for my sins (remember my sins have already preceded me into judgment and been washed in Jesus' shed Blood. Jesus Christ already suffered for my sins. My sins have already been judged and dealt with. Now I will stand before Jesus to receive or not receive rewards. I believe that I have many rewards coming to me. But I do not gloat about them. I just endeavor to stay humble and keep doing the Lord's will in the meantime until I stand before Him. I will be in Heaven thinking about this moment in time when we had this conversation. I wish there was a way I could wager everything that I own to prove to you how much I believe that God is real. But you will just have to wait until you die (and the cold part is you don't know when that will be. It could happen at any moment).The Bible states,
[b]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
(Hebrews 9:27).Anyhoo, just know that I told you (and the rest of you reading this post).
[/B]
Now why should i be scared or believe something that doesnt exist? Even if the Christian god does exist, he's a SOFTY. He wouldnt be able to bear to see an atheist like me suffer eternal damnation 😉 .
Originally posted by Alliance
Polytheism recognizes many gods....you can chose one to worship specifically(like a patron god)...say Huitzilopochtli...but you still recognize Tlaloc and will pray to him when you want rain.This is similar to Christianity...and polytheism (to my knowledge) is the best term if the holy triumverate is three seperate entities. Its just that there are only three gods and not hundreds.
If the holy triumverate is one god manifesting himself in many forms, its henotheistic.
Yes, your definition is close, I think the idea of choice of Gods makes me leery of accepting the term. In Christianity, you worship God the father, no choice as to another, and never pray to another.
Originally posted by Alliance
But you recgonize Christ and the Holy spirit as parts of the divine entity. They are part of one god, but seperate entities.
No, they aren't part of one god. We are polytheistic in that Christ, the Holy Spirit (the third individual in the Godhead), and God the Father are entirely separate and distinct beings as you and I are separate entities, yet we recognize all Christ and God the Father as Gods, and I believe we would state that the Holy Spirit either is or will be a God. We just worship one though.
Originally posted by Alliance
I believe "monotheism" was incorrectly installed to provide the mechanism you provided...rejection of other religion's gods.
I think that monotheism was a product of Trinitarian doctrine, and Judaisms abandonment of Hebrew belief in Gods. I believe that the definition of "gods" as used in Genesis was altered to fit the monotheistic conflict between pre-Moses and post-Moses period, thus the idea/definition of "multiplicity of power or majesty" was created to assuage those that could not grasp the statements Moses made about singular God. Christ as God threw the Christians for a loop, because they couldn't reconcile more than one God with the remnants of Moses teachings. If Moses had spoken clearly about it, there would not be the mess that is Trinitarian Doctrine. But then Moses never claimed to be good with words, in fact, he claimed the opposite.
Originally posted by Regret
Christ is our advocate with the Father. We worship God the Father, through Christ, it isn't direct worship as he claimed all glory to the Father. To worship the Father is Christ's goal for us. Thus, while Christ is Christ, his desire is for us to love the Father and our neighbors. Christ's glory is given from the Father, not from us.Because of your manner of discussion, I will go heavily with the Bible for the rest my response. For those that aren't into Biblical quotes, you can skip to the bottom and read my final comments and not miss my point.
These are the statements in the New Testament dictating worship:
The Father seeketh such to worship him.
It is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Jesus quoting God the Father's words to Esaias.
The statement is "worship God" Referring to the Father.
That the Father may be glorified in the Son.
"ye shall ask me nothing", "ye shall ask the Father in my name"
"I am come in my Father’s name"
"I do in my Father’s name"
"ye shall ask of the Father in my name"
Many worship Christ, but Christ did not state such. Christ stated that we should worship the Father, through him. So if Christ is worshipped, it is worshipping the Father through him, not direct worship of Christ. Worship of Christ is worship of the Father. I worship Christ, but my worship of Christ is in fact be worship of the Father.
* albeit, let us take for consideration to what the Bible says if a servant of God is worshipped...
"And when it came to pass that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
But Peter raised him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man."
The Acts 10:25-26
* Saint Peter rejected worship...
"And when the multitude saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voice, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercury, because he was the chief speaker.
And the priest of Jupiter whose temple was before the city, [I]brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the multitudes.
But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they rent their garments, and sprang forth among the multitude, crying out
and saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and bring you good tidings, that ye should turn from these vain things unto a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:"
The Acts 14:11-15[/I]
* Saint Barnabas and Saint Paul also rejected worship...
"And I John am he that heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that showed me these things.
And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren the prophets, and with them that keep the words of this book: worship God."
Revelation 22:8-9
* even an angel of God rejected worship... but the angel gives a recommendation as to whom we should worship... we should worship God...
"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
Matthew 4:10
"And Jesus answered and said unto him, It is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
Luke 4:8
* even Christ Himself said that the one should be worshipped is God... but is Christ also a God to be worshipped?
"Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"
Titus 2:13
"Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:"
II Peter 1:1
* according to Saint Paul and Saint Peter, Christ is a great God and Savior...
"And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."
Hebrews 1:6
* the Father Himself told His angels to worship Christ... moreso for us, humans should worship Christ...
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in his own glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels."
Luke 9:26
* we must remember that Christ has His own glory, as the Father has His... so the worship should be for the Father AND Christ...
"Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me."
John 14:1
* it's like a "package-deal", my friend, worship the Father AND Christ...
"Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, even he that denieth the Father and the Son."
I John 2:22
* he who denies the Father AND Christ is called the anti-Christ... so what should we do?
"That all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him."
John 5:23
* we should honor Christ as we honor the Father... we should honor, worship and accept both the Father and Christ... 😉
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So you have two Gods ?
* worshipping two Gods, as long as it is the Father and Christ, is not a problem...
Originally posted by Regret
Unless Christ and the Bible lied, or at the very least misled, they must be two distinct individuals, not two instances of the same entity.
Originally posted by Alliance
Polytheism recognizes many gods....you can chose one to worship specifically(like a patron god)...say Huitzilopochtli...but you still recognize Tlaloc and will pray to him when you want rain.This is similar to Christianity...and polytheism (to my knowledge) is the best term if the holy triumverate is three seperate entities. Its just that there are only three gods and not hundreds.
If the holy triumverate is one god manifesting himself in many forms, its henotheistic.
* there are many gods stated in the Bible, but only the Father and Christ are said for us to worship...
Originally posted by Alliance
But you recgonize Christ and the Holy spirit as parts of the divine entity. They are part of one god, but seperate entities.I believe "monotheism" was incorrectly installed to provide the mechanism you provided...rejection of other religion's gods.
* the Bible states that there really is a Godhead, which is the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit...
* the Bible does NOT say that the Godhead is the Trinity in which there are three persons in one God, and that three persons are equal... 😉
Peejayed, you really have no clue where your belief came from and why it developed as it did..................I'm done trying to explain it........you must look into the history...........anthropology!!!!............. 😖mart:
sometimes a name means something also..........I only mention it cause I'm doing a study of ancient names. ..................
Mine............A bee " industrious", to speak kind words.............."...funny how that seems to be kinda ( well?)....hmmm... like me... the first time Deborah was mentioned ever and it was Hebrew and in the Takara, the most ancient.........I believe.
I do believe I live my name, though I didn't even know it..........what is yours?
PJ...........do your studies....................The stories you are relying on are older and are in many cultures across the world, or at least well not America............all the names are different, but the stories are the same, but the names are different.......study anthropology on these subjects..........
Originally posted by debbiejo
Peejayed, you really have no clue where your belief came from and why it developed as it did..................I'm done trying to explain it........you must look into the history...........anthropology!!!!............. 😖mart:
sometimes a name means something also..........I only mention it cause I'm doing a study of ancient names. ..................Mine............A bee " industrious", to speak kind words.............."...funny how that seems to be kinda ( well?)....hmmm... like me... the first time Deborah was mentioned ever and it was Hebrew and in the Takara, the most ancient.........I believe.
I do believe I live my name, though I didn't even know it..........what is yours?
Originally posted by debbiejo
PJ...........do your studies....................The stories you are relying on are older and are in many cultures across the world, or at least well not America............all the names are different, but the stories are the same, but the names are different.......study anthropology on these subjects..........
* what's your problem, girl? i'm not even talking to you... 😕
* oh, you wanna talk? well, last time, you claimed you believe on Jesus, but not on the Biblical Jesus... so, where did your "jesus" came from? your "jesus" was based on what? 😕
Originally posted by peejayd
* what's your problem, girl? i'm not even talking to you... 😕* oh, you wanna talk? well, last time, you claimed you believe on Jesus, but not on the Biblical Jesus... so, where did your "jesus" came from? your "jesus" was based on what? 😕
Why do Christians come off as mean people? Maybe you are following the wrong Jesus.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why do Christians come off as mean people? Maybe you are following the wrong Jesus.
It seems I was away sick when the Jesus's were being handed out. Which is a blessing I guess, at least I'm not following the wrong one (makes me think of gold tickets. Lot's of Jesus's, but only one is gold underneath his robe thingy.)
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
It seems I was away sick when the Jesus's were being handed out. Which is a blessing I guess, at least I'm not following the wrong one (makes me think of gold tickets. Lot's of Jesus's, but only one is gold underneath his robe thingy.)
I live by a simple rule: if a person is good, they should act like it.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why do Christians come off as mean people? Maybe you are following the wrong Jesus.
* because hypocrites are always onion-skinned? 😉
* you have to prove that i was mean first, boy... i was just saying a simple and plain truth... i really am not talking to ms.debbiejo and she comes out of nowhere to do what? 😕
* my argument still stands, and she has to answer my questions first, that is, if she likes to answer it... 😉