FF4 VS these 4 xmen i chose

"ok, if the ff4 have the ultimate nulifier they can beat anyone, but they dont carrie it around with them"

They don't need that to beat the X-Men.

"She's a baby step behind Prof. X. Sue Storm cannot block any psychic attacks from her. Maybe she can block some psi-blasts. But Jean can do more than that. She can make her see things that aren't there. Cast illusions over Sue's teammates to make her think that they are her enemies. Shut down her senses. Make her vomit or defacte. The list goes on."

How do you know that "Sue Storm cannot block psychic attacks from her"? If Sue can, then her teammates inside the bubble won't be affected either.

"Iceman can manipulate the water in Sue's body. Forcefield or not. He has mental control of water molecules. Nothing is actually hitting the field."

How is the mental control of these water molocules gonna penetrate her forcefield? Unless you can prove that he will succeed "forcefield or not", you shouldn't be saying it.

"The FF uses the ultimate nulliefer or some wacky genius plan to defeat Galactus. Not brute force."

They have enough brute force to overcome certain members of the X-Men, most infact. Colossus is the only brute force member included and I believe Thing can take him, he'd also most certainly go down to Torch. If they can plot a GENIUS PLAN to defeat Galactus, they can out plan and outsmart the X-Men. The X-Men are outclassed here.

"The FF4 doesn't defeat Galactus. They scare him away. That's it."

A retreat is a defeat. They won, the accomplished their mission which was to stop him.

"The forcefield cannot block the Iceman's influence over H20 past her shields. I highly doubt it could."

Exactly, you highly doubt it could. You aren't proving anything. So stop with all the "Sue cannot..." blah blah blah unless you can prove it.

-AC

crazyspinz... next time u create a thread... please... and i mean please... confirm which incarnations you use, whether jean has phoenix force, whether torch is current... all that crap... 😮

Alpha Centari :

Your entire arguement rests on Sue Richards and the fact that the FF4 "defeated" Galactus. That's it.

"They don't need to beat the X-Men"

What are the FF4 going to do scare them away with a sample of Thing's toenails?

"How is the mental control of these water molocules gonna penetrate her forcefield? Unless you can prove that he will succeed "forcefield or not", you shouldn't be saying it."

Sue's forcefields guard against outside influences. That's it. Iceman ice spike attacks won't go through but mentally manipulating the blood in her brain to freeze certainly will. Her forcefields would not protect her.

"A retreat is a defeat. They won, the accomplished their mission which was to stop him."

The X-Men ain't gonna run away. The statement is utter bull.

This isn't every X-Man versus Sue Richards. This X-Men vs. Fantastic Four. Mr. Fantastic is taken out either by Iceman or Phoenix. The Thing would tussle with Colossus for awhile until Iceman freezes his heart. The Human Torch is completely vulnerable to a psychic attack or telekinetic manipulation of oxygen molecules.

What it really comes down to is Sue Richards. She can carry the team far but certainly not enough. Psychic attacks may not breach her shield but sensory/visual manipulation or H20 manipulation certainly will.

The FF4 are out of their league in this one. Face the truth.

I like the X Men in this fight. I'm petty sure there is a Fantastic 4 simulation in the Danger Room. All that needs to happen is Nightcrawler kamikaze's Sue at the outset and teleports them both into a wall (sacrifices must be made), then The Fantastic 4 are fantasically f*cked. If this is Phoenix Jean, she brain locks the remaining members and match is over. Piotr and Bobby just stand there and wonder what just happened and why there is a blue tail and a blood puddle next to the Baxter Building.

"All that needs to happen is Nightcrawler kamikaze's Sue at the outset and teleports them both into a wall (sacrifices must be made), then The Fantastic 4 are fantasically f*cked. If this is Phoenix Jean, she brain locks the remaining members and match is over. Piotr and Bobby just stand there and wonder what just happened and why there is a blue tail and a blood puddle next to the Baxter Building."

This is very very creative but all it is really, is you saying what you think would happen. You and Draco are confusing what you think, with what is likely.

"Your entire arguement rests on Sue Richards and the fact that the FF4 "defeated" Galactus. That's it."

Yours rests on saying that they cannot do things without proving it.

"What are the FF4 going to do scare them away with a sample of Thing's toenails?"

That's funny. Really, it is. You obviously have limited knowledge on the F4.

"Sue's forcefields guard against outside influences. That's it. Iceman ice spike attacks won't go through but mentally manipulating the blood in her brain to freeze certainly will. Her forcefields would not protect her."

Certainly will? Do you have proof or do you BELIEVE he most certainly will be able to freeze her? Coz it it's the latter, again you are proving nothing.

"The X-Men ain't gonna run away. The statement is utter bull."

I never said they would. If they stuck around they're either gonna be retreating with a great deal less of their members, or not retreating at all and losing all their members. It's that simple.

"This X-Men vs. Fantastic Four. Mr. Fantastic is taken out either by Iceman or Phoenix. The Thing would tussle with Colossus for awhile until Iceman freezes his heart. The Human Torch is completely vulnerable to a psychic attack or telekinetic manipulation of oxygen molecules."

Why are you pairing up characters with other characters just so you can try to gain an edge? They're not all gonna line up and pair together. This isn't dodgeball, you don't get to pick who you fight. You're also still assuming the X-Men can do these things to the F4 with no back-up or proof.

"Psychic attacks may not breach her shield but sensory/visual manipulation or H20 manipulation certainly will."

Visual? Nope. H20 certainly will? You keep saying that, never giving any reason why. You believing it will doesn't mean it will happen, chances are that if Jean cannot penetrate her shields/bubbles, Ice-Man's mind won't be able to. It's common sense.

"The FF4 are out of their league in this one. Face the truth."

Heed your own advice.

-AC

Originally posted by illadelph12
I like the X Men in this fight. I'm petty sure there is a Fantastic 4 simulation in the Danger Room. All that needs to happen is Nightcrawler kamikaze's Sue at the outset and teleports them both into a wall (sacrifices must be made), then The Fantastic 4 are fantasically f*cked. If this is Phoenix Jean, she brain locks the remaining members and match is over. Piotr and Bobby just stand there and wonder what just happened and why there is a blue tail and a blood puddle next to the Baxter Building.

hysterical

dude... that is hilarious... but oddly plausible...

So what you are basically arguing that Sue's shield's can or cannot buffer Iceman's H20 manipulation or Jean's telepathy because I haven't offered proof or evidence. Where's your evidence? All I see is supposition and opinion. Countering an agrument by crying "lack of proof' isn't a good way to debate. In fact it's a p*** poor way to debate. Offer proof that Sue Richards fields CAN buffer the said above then I will gladly concede. Until then, the X-Men win hands down.

guys guys, there is no way to prove definitively whether sue could block jean and bobby or not... they've never been pitted against each other while they've possessed these capabilities... unless we know that then we'll never end this...

"Where's your evidence? All I see is supposition and opinion. Countering an agrument by crying "lack of proof' isn't a good way to debate. In fact it's a p*** poor way to debate. Offer proof that Sue Richards fields CAN buffer the said above then I will gladly concede. Until then, the X-Men win hands down."

You have repeatedly said she cannot do things. Repeatedly said that they F4 cannot do things. Where is YOUR evidence that they can't? Where is YOUR evidence that Ice-Man and Jean can break through or penetrate Sue's barrier? Hmm? You aren't giving any more evidence than I am. Sue and anyone else within her forcefield are protected from concussive force. Concussion can be cause psionically or physically. Moreover, they are mental forcefields. Therefore they are resistable to telepathy.

-AC

Originally posted by Draco69
Sue's forcefields guard against outside influences. That's it. Iceman ice spike attacks won't go through but mentally manipulating the blood in her brain to freeze certainly will. Her forcefields would not protect her.

Is Iceman's ability to freeze water not an outside influence on the water itself? The reason Sue is likely to block his powers is because they're very similiar to telepathy/telekinesis which she can block.

Out of curiosity, what kind of Herald is Human Torch? Silver Surfer kind of herald or just boosted powers?

"Out of curiosity, what kind of Herald is Human Torch? Silver Surfer kind of herald or just boosted powers?"

Well Surfer had no powers before becoming a herald. Torch is a herald in the main sense of the word. I read a rumour that he's much stronger, boosted powers, or is soon to be made such in an upcoming F4 comic. #522 I think. The front cover sees him surrounded by a Sue Storm like forcefield.

-AC

FAO Swanky:

This should help:

Synopsis: "The re-introduction of a fan-favorite Marvel Universe hero into the battle may have caused more problems than it solved, because not even he can save the Fantastic Three from the cosmic might of Galactus's new herald–Johnny Storm, the Invisible Man!"

-AC

"You have repeatedly said she cannot do things. Repeatedly said that they F4 cannot do things. Where is YOUR evidence that they can't? Where is YOUR evidence that Ice-Man and Jean can break through or penetrate Sue's barrier? Hmm? You aren't giving any more evidence than I am. Sue and anyone else within her forcefield are protected from concussive force. Concussion can be cause psionically or physically. Moreover, they are mental forcefields. Therefore they are resistable to telepathy."

The F***? Mental forcefields are resistable to telepathy? Concussions can be caused by psionic force or physical force, so obviously telepathy can't get through. Bull****. Please! You didn't prove anything! Sue Storm's forcefield's aren't mental forcefields. They are energy forcefields:

"Sue Richards' psionic ability to manipulate ambient cosmic energy enables her to bend light around her body without distortion, thus rendering herself invisible. The cells of her body produce an unknown form of energy she can mentally project around other people and objects -- rending them invisible, as well. Richards' brain cells produce psionic force she can shape into relatively simple forms - such as rectangle planes, globes, cylinders, cones and domes. Also, she can mentally project protective fields that are highly resistant to concussive forces. And by projecting columns of psionic force beneath her, she can travel through the air."

Her forcefields are made of ambient cosmic energy not mental energies. The "mental forcefields are resistant to telepathy" is nullified.

The X-MEN win.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue and anyone else within her forcefield are protected from concussive force. Concussion can be cause psionically or physically. Moreover, they are mental forcefields. Therefore they are resistable to telepathy.

-AC

I thought her force fields were merely invisible barriers. I kinda doubt that they are impenetrable by anything. You were also saying earlier that the fantastic 4 would win simply because sue could protect them from anything. But even if sue protects them, they are on the defensive, so you fail to state how they would further stategize to defeat the x-men.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Well, it was a crossover. I imagine it was all about that.

Also Onslaught psychic attacks took Sue Richards out in second during the "Heroes Reborn" storyline. She had a shield up and she fell anyway.

Originally posted by Draco69
Also Onslaught psychic attacks took Sue Richards out in second during the "Heroes Reborn" storyline. She had a shield up and she fell anyway.

Psylocke also read the mind of Juggernaut through his helmets in that arc. Plus it's freakin Onslaught.

"Plus it's freakin Onslaught."

Exactly. No one on the X-Men team has Onslaught's telepathic or psionic ability.

"Concussions can be caused by psionic force or physical force, so obviously telepathy can't get through. Bull****. Please! You didn't prove anything! Sue Storm's forcefield's aren't mental forcefields. They are energy forcefields."

She PSIONICALLY absorbs it and MENTALLY manifests it. There are two main telepathic qualities in the creation of those shields. I said that CONCUSSIVE force is called such because it has CONCUSSIVE effects (knockout, concussion). Concussion and knockout can be caused mentally/psionically or physically. She is untouchable by those mediums when in protection of her forcefields. Calm down with the profanity junior. If you can't take the heat, stay out of my kitchen.

"The "mental forcefields are resistant to telepathy" is nullified."

Read above junior.

"You were also saying earlier that the fantastic 4 would win simply because sue could protect them from anything. But even if sue protects them, they are on the defensive, so you fail to state how they would further stategize to defeat the x-men."

They don't need to be all inside Sue's barrier really. She can place forcefields around multiple objects or people. Even render them invisible at the same time. So not only would the X-Men have to FIND the F4, but they wouldn't be able to anything when they did.

However, let's suppose that you are correct just for fun. How would they defeat the X-Men from within the shield had they all been under the same one and couldn't attack back? Well on the flip, if they can't attack out and X-Men can't get in, no one is gonna defeat anyone. F4 will have defeated the X-Men's only method of attack. Rendered them useless. So would be a stalemate.

F4 outclass the X-Men.

-AC

Psylocke didn't read his mind. She plunged her psychic dagger into his head. Apparently her psydagger was able to penetrate Jugg's helmet. Onslaught is Xavier on rampage. He still has Xavier's telepathy.

"Onslaught is Xavier on rampage. He still has Xavier's telepathy."

But Onslaught isn't part of this fight. Unless he joined the X-Men and I'm THAT out of touch.

-AC