FF4 VS these 4 xmen i chose

I didn't read where the stipulation was the classic versions of the characters (the 19 pages were a bit intimidating). I was going by current versions. Most classic mutants are far weaker than they are today, so if we're comparing FF#1 FF vs. first appearance of those X-men, I agree - the X-men get creamed.

But the current version of these X-men are at the very least a match for the FF. The "fight' between Sue and Jean wasn't really a fight. Sue stopped Jean, but that wouldn't imply how an open battle would go between them any more than Wolverine jumping in and slashing Magneto open in a battle with the X-men implies how a one-on-one fight between the two of them would go. Even ignoring the 3 degree vs. 2 degree quick draw factor (which is a factor worth discussing, since a Green Lantern was beaten on the same principle), the telepathy must give the edge to Jean.

Iceman today is a different animal than classic Iceman. You're right, Classic Iceman would have been crushed, but today's Iceman controls ambient heat. He could simply dissolve himself so Torch can't find him, or turn himself into water vapor and just...remove the heat from Torch entirely. Given that Torch has been put out by Fire Extinguishers before (which is all kinds of messed up), it's not like it'll take all that much to put him down. Torch would have to pretty much scorch everything to try to evaporate an Iceman he couldn't see. He may take that approach, but far more likely, Iceman's stealth tactics would get to Torch first. And as you know, I never refer to abilities that I haven't actually seen in the comic myself at some point, so he's done that before!

And I think we both agree that Nightcrawler is relatively worthless. lol.

I said myself, despite backing F4 and thinking that they would win, with good reasons, regardless, that current X-Men would stand a better chance.

But in the past, which seems to be what we're referring to now and should have been the whole time, it's no match.

-AC

past f4 win...

curent xmen have a decent chance...

I agree that the classic FF would probably beat those X-men. Nightcrawler couldn't teleport five times in a minute without passing out, Iceman's best trick was throwing snowballs, and let's not get started on Jean Grey.

Currently, which I think is more relevant anyways, the FF get creamed. Jean Grey and Phoenix are now synonomous. She and the Phoenix Force are more than bonded, they form a single being. Jean Grey is the perfect host body for the Phoenix, and the Phoenix is natural in Jean Grey now. They are two parts of the same being.

As for Jean not being able to produce an airtight bubble, she's done stuff with her TK that is much more impressive than that, she can hold 100 items in the air at once, have them all moving in diffeent ways, and can feel it when someone touches one of them.

Instead of me constantly defending my case, why don't you tell me how the FF can beat the X-men. What could they possibly do to Iceman or Phoenix?

"I agree that the classic FF would probably beat those X-men. Nightcrawler couldn't teleport five times in a minute without passing out, Iceman's best trick was throwing snowballs, and let's not get started on Jean Grey."

No, there's no probably. It's definate.

"Currently, which I think is more relevant anyways, the FF get creamed. Jean Grey and Phoenix are now synonomous. She and the Phoenix Force are more than bonded, they form a single being. Jean Grey is the perfect host body for the Phoenix, and the Phoenix is natural in Jean Grey now. They are two parts of the same being."

You have such difficulty differentiating fact and opinion, what you just posted is complete nonsense. Stop clinging to Phoenix, she is not relevant to this thread. Jean Grey is.

FF get creamed by the X-Men? Never in a million years. Most ridiculous statement ever.

"As for Jean not being able to produce an airtight bubble, she's done stuff with her TK that is much more impressive than that, she can hold 100 items in the air at once, have them all moving in diffeent ways, and can feel it when someone touches one of them."

So? Has she formed bubbles? No. So why are you assuming she can? Coz that's all you ever do, assume and claim it as fact.

"Instead of me constantly defending my case, why don't you tell me how the FF can beat the X-men. What could they possibly do to Iceman or Phoenix?"

Well seeing as the 4 X-Men chosen were Jean Grey, Ice-Man, Nightcrawler and Colossus, again I don't see your rationale with involving Phoenix. She is not relevant, she was not specified. Stop bringing her in for your own floundering debate.

What could the F4 do to Ice-Man? Classic Ice-Man (which again, seems to be the agreement, in which case the F4 slaughter it) would be dead in minutes. Nowadays? Well he can do jack shit to Johnny, Sue has more than enough capability to use the new powers to take the fight to him, Reed could come up with any number of ways to neutralise or quell his powers by knowing what he can and cannot do, Thing is the only one really vulnerable.

Classics Vs Classics the F4 take it with unbelievable ease.

Nowadays they still take it, though the X-Men have a better shot.

Since NOWADAYS X-Men has Phoenix, and Phoenix was NOT specified, Jean Grey was (Jean Grey, born a telepath, not born the phoenix).

F4 take it.

If you're gonna reply, stop boning the Phoenix theory. She's no part of this thread and only became involved when you brought her into it on the first page.

-AC

Nowadays? Well he can do jack shit to Johnny, Sue has more than enough capability to use the new powers to take the fight to him, Reed could come up with any number of ways to neutralise or quell his powers by knowing what he can and cannot do, Thing is the only one really vulnerable.

flame on sue would be killed by iceman in seconds, with a mere thought he'd freeze her heart...

Jonny isn't gonna let his sister die is he?

Well then. All it takes is a bubble. Which can be, as we've seen in multiple F4 comics, configured to attack out while not being attacked in return.

-AC

johhny will have to deal with jean beforehand... i believe she could take him...

despite his raw power he is not as experienced as sue...

and he's not the calmest under pressure either...

I'm not sure about all this separating off into four individual fights, nor of power analysis. FF have never had the most awesome powers, they are rather generic, cf. The Incredibles, or Family Guy/ Simpsons superhero parody episodes. Their brilliance has always been as a unit. On paper, what chance them versus Galactus? Probably 0. myriad more 0's 1 percent.

Herald Storm, also has some sort of mind reading powers also if you read The F4's when he was taken by The Big G. J. Storm can see things in people that they are unaware of. Thoughts and such. So that being said I highly doubt that Jeans going to have the jump on him.

IIIIFFFF.. we are talking about todays current heroes. Which this thread WASN'T originally.

But oh well.

F4 still wins BIG!

BJG

Well, if you wanna get REALLY technical about it (oh no, here's Demigawd being really technical again!), then CURRENT FF includes Johnny without his Herald upgrade, since he lost it in the last issue.

(of course, if you wanna be really technical about it, then CURRENT Jean is dead)

(of course, if you wanna be really, really technical about it, then CURRENT Jean is the Dark Phoenix again in that Endsong series)

Aye...mi cabeza.

BUT if you wanna be really, really ON TOPIC, we're pretty much seeing it's agreed that it's classic forms.

-AC

;p

Then this shouldn't be much of a debate. FF wins in Classic vs. Classic. I'm still too lazy to dig through the stipulation on that, though....

I think a far more interesting debate would be current. And don't we prefer interesting debates? The classic vs. classic thing is kinda cheesing out because it's so clearly biased towards the FF.

I never created the thread.

No one specified any different. For Phoenix to apply she would have to be current, she was not mentioned. Also, if we're going current then she shouldn't even be included coz she's dead. So having Nightcrawler, Ice-Man, Colossus and a random 4th member would be more appropriate.

-AC

Ok, yes, Classic versions the FF would most likely win.

But, seeing as how most of this thread has been with the current forms, I will continue to debate this, with current forms.

Jean Grey, and Phoenix are one and the same. That is not an opinion, that has been stated in the comics. They are two parts of the same being, and as I said Jean Grey and Phoenix are synonymous. Also, as an uber-powerful telekinetic, Jean Grey can manipulate matter on a molecular level, so if you think she can't make a shield(which you haven't proved wrong, just stated that you think it's wrong) than how about she form an airtight barrier around Ms. Fantastic or Johny(whichever we're using as the current Invisi-person) out of matter, holding it in place with her teke. She CAN do that.

Also, yes, Iceman can do shit to Human Torch(be it Sue or Johny), he can create temperatures that go near absolute zero, Torch's flames wouldn't last through that, even if he keeps them charged. Thing and Mr. Fantastic can't do anything in this fight without preptime, which was never mentioned as a stipulation, so we can't really use that.(If we could, I'm sure the X-men could bring something to the battle, what with allies like super-geneticist Beast and the world's greatest inventor Forge)

As for what they could do to the X-men, you never said aythig about what they could do, just that they could stand up to them. How? I've stated ways that Jean could get around the problem of invisible shields, how could the FF get around having to deal with Iceman and Jean(AKA Phoenix)?

"Ok, yes, Classic versions the FF would most likely win."

Why are you so scared to admit that if it's classics, the X-Men would get slaughtered? There's no MOST likely. It's a definate.

"But, seeing as how most of this thread has been with the current forms, I will continue to debate this, with current forms."

You started it off, because you know that without them you can say nothing.

"Jean Grey, and Phoenix are one and the same. That is not an opinion, that has been stated in the comics."

Fact: She was born Jean Grey, a telepathic and telekinetic mutant. She was not born as or with The Phoenix Force. They are not one and the same so stop humping the theory and accept fact. Coz that is a fact and it's undebateable.

"They are two parts of the same being, and as I said Jean Grey and Phoenix are synonymous."

They're one and the same but two parts of another being? Contradiction of the highest order. Jean Grey is not the phoenix without the phoenix force.

"Jean Grey can manipulate matter on a molecular level, so if you think she can't make a shield(which you haven't proved wrong, just stated that you think it's wrong) than how about she form an airtight barrier around Ms. Fantastic or Johny(whichever we're using as the current Invisi-person) out of matter, holding it in place with her teke. She CAN do that."

Well you haven't proven it right either, so we're even. History suggests her powers cannot do that. That's what I'm going by, you're going by what you want. Why are you saying "How about is she..."? Who said she's gonna get a chance? You have some simulation of this fight in your head and you are posting according to it. Jean is gonna float there holding pieces of matter around Jonny or Sue while Thing and Richards are around? No she's not.

"Also, yes, Iceman can do shit to Human Torch(be it Sue or Johny), he can create temperatures that go near absolute zero, Torch's flames wouldn't last through that, even if he keeps them charged."

Torch's supernova is much more powerful than anything Ice-Man can come up with and if there's no moisture in the air, Ice-Man can do jack.

"Thing and Mr. Fantastic can't do anything in this fight without preptime, which was never mentioned as a stipulation, so we can't really use that.(If we could, I'm sure the X-men could bring something to the battle, what with allies like super-geneticist Beast and the world's greatest inventor Forge) "

Where on Earth did you get the impression that Thing needs preptime? Funny. Richards doesn't need preptime. He's just extremely formidable if he has it. Doesn't lessen his role. When did Beast and Forge become relevant? Richards is smarter than the two of them combined and that is a fact. Beast is a alchemist by trade and all Forge has is mechanical intellect. Greatest inventor on Earth? The F4 fight the greatest inventor regularly and it aint Forge.

"As for what they could do to the X-men, you never said aythig about what they could do, just that they could stand up to them. How? I've stated ways that Jean could get around the problem of invisible shields, how could the FF get around having to deal with Iceman and Jean(AKA Phoenix)?"

I've been stating it for the whole thread, are you incapable of reading? Everything you've said I've countered with either a fact or reinforced opinion.

Jean is AKA Phoenix now? Make up your mind. Jean was specified, not Phoenix. Jean is not Phoenix, realise this before you post again. Benjamin Grimm wasn't The Thing. Peter Parker wasn't Spider-Man. Jean Grey wasn't Phoenix.

Currents? Phoenix is dead. So replace her. She's only in this thread because you keep involving her. She isn't at all relevent.

-AC

😎 -AC It's always a good time to hear somebody put nonsense in it's place. Back in some X-FANBOY'S head, where it belongs.

It's like they've got a storyboard that they've put together but they are continually changing the versions of the characters in the middle of the board. Or (to self) it would be cool if this character could do this. So it is so. They can.

It's great.

BJG

No offense Benwardo, but given your name and avatar it's pretty obvious you're biased.

I like the F4 more but it doesn't take a genius to see the X-Men are outclassed.

-AC

Come on now if i changed avatar to Britney Spears being orgasmic (P.S. i know thats A.J.) it wouldn't mean that I'm biased towards loving her last album. I'm just saying 99% of all X-MEN apologist on these pages do the exact same thing no matter whom they're pitted against in this case it happens to be THE THING. Savvy?

No offense taken 🙂

BJG

-AC and also i enjoy your retorts.

BJG