FF4 VS these 4 xmen i chose

I have nothing against the X-Men.

Without them, no Wolverine, no Phoenix, no Onslaught, no Magneto, no huge mutant storylines, no X-Factor, no AOA, no Cable, no Excalibur, no ... do I have to continue ?

I always considered the X-stories a little bit more adult-oriented - because they always have to fight against prejudices - than the FF-stories (who spend most of their time in other dimensions saving alien planets).

Don't make me chose between the FF and the X-Men, both have great storylines at times, but both also can suck big time, depending on the writer.

who?-kid

I feel ya!

BJG

Why do you care about my exact wording. The X-men would still stand a slim chance, so I put most likely. So, whatever.

What are you talking about, this debate started out with us debating about the current versions, so I will continue to debate current versions.

FACT: Ben Grimm was born Ben Grimm, no powers, therefore we shouldn't use him with powers. (that's fun logic to use) Fact is, secondary mutations have given mutants powers after they were born. Beast has a healing factor now, Iceman is literally made out of ice now, and Jean Grey is Phoenix. She has the omega level telekinesis and telepathy no matter what you say. The COMICS HAVE STATED THAT SHE AND PHOENIX ARE ONE. The comics I'm talking about are more recent than whatever the hell you've apparently "read".

They were one two entities, but now those two entities make up one being, no contradiction there.

Show me where history suggests she can't create an airtight telekinetic bubble, because that's news to me.

Also, my simulations are examples of how Jean can use her powers. And yes, she could do that without Reed and Thing doing anything, because she can alos be holding them back at the same time.

Even if Human Torch manages to dissolve all of the moisture on earth, he'd still have to evaporate the moisture in the rest of the FF and him(her)self, because Iceman can get to that too, he has been shown to be able to. Also, Supernova heat would kill his teammates, but even using that, Iceman can counter that. He can get closer to abolute zero than anything. No heat can reverse the temperatures he goes to enough to do any damage. Also, that would known out Human Torch...

For Reed Richards to be able to do anything but die in a fight against Phoenix he'd need preptime. Same for Thing, but Thing couldn't do anything much even with preptime.

Jean is AKA Phoenix. I guess you didn't know then, but AKA stands for Also known as. So saying Jean AKA Phoenix means Jean, also known as, Phoenix. So, what was your point again...

Yes, you've stated your so-called FACTS about how the FF could defend themselves against the X-men, but my question was, what can the FF do to the X-men to win the fight. I'd seriously want to know what you think Human Torch or Invisi-whoever can do to stop Iceman or Phoenix.

Also, for currents, Jean AKA Phoenix is alive, read Phoenix: Endsong

lastly, BenjaminJGrimm, don't even post here without saying things other than insults towards me and stupid little opinion riddled posts about how the FF would win in 4 flat and not even saying what the hell they could do to the cosmic force known as Phoenix(AKA Jean) and Iceman.

Thank you, have horrible days you insufferable, "ridiculus" fools.

I'm not going to get too involved in this thread, since it seems there isn't any agreement about even which versions of the characters people are debating, but I'll say this:

You're both right about Phoenix and Jean Grey. This has been retconned and cross-retconned and counter-retconned so many times that there's really been no consensus even within Marvel itself. There are writers who write that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same - the Phoenix Entity just amped Jean's powers to the max, and what we're seeing whenever we see Phoenix is Jean at her potential. It took the Phoenix to unlock that potential, but it was always something Jean was capable of doing. This was a common thought with the 90s X-writers and all their stories have that bend. There are other writers, the ones immediately after the Phoenix storyline, and more recently, who write stories with them being two separate entities, with Jean not just being empowered by the Phoenix, but being *replaced* by the Phoenix.

So I guess depending on what school of thought you subscribe to, you're both right. Either way, neither of you can really take the rather...haughty stances you're taking on the subject and smack your heads in disbelief at what you're reading, lol.

X-Men wouldn't stand a slim chance, not classics.

"What are you talking about, this debate started out with us debating about the current versions, so I will continue to debate current versions."

Yes but this debate also started out involving the 4 people specified in the thread title. YOU involved Phoenix on the second page of this thread. No one had brought her in before you, know why? Coz she's not in this fight, she isn't relevant.

"FACT: Ben Grimm was born Ben Grimm, no powers, therefore we shouldn't use him with powers. (that's fun logic to use)"

Yes but the thread title doesn't say Ben Grimm, it says the Fantastic Four. Ben Grimm, Jonny Storm, Sue Storm and Reed Richards became the Fantastic Four when they got their powers. Jean Grey was born Jean Grey and the only powers she had was her mind. This is all getting needlessly brought up because you badly want to weasel Phoenix into this fight and it's clear that she isn't relevant.

"and Jean Grey is Phoenix. She has the omega level telekinesis and telepathy no matter what you say. The COMICS HAVE STATED THAT SHE AND PHOENIX ARE ONE. The comics I'm talking about are more recent than whatever the hell you've apparently "read"."

First you say she's PRACTICALLY the Phoenix, then she's one and the same as the Phoenix, then you say her AND Phoenix (yes her AND, basically admitting subconsciously that they are, as we all know separate) are part of ANOTHER thing. What is it gonna be?

JEAN GREY from the X-Men is involved in this thread. The Phoenix nor the Phoenix FORCE were EVER mentioned or involved until YOU brought it in. She is NOT relevant to this thread and you are the only person who thinks so. Purely coz you want X-Men to win. Anything you say involving her is null and void. She's not part of this thread.

"They were one two entities, but now those two entities make up one being, no contradiction there."

No contradiction besides the many you've already made, tried to cover up, then made again.

"Show me where history suggests she can't create an airtight telekinetic bubble, because that's news to me."

Show me where history suggests she can. Thought so. If she's never done it why do I have any reason to believe she can? Jonny Storm hasn't PROVEN that he DOESN'T have the power to absorb the Sun. Shall I go and assume that he can purely because he hasn't proven incapable? No. Why? Coz we know he can't.

You are giving Jean a SPECIFIC ability that you have dreamt up when simulating this fight. "Well Jean will just do a bubble then, how about that?" She hasn't proven capable of doing so.

"Also, my simulations are examples of how Jean can use her powers. And yes, she could do that without Reed and Thing doing anything, because she can alos be holding them back at the same time."

Where did I say she couldn't? I just said that in the heat of a battle with the Fantasic Four, added to the fact that she hasn't got the greatest 3 mutants backing her up, and you've got a disaster waiting to happen. You didn't simulate how Jean COULD use her powers. You basically mapped out a whole battle punch by punch, move by move, according to how you'd like it. Sorry but it's just not gonna happen.

"Even if Human Torch manages to dissolve all of the moisture on earth, he'd still have to evaporate the moisture in the rest of the FF and him(her)self, because Iceman can get to that too, he has been shown to be able to. Also, Supernova heat would kill his teammates, but even using that, Iceman can counter that. He can get closer to abolute zero than anything. No heat can reverse the temperatures he goes to enough to do any damage. Also, that would known out Human Torch..."

Firstly Ice-Man cannot survive Jonny's nova blast. Erase that thought.

Secondly, Ice-Man cannot penetrate Sue's shield in any way. If they were in there, not only would they be shielded from Jonny's nova, they'd be safe from Jean and Ice-Man. So if a scenario and simulation is what you want, we can go hog wild and say that Sue protects Reed and Thing, Jonny goes nova killing Nightcrawler, Ice-Man and melting Colossus. If Jean manages to survive she has the F4 to deal with, which she couldn't.

See? I could think up a simulation and do it too. When I do it it's more believeable than "Yeah well Jean would get lots of stuff and cover them in". I don't use simulations and make them be my arguement because that's stupid.

"For Reed Richards to be able to do anything but die in a fight against Phoenix he'd need preptime. Same for Thing, but Thing couldn't do anything much even with preptime."

Again with Phoenix, she isn't involved in this thread except when you alone involve her. She isn't relevent. Funny how you say "X-Men cream the F4" but continually refer to a character not even in this fight.

"Jean is AKA Phoenix. I guess you didn't know then, but AKA stands for Also known as. So saying Jean AKA Phoenix means Jean, also known as, Phoenix. So, what was your point again..."

She's known as Phoenix. Exactly. She isn't ACTUALLY Phoenix until in possesses her. Before the Phoenix Saga, before Phoenix ever came into it, was Jean also known as Phoenix? No she was not. What was she? A Telepath and Telekinetic. I rest my case. Don't involve yourself in this thread if you're not gonna use the characters involved.

"Yes, you've stated your so-called FACTS about how the FF could defend themselves against the X-men, but my question was, what can the FF do to the X-men to win the fight. I'd seriously want to know what you think Human Torch or Invisi-whoever can do to stop Iceman or Phoenix."

Well I've said it in this post and posts before what the F4 could do to Ice-Man. So have other people. Again, clinging to Phoenix. Rather lame.

And to nail the coffin shut:

"Thank you, have horrible days you insufferable, "ridiculus" fools."

The above comment isn't something that should follow this:

"lastly, BenjaminJGrimm, don't even post here without saying things other than insults towards me and stupid little opinion riddled posts about how the FF would win"

Funny.

-AC

One example of Jean making an airtight bubble - when she flew Storm, Wolverine and Forge into space. Another example - when she flew herself and Wolverine from the edge of the sun back to Earth. It's gotta be airtight to keep air in there.

I was tired of Sentinel's lack of examples, so I couldn't help myself.

Hmm...

I don't know. I don't think this fight is as one sided as people are making it out to be. Like, for instance, the invisible "bubble" that would be used to protect (if necessary) the FF members. Couldn't Iceman just incase the bubble in ice by making a column of ice in the direction at which the FF were, and then continually reinforce it? That is feasible, it's basically a solid construct that bends light rending it 'invisible', things can collect on it (water, dirt, mist, etc.), and it hasn't been shown that the invisible fields emit any kind of temperature variance. As for Jean's TK, when she lifts/moves objects, she enshrouds or envelops them in telekenetic force, then moves them, so she should be able to envelop a force/solid energy construct bubble even though she hasn't been written to do so. It's within the bounds of her abilities. If the Xmen could locate the 'invisible' bubble field, they have means of attacking it. Like Nightcrawler teleporting inside of it (when/if it's located) and filling it with smoke.

On the flipside though, I see more scenarios of the FF winning than Team X. It would take a lot of ingenuity, and field stategy isn't the strong suit of any member of this X-team, especially against a mind like Reed's.

I still like my Nightcrawler kamikize scenario. 🙂 If he can take out the person wielding the invisible powers by teleporting them both into a wall or in the path of an oncoming jumbo jet's engine, he could at least be a factor. His sacrifice would mean the survival of his team. lol

His example was that Jean forming it outside of Sue's would make Sue suffocate.

How that's possible when Sue regulates how much air going in and out, I fail to see. Add to that the fact that she'll have to actually keep it around by concentrating. Which she isn't gonna be able to do in a fight against the Fan 4.

If you look at my wording, I never tried saying she could create an airtight bubble overall. The reason why I said she hasn't proven capable is because she hasn't proven capable of making a teleKINETIC bubble, as specified by Sentinel. Telepathic, yes. Telekinetic, no.

He was also assuming that she could, he had no examples so it's not like I'm going to give him them if all he keeps doing is saying "Yeah but Phoenix".

Bubble or not, it's ineffective in this fight due to the fact that she'd have to concentrate.

"when she flew herself and Wolverine from the edge of the sun back to Earth. It's gotta be airtight to keep air in there."

Exactly. Keep air IN. It kept them alive with enough air to go from the Sun to Earth. Why he thinks that Sue will suffocate with an entire air supply within her own bubble, plus the one Jean has put around her which by common sense, would have some kind of a gap, is completely beyond any reason.

Regardless of Sentinel Boy and his love of Phoenix. F4 win this fight.

-AC

😕 Sentinel Boy (AKA Bi-polarboy)

Let's get this straight. I didn't insult you. I insulted all X-FANBOYS that don't follow the the threads original standings. Just to make their case. So that their X-FRIENDS wont be cross with them for not stickin up for their X-boys and X-girls in ANY manner that would allow that particular X-character to win in any and all threads. If you fit into that above statement. So be it! You've got lots of like minded individuals here too.

Ok! How about this. Sue simultaneously encloses both Jeanphoenix and THE THING in separate force bubbles, then fuses them together (the force bubbles) and then THE THING rips Jeanphoenix's head from her shoulders and squishes it between his pinkie and thumb. That one works right. It can be just that simple.

The F4 still win. Ha.

BJG

Benjamin, you're not contributing to this thread. You're being an Fantastic Four fanboy, he's being an X-Men fanboy. You're as bad as each other. If you both can't keep to the thread boundaries then could you stop posting and ruining it? Thanks.

"I still like my Nightcrawler kamikize scenario. If he can take out the person wielding the invisible powers by teleporting them both into a wall or in the path of an oncoming jumbo jet's engine, he could at least be a factor. His sacrifice would mean the survival of his team. lol"

I like it too. It would finally get rid of Nightcrawler. I'd let the X-Men win if that was a sacrifice I had to make haha. I personally cannot see Nightcrawler being a factor.

"On the flipside though, I see more scenarios of the FF winning than Team X. It would take a lot of ingenuity, and field stategy isn't the strong suit of any member of this X-team, especially against a mind like Reed's."

Exactly. The X-Men's wins (of which I believe they would have none) would be luck, F4's would not be. That's what this comes down to. Who is the better team to win this fight and out of the people specified, it's the Fantastic Four. Such is the consensus in this thread.

"As for Jean's TK, when she lifts/moves objects, she enshrouds or envelops them in telekenetic force, then moves them, so she should be able to envelop a force/solid energy construct bubble even though she hasn't been written to do so."

This was the problem in many other threads. Being written to do something and having done it are two vastly different things.

"It's within the bounds of her abilities. If the Xmen could locate the 'invisible' bubble field, they have means of attacking it. Like Nightcrawler teleporting inside of it (when/if it's located) and filling it with smoke."

Again, is Nightcrawler going to survive long enough? If Sue goes invisible unprotected, she IS vulnerable but there's no outer shield to reveal. So it'd be a non factor of Nightcrawler getting inside. What can he do besides teleport and what is teleporting going to do in the grand scheme of Nightcrawler, Jean, Ice-Man and Colossus Vs The Fantastic Four.

There is just too much behind the F4 and way too many ways to win.

-AC

Oh yeah, Jean putting an airless bubble around Sue's bubble wouldn't knock Sue out by any means. Sue keeps her own bubble filled with air, so she could breath while in it. I suppose, EVENTUALLY Sue would run out of air if Jean's airtight, airless bubble was around it, but it would take so long for Sue to run out of air that it wouldn't be a worthwhile strategy. And it would ultimately lead to a battle of bubbles anyway, with Sue trying to crack Jean's airtight bubble with her own. The result of that is completely open to speculation, since no such tug of war has ever taken place.

Either way, the airtight strategy wouldn't work. If I were Jean, I'd just avoid any kind of "pit my TK against your shields" contest altogether, even if I were confident I could best Sue in that department and just telepathically turn her against the rest of the team. Make Sue do the work for the X-men.

Current version, anyway.

"Oh yeah, Jean putting an airless bubble around Sue's bubble wouldn't knock Sue out by any means. Sue keeps her own bubble filled with air, so she could breath while in it. I suppose, EVENTUALLY Sue would run out of air if Jean's airtight, airless bubble was around it, but it would take so long for Sue to run out of air that it wouldn't be a worthwhile strategy. And it would ultimately lead to a battle of bubbles anyway, with Sue trying to crack Jean's airtight bubble with her own. The result of that is completely open to speculation, since no such tug of war has ever taken place."

That's exactly my point. Also though, would it come to Sue having to crack Jean's bubble? I think it is pretty safe to say Jean won't have the presence of mind to concentrate while the fight is happening. In which case Sue would keep breathing and it'd be redundant.

I do think Jean is extremely powerful but it's just not happening realistically. An X-Men victory over the Fantastic Four. ESPECIALLY not these 4.

-AC

One of the reasons that the Nightcrawler scenario wouldn't work is that Sue can change the density or thickness of her fields and Nightcrawler may end up BAMFing into the middle of the field itself. And since he can only BAMF to where he see, he doesn't know where the field starts or finishes I.E. invisible. Just a thought.

BJG

PSSST -AC your right i was as bad as SB was. petty and uncool by me. Do i still have to go to my room?

Yes, yes you do.

Regardless of the fact that SB is chatting nonsense, he has every right to support who he thinks would win.

SAYING that, he threw mud first by calling us idiots. Just saying it's pointless stooping to that level.

-AC

You are correct Sir. Thank you sir may i have another?

BJG

When did I call you idiots, I called you fools, and said you were ridiculus.

Now, I will say this one more time, and one more time only(unless you continue to dispute it without any evidence) Jean and Phoenix are one and the same. The only difference between the two is the difference between Thing and Ben Grimm. Their real name and their codename. They are the same being, as I said many times before. So, using current versions, Phoenix is completely relevant.

Ok, let's say Iceman does get melted or shattered by Torch's nova blast, did that blast take out all moisture on earth? Well then, Iceman can create a new body. See how easy that was. And now YOU are assuming that Johny would be able to get it off before being deactivated by Phoenix's telepathy.

Oh, and Ben, your scenario with Thing and Phoenix: They come together, Thing reaches for Phoenix, and falls to his feet having had his mind erased. There you go, happy? Nice scenario...

You have stated no ways that would actually put Iceman and Phoenix down, so why don't you argue on the offensive for once, as your "facts" have been "perfectly" disputing what I KNOW the X-men could do to the FF. What can the FF actually do to put down Phoenix and Iceman.

Although, I will apologize for the fools comment, that was uncalled for...

"When did I call you idiots, I called you fools, and said you were ridiculus."

You threw the first insult because you I kept smacking your debate around like a stepchild and you didn't like it. Since you apologised I'll drop it.

"Jean and Phoenix are one and the same. The only difference between the two is the difference between Thing and Ben Grimm. Their real name and their codename. They are the same being, as I said many times before. So, using current versions, Phoenix is completely relevant."

Ok look. Let me ask you a question. When Jean was born, she was born Jean Grey, NOT Phoenix or with Phoenix Force. We BOTH know that. Now answer this once and for all:

If the Phoenix Force did NOT come into contact with or possess Jean Grey, would Jean Grey and Phoenix Force still be one and the same?

"Ok, let's say Iceman does get melted or shattered by Torch's nova blast, did that blast take out all moisture on earth? Well then, Iceman can create a new body. See how easy that was. And now YOU are assuming that Johny would be able to get it off before being deactivated by Phoenix's telepathy."

She's not in this fight. She's not, end of story. Jean Grey is. Nobody mentioned Phoenix Force. You did, nobody else. Jean Grey is in this fight. The Jean Grey before she encountered the Phoenix Force. The Jean Grey who is JUST a telepath. NOBODY....I repeat for you, NOBODY, stated that Phoenix was in this thread. YOU did.

"Ok, let's say Iceman does get melted or shattered by Torch's nova blast, did that blast take out all moisture on earth? Well then, Iceman can create a new body. See how easy that was"

What in the hell? Take out all the moisture on Earth? You are a desperate man. He doesn't have to does he? Ice-Man cannot control moisture from the otherside of the world, country or state for that matter. He's not God, He's just Ice-Man.

"You have stated no ways that would actually put Iceman and Phoenix down, so why don't you argue on the offensive for once, as your "facts" have been "perfectly" disputing what I KNOW the X-men could do to the FF.

It's like talking to a pre schooler. I don't mean that as a diss, it actually is. Gonna completely disregard your Phoenix comment coz you're the only one including her. All you are saying is what you WANT the X-Men to do. NOTHING more. You are talking about Ice-Man being able to control all moisture on Earth, what the hell is that all about? You are completely clutching at straws. I have stated so many times why they would win. I'm not gonna keep typing it if all you're gonna do is act ignorant and say "Yeah but Phoenix". Why should I? I don't need to debate on the OFFENSIVE coz this isn't an offensive debate. Everyone's agreed with me besides you because you can't let go of Phoenix.

"What can the FF actually do to put down Phoenix and Iceman."

Watch this: "Ok, let's say Iceman does get melted or shattered by Torch's nova blast, did that blast take out all moisture on earth? Well then, Iceman can create a new body. See how easy that was."

You said that. You're pretty much admitting what the FF could do to Ice-Man. Then to cover your tracks you make the utterly ridiculous claim that Torch'd have to burn all the moisture on Earth. Pointless, ridiculous and falling fast, on your part.

Everyone has agreed that even if X-Men have more of a chance now, they still won't win. No one mentioned Phoenix but you. So stop bringing her into a fight where she isn't relevant.

I hope you realise that by continually posting you're not actually getting anything but further away from giving the X-Men a win.

-AC

Just wondering when the fight became a bubble battle.

Hmm...

The problem there is if Sue/Johnny are using the bubble to protect more than themselves (like the whole team together), Nightcrawler could still teleport inside based on the fact that:

1) The field would have to be large enough to enclose someone as big as the Thing, and wide enough to encase 4 human beings, one of which is VERY large.

2) It's hollow and a symmetrical shape. It's not like the field will mold to each member of the FF's bodies like spandex if they were all enclosed.

Nightcrawler is well trained at gauging distance, and all it would take is a lil math to know where to teleport inside of the sphere/cylinder/cube/prism based on the dimensions (and all X students are pretty good at advanced trig, Professor X taught these classes telepathically from what I've read. Physics as well). He's done it before. He's teleported onto/into moving vehicles calculating distance, altitude, and rate of speed. If Sue or Johnny (whichever is using the invisible powers) is only defending themselves then yeah, Nightcrawler isn't going to be able to pull it off. If they are defending the team and Iceman can surround the 'invisible' field in ice/moisture so that Kurt can see how big it is, on top of knowing how big the people inside are, he can surmise the inner area (math is great), and he could pull it off.

[lol, I can't believe I'm trying to validate Nightcrawler even being in this fight.]

That kind of attack would take a little time to pull off though. All Nightcrawler could really be any use of doing would be to teleport either Grimm or Reed or both away so that the Xmen could get a 4on3 or 4on2 advantage against the others.

Still, I'm seeing the FF winning against these 4 particular Xmen 96-98.9% of the time. If they had Storm instead of Nightcrawler it would at least be more interesting with her leadership, firepower, and ability to create environments that would negate both the 'invisibilty' and flames.

But anyway, FF win this battle.

ok, a while back ac stated that jean greys bubble was telepathic, which doesn't make any sense at all, considering telepathy has no effect on any thing physical. it only effects thoughts and other functions of the brain.

classic v classic, of course the F4 win.

but if we are bringing in herald johnny, then we bring in the phoenix force. i still believe that phoenix jean grey would beat the F4 on her own. throw in uber-powerful new iceman, and it isn't even close.

in any case, classic v classic, this isn't even a debate. but go current, and the x-men have more than just a chance. they will win 99% of the time.