And I take issue with Dark_Dream's assertion that Superman is too perfect and Spiderman is too believable.
He has a loving family
Superpowers
A stable job
Lots of friends both in and out of the superhero community
One of the best little black books in comics
Is/was dating a redhead model actress
Yes, I too can identify with him, he has so many issues!!!
This is a LONG-ASS post. If you don't want-to/will-not read, then just admit that I am right, and move on. If not, then ENDURE, and respond. We'll see...
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And I take issue with Dark_Dream's assertion that Superman is too perfect and Spiderman is too believable.He has a loving family
Superpowers
A stable job
Lots of friends both in and out of the superhero community
One of the best little black books in comics
Is/was dating a redhead model actressYes, I too can identify with him, he has so many issues!!!
Wrong. He has Aunt May. In her almost-death-bed.
Right. ...That has cost him more pain than he would ever want.
Are you f*ckin' kidding me? He was a FUGITIVE from "S.H.I.E.L.D.," for MONTHS!
...Ok. Agreed. I can't argue against that. It's true. But Dick Grayson still beats him. And, he isn't a player. He LOVED EVERY one of those girls.
HAHAHA. He SACRIFICED his happiness, to get his SID, and Aunt May back. MJ doesn't even KNOW that she used to know him now!
Peter Parker is THE MOST TRAGIC comic-book hero, of ALL TIME!!!! Don't believe me?! He uses his comedy as a DEFENSE mechanism!!! Peter Parker is a shy, nerdy, GENIUS-LEVEL, human male, while SpiderMan, is a NARCISSISTIC, ASSH*LE, ARROGANT, COMEDIC, GENIUS, SuperHero! They are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT personality personas!!!! Pete uses "SpiderMan," as a weapon against his enemies, and as a shield against his greatest fear: HIMSELF! He CANNOT STAND being PETER PARKER! Peter Parker causes EVERYTHING BAD to happen/occur (NOT really, but he FEELS that he does)!
SpiderMan's Tragedies (to list ONLY A FEW):
Both parents dead
Indirectly responsible for his Uncle's death
Indirectly responsible for his girlfriends death (Gwen)
His best friend became his worst enemy... then died (Harry)
He gets cloned and doesn't know whether or not he's a "real" person
He (falsely) finds out he is a clone, which leads him to leave his pregnant wife and goes into a fit of depression
He and Mary Jane have a stillborn child (his daughter dies)
Aunt May dies (really... Amazing SM #400 ... I think) .... later to be ret-conned back to life
He gets arrested and jailed for murder (that Kaine committed)
His parents are revealed as being simulacrum (androids of a sort) that are programmed to kill him
The Green Goblin comes back from the "dead" to terrorize Peter Parker for months on end
His clone (Ben Reilly) eventually becomes his best friend/brother... then later is killed by the Green Goblin
Agonizing over his choices, always attempting to do right, he is nonetheless viewed with suspicion by the authorities, who seem unsure as to whether he is a helpful vigilante or a clever criminal.
...But, he is THE ONLY ONE that ALLOWS himself to FEEL/EXPERIENCE these things, because SpiderMan follows, NOT, a "Code-Of-Morals," BUT, a "Code-Of-Logic," and he ALWAYS follows logic. HE SAID: "Anyways, as I was saying, I have this affliction with "right and wrong." That used to guide my actions, but lately, I've been finding that "right and wrong" are illusions. So, for a while there, I was having trouble deciding what do, and what I should be basing it on. But, now, I think I've found something that works. From this moment on—if, that is I live through this—I'll base my decisions on logic. Sounds simple, right? Well, it's not. Logic is a pain in the ass. Seriously. Humans are beings of emotion, not logic. In other words, we're stupid. Well, you are. I don't know if I'm technically "human." But, anyways, seriously, following logic is a difficult thing to do." ...And, using that, he MADE SURE that he was the one that FELT THE PAIN/ANGUISH that NO ONE ELSE DID, so that they would NOT HAVE TO!
...And, let's not forget his INCREDIBLE training, teaching, and tempering!!! He BROKE himself, OVER AND, OVER, AND, OVER, JUST to be able to RE-Build himself, BETTER!!!! ...And, that was when he HAD NO POWERS (he later re-obtained them). ...Pete trained with BEST, BOLDEST, and BRIGHTEST, from S.H.I.E.L.D., AND, from OVER 20 DIFFERENT MASTERS, of 121 Different Martial Arts!!!!!
...And, yeah, NOT everyone in the "The Spider-Squad," has a genius-level intellect, BUT, the ones that DO, are smarter than the ones that do, as well, for "The Bat-Fam." Anthony Stark (Tony) OPENLY admitted (BUT, ONLY, to Pete), that Pete was SMARTER than Tony!!!! ...When the "Evil-Iron-Man-Army," DE-POWERED ANY AND ALL of the "Avengers," and Tony was left ALONE to STOP them, guess who he went to?! That's right. Pete. ...And, when he got there, guess who ALREADY had a plan, AND, a target, and a couple utility-belts, READY-TO-GO?! That's right. Pete.
...And, Pete has taught, trained, AND, tempered ANY AND ALL (well...MOST), of "The Spider-Squad," (Jess, Julia, Ben, Mattie, Anya) to be as SMART/QUICK-THINKING as him, and thus, "The Bat-Fam," and their intellects would be EQUAL to "The Spider-Squad!" ...BUT, the "Spiders," would have MORE/BETTER reflexes and quick-thinking!
Peter. Killing? He killed twice in his life. ...And he went insane from it. You forget that Peter DIED the night that Uncle Ben died. You forget that Peter was the REASON that Uncle Ben died? Peter Parker does not and cannot kill. BOTH times that he has killed, he was under another's control (and the time that he "killed," "SpiderCide," he did not kill him, but he sure-as-hell did not save him.).
Peter Parker went to hell and sacrificed his soul. ...So a demon could walk free (and innocent demon, but still). You don't understand that Peter does not see himself as a human, anymore. SpiderMan exists. SpiderMan is a hero. Peter Parker died, and what remains after Parker takes off that damn mask is a shell, a hollow, a waiting-sacrifice. I LOVE Bruce, and I give it to him, for taking the crap he did, and taking it in the way he did. ...BUT...
Arnold T. Blumberg places the end of the Silver Age in June 1973, when Spider-Man's girlfriend Gwen Stacy was killed in a story arc later dubbed "The Night Gwen Stacy Died", saying the era of "innocence" was ended by "the 'snap' heard round the comic book world — the startling, sickening snap of bone that heralded the death of Gwen Stacy."
Arnold T. Blumberg has argued that the shift was a gradual process that lasted from the late 1960s until 1973, ending with the death of Gwen Stacy—an "event that many name as the single most memorable moving moment in collective fan recall". He writes that there was a willingness by creators and publishers to tackle more mature themes, even if they "were filtered through the somewhat simplistic lens of the superhero," thus bringing an end to "the light-hearted, carefree Silver Age."
In The Amazing Spider-Man #121 (June 1973), by writer Gerry Conway and penciller Gil Kane, inked by John Romita Sr and Tony Mortellaro, the Green Goblin (Norman Osborn, who has identified Peter Parker as Spider-Man) holds Gwen Stacy captive on a tower of the George Washington Bridge. Spider-Man arrives to fight the Green Goblin. When the Goblin throws Gwen Stacy off the bridge, Spider-Man catches her by her leg with a string of web. He initially thinks he has saved her. After he pulls her back onto the bridge, he realizes she has already died. Peter is never sure if Gwen was dead before the fall or if his attempt to save her by breaking her fall snapped her neck. In shock and anger, Spider-Man nearly kills the Green Goblin in retaliation, but in the end, he realizes that he CANNOT, because SpiderMan cannot kill. ...And Peter is not longer living; one who is not loving can no longer kill ...And, to what end? What purpose, would kill GG accomplish? Peter does NOT kill Green, but The Goblin does die by his own accidental hand, and he is blamed for it (as he is everything else).
...Peter cannot help but wish for death now, but realizing that death found him years ago, he realizes that there is no world beyond this for him. There is ONLY this, and he realizes that he can no longer engage tin the human relationships that he once cherished. Because he is not human. He is more-than-human, and he because more-than-human, by being less-than-human. He is beneath the people of NYC. He takes their blame. Takes their taunts, their punishments. ...And he saves them. He is the embodiment of the what Uncle Ben died for. He is the salvation of those that cannot afford it for themselves, because he is their saving-grace. He is the symbol that takes EVERYTHING that world throws at him, because he CAN, and he doesn't even give it back. He takes. Ad he keeps it. Peter isn't looked-up-to in the MARVEL-Main-Universe, Like Bats is. He is frowned-upon. He is insulted, and belittled. ...And,only when Stark saw what was in him, did he become an Avenger. He takes it all, not because of morals, but because of a debt, a debt that he can never repay. Peter must rationalize EVERYTHING, because EVERYTHING he does is wrong!
Supes...Lost Lois. And brought her back. His ONE weakness is his GREATEST downfall, and he had LESS "BatFam-Training," than Stephanie Brown did, but can LIFT F*CKIN' PLANETS. ...Yeah, he is WAY more relatable than Pete...
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So...I take it his physical advantages don't matter? The fact he is stronger/bigger and maybe just as agile?Knowing more martial arts is fine and dandy. But a punch is still a punch.
I never said that they don't matter. They do. But you insinuated that they matter MORE than skill...which they don't. They matter less.
Originally posted by Dark_Dream7Ten
I never said that they don't matter. They do. But you insinuated that they matter MORE than skill...which they don't. They matter less.
Then why do martial arts tournaments, boxing, taekwondo, muay thai, whatever you care to name - have weight classes?
How much more skilled than Clark is Parker? Don't forget, he can learn in an hour what others would take years to learn....so him spending less time than Parker is not an issue.
Originally posted by Dark_Dream7Ten
This is a LONG-ASS post. If you don't want-to/will-not read, then just admit that I am right, and move on. If not, then ENDURE, and respond. We'll see...Wrong. He has Aunt May. In her almost-death-bed.
Right. ...That has cost him more pain than he would ever want.
Are you f*ckin' kidding me? He was a FUGITIVE from "S.H.I.E.L.D.," for MONTHS!
...Ok. Agreed. I can't argue against that. It's true. But Dick Grayson still beats him. And, he isn't a player. He LOVED EVERY one of those girls.
HAHAHA. He SACRIFICED his happiness, to get his SID, and Aunt May back. MJ doesn't even KNOW that she used to know him now!
Peter Parker is THE MOST TRAGIC comic-book hero, of ALL TIME!!!! Don't believe me?! He uses his comedy as a DEFENSE mechanism!!! Peter Parker is a shy, nerdy, GENIUS-LEVEL, human male, while SpiderMan, is a NARCISSISTIC, ASSH*LE, ARROGANT, COMEDIC, GENIUS, SuperHero! They are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT personality personas!!!! Pete uses "SpiderMan," as a weapon against his enemies, and as a shield against his greatest fear: HIMSELF! He CANNOT STAND being PETER PARKER! Peter Parker causes EVERYTHING BAD to happen/occur (NOT really, but he FEELS that he does)!
SpiderMan's Tragedies (to list ONLY A FEW):
Both parents dead
Indirectly responsible for his Uncle's death
Indirectly responsible for his girlfriends death (Gwen)
His best friend became his worst enemy... then died (Harry)
He gets cloned and doesn't know whether or not he's a "real" person
He (falsely) finds out he is a clone, which leads him to leave his pregnant wife and goes into a fit of depression
He and Mary Jane have a stillborn child (his daughter dies)
Aunt May dies (really... Amazing SM #400 ... I think) .... later to be ret-conned back to life
He gets arrested and jailed for murder (that Kaine committed)
His parents are revealed as being simulacrum (androids of a sort) that are programmed to kill him
The Green Goblin comes back from the "dead" to terrorize Peter Parker for months on end
His clone (Ben Reilly) eventually becomes his best friend/brother... then later is killed by the Green GoblinAgonizing over his choices, always attempting to do right, he is nonetheless viewed with suspicion by the authorities, who seem unsure as to whether he is a helpful vigilante or a clever criminal.
...But, he is THE ONLY ONE that ALLOWS himself to FEEL/EXPERIENCE these things, because SpiderMan follows, NOT, a "Code-Of-Morals," BUT, a "Code-Of-Logic," and he ALWAYS follows logic. HE SAID: "Anyways, as I was saying, I have this affliction with "right and wrong." That used to guide my actions, but lately, I've been finding that "right and wrong" are illusions. So, for a while there, I was having trouble deciding what do, and what I should be basing it on. But, now, I think I've found something that works. From this moment on—if, that is I live through this—I'll base my decisions on logic. Sounds simple, right? Well, it's not. Logic is a pain in the ass. Seriously. Humans are beings of emotion, not logic. In other words, we're stupid. Well, you are. I don't know if I'm technically "human." But, anyways, seriously, following logic is a difficult thing to do." ...And, using that, he MADE SURE that he was the one that FELT THE PAIN/ANGUISH that NO ONE ELSE DID, so that they would NOT HAVE TO!
...And, let's not forget his INCREDIBLE training, teaching, and tempering!!! He BROKE himself, OVER AND, OVER, AND, OVER, JUST to be able to RE-Build himself, BETTER!!!! ...And, that was when he HAD NO POWERS (he later re-obtained them). ...Pete trained with BEST, BOLDEST, and BRIGHTEST, from S.H.I.E.L.D., AND, from OVER 20 DIFFERENT MASTERS, of 121 Different Martial Arts!!!!!
...And, yeah, NOT everyone in the "The Spider-Squad," has a genius-level intellect, BUT, the ones that DO, are smarter than the ones that do, as well, for "The Bat-Fam." Anthony Stark (Tony) OPENLY admitted (BUT, ONLY, to Pete), that Pete was SMARTER than Tony!!!! ...When the "Evil-Iron-Man-Army," DE-POWERED ANY AND ALL of the "Avengers," and Tony was left ALONE to STOP them, guess who he went to?! That's right. Pete. ...And, when he got there, guess who ALREADY had a plan, AND, a target, and a couple utility-belts, READY-TO-GO?! That's right. Pete.
...And, Pete has taught, trained, AND, tempered ANY AND ALL (well...MOST), of "The Spider-Squad," (Jess, Julia, Ben, Mattie, Anya) to be as SMART/QUICK-THINKING as him, and thus, "The Bat-Fam," and their intellects would be EQUAL to "The Spider-Squad!" ...BUT, the "Spiders," would have MORE/BETTER reflexes and quick-thinking!
Peter. Killing? He killed twice in his life. ...And he went insane from it. You forget that Peter DIED the night that Uncle Ben died. You forget that Peter was the REASON that Uncle Ben died? Peter Parker does not and cannot kill. BOTH times that he has killed, he was under another's control (and the time that he "killed," "SpiderCide," he did not kill him, but he sure-as-hell did not save him.).
Peter Parker went to hell and sacrificed his soul. ...So a demon could walk free (and innocent demon, but still). You don't understand that Peter does not see himself as a human, anymore. SpiderMan exists. SpiderMan is a hero. Peter Parker died, and what remains after Parker takes off that damn mask is a shell, a hollow, a waiting-sacrifice. I LOVE Bruce, and I give it to him, for taking the crap he did, and taking it in the way he did. ...BUT...
Arnold T. Blumberg places the end of the Silver Age in June 1973, when Spider-Man's girlfriend Gwen Stacy was killed in a story arc later dubbed "The Night Gwen Stacy Died", saying the era of "innocence" was ended by "the 'snap' heard round the comic book world — the startling, sickening snap of bone that heralded the death of Gwen Stacy."
Arnold T. Blumberg has argued that the shift was a gradual process that lasted from the late 1960s until 1973, ending with the death of Gwen Stacy—an "event that many name as the single most memorable moving moment in collective fan recall". He writes that there was a willingness by creators and publishers to tackle more mature themes, even if they "were filtered through the somewhat simplistic lens of the superhero," thus bringing an end to "the light-hearted, carefree Silver Age."
In The Amazing Spider-Man #121 (June 1973), by writer Gerry Conway and penciller Gil Kane, inked by John Romita Sr and Tony Mortellaro, the Green Goblin (Norman Osborn, who has identified Peter Parker as Spider-Man) holds Gwen Stacy captive on a tower of the George Washington Bridge. Spider-Man arrives to fight the Green Goblin. When the Goblin throws Gwen Stacy off the bridge, Spider-Man catches her by her leg with a string of web. He initially thinks he has saved her. After he pulls her back onto the bridge, he realizes she has already died. Peter is never sure if Gwen was dead before the fall or if his attempt to save her by breaking her fall snapped her neck. In shock and anger, Spider-Man nearly kills the Green Goblin in retaliation, but in the end, he realizes that he CANNOT, because SpiderMan cannot kill. ...And Peter is not longer living; one who is not loving can no longer kill ...And, to what end? What purpose, would kill GG accomplish? Peter does NOT kill Green, but The Goblin does die by his own accidental hand, and he is blamed for it (as he is everything else).
...Peter cannot help but wish for death now, but realizing that death found him years ago, he realizes that there is no world beyond this for him. There is ONLY this, and he realizes that he can no longer engage tin the human relationships that he once cherished. Because he is not human. He is more-than-human, and he because more-than-human, by being less-than-human. He is beneath the people of NYC. He takes their blame. Takes their taunts, their punishments. ...And he saves them. He is the embodiment of the what Uncle Ben died for. He is the salvation of those that cannot afford it for themselves, because he is their saving-grace. He is the symbol that takes EVERYTHING that world throws at him, because he CAN, and he doesn't even give it back. He takes. Ad he keeps it. Peter isn't looked-up-to in the MARVEL-Main-Universe, Like Bats is. He is frowned-upon. He is insulted, and belittled. ...And,only when Stark saw what was in him, did he become an Avenger. He takes it all, not because of morals, but because of a debt, a debt that he can never repay. Peter must rationalize EVERYTHING, because EVERYTHING he does is wrong!
Supes...Lost Lois. And brought her back. His ONE weakness is his GREATEST downfall, and he had LESS "BatFam-Training," than Stephanie Brown did, but can LIFT F*CKIN' PLANETS. ...Yeah, he is WAY more relatable than Pete...
Superman spent a long time believing he was the last of his race.
Superman watched as his second father died of a heart attack, and couldn't save him.
Superman's wife almost left him because he chose one life over another.
Superman has plenty of tragedy, something anyone that had read the comics, would know.
How is Parker a better fighter than Clark?
If they are depowered, we have to remember that Clark will still be the faster, stronger--e.g. more athletic man. That plays a big part in how good a fighter you are.
That coupled with the fact that he's no less trained, and more experienced at fighting, means he curb stomps.