Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"That means that despite the fact that it's purely speculation on both our parts, the fact that she's demonstrated such an ability gives her greater than 50% odds of doing it to Doom."...50% of it not. Are those good odds to go against Doom with?
I said *greater than* 50%.
50% would be simply me saying, "She can affect him inside the shield", and you saying, "She can't".
GREATER than 50% is me saying, "She can affect him inside the shield, because she done that with other shields", and you saying, "She can't".
100% is me saying, "She can't affect him inside the shield, because she affected him inside the shields before" and you saying, "She can't"
Again, odds are in my favor. They're not even, because I provided circumstantial evidence that shows a 100% success rate in her affecting the inside of forcefields.
"The fact that Doom has four hours of oxygen in there makes that easier, not harder. It shows that it can contain an environment, which makes it Storm for Storm to affect."It's not environment in terms of weather, it's like in a space shuttle airlock. She controls the weather, not surroundings.
Ah, I see where you're confused. The reason she can affect things inside forcefields is because EVERYTHING has weather. Everything has temperature, humidity, etc. Her power to control the weather isn't limited to the open air. She can create the weather anywhere. She once made a mini storm inside of a glass jar. The only way she'd be unable to affect the weather inside Doom's field is if it were a vacuum. Because he has an air supply in there, it's not. Therefore it has weather. Therefore it's easier for her to affect it.
"However, you've provided far less evidence of his ability to do so. You haven't named a single instance where he's actually created a magic shield."You are assuming that because he hasn't, he can't. That's the problem. Surfer had the power to change the fate of the Earth. We all could use it in debate, but it kept getting over looked because whilst he had the power, people say he hadn't used it. He then used it. So don't equate having a power and not having used it YET, to not having it.
This coming from the guy who was jumping up and down demanding references about whether Magneto has absorbed this or that specific type of energy in all those other threads? Pfft.
Doom has had 40 years of continuity to use it. He hasn't. A magic forcefield is a useful thing. Sheer logic suggests that if there's something THAT useful that he'd know how to create that he'd create it at least once, right? We're not talking about something incidental - we're talking about the ability to render yourself completely impervious. And in 40 years he's never done it? C'mon now.
Just because you know some magic doesn't mean you know ALL magic. There are lots of things lots of magicians can't do. That's why all magicians aren't equally powerful. That's like saying, "Doom knows magic. Therefore he can cast a spell that can automatically enslave the world". You could use that logic in concert with magic to say ANYTHING. No, you don't get away with that. You've gotta prove that has can create the shield.
Think about it - he sold his soul to demons to gain enough magic power to defeat the Fantastic Four. If all he needed to do was put up some impenetrable magic shield, it would have been an open and shut case.
I mean - damn. The circumstantial evidence against him having that ability is overwhelming.
All you are saying is "Yeah but Storm has proven to manipulate others shield". Yeah, Doom has proven to wield magic.
Magic is broad. Just because he can't wield it doesn't mean its limtless or that he knows every spell. You're essentially saying that with magic, he's omnipotent because there's nothing he couldn't do, regardless of never having done it. I don't buy that.
He hasn't created a magical shield, she hasn't broke through his shield.
I see what you're trying to do, but it's not a valid comparison. There's a world of difference between demonstrating the ability to do something AT ALL to doing something under a very specific circumstance.
A valid comparison would be:
He hasn't created a magical shield; she hasn't broken though any shields
or
He has created a magical shield; she has broken through shields
because the burden of proof is equal in both cases. Above, you're comparing unequal burdens by adding a specific clause to one that doesn't exist in the other. Not valid.
"We're talking about an IMPENETRABLE magic forcefield! Sounds pretty useful, doesn't it? And to think that he's never used it? Sounds like he CAN'T."Why? I buy a computer, set it up and never ever turn it on. I've not demonstrated it works. Are you gonna assume it can't?
If the computer grants you omnipotence when you turn it on, and you've always wanted to be omnipotent, then either it means that you tried and it didn't turn on, or you're an idiot and don't know how to turn it on. And I think we all agree that Doom isn't an idiot...
"Doom's magic abilities are suspect - his reputation comes entirely from being considered second in line to the Sorcerer Supreme title, which he wouldn't have earned had he played by the rules."The tournament he cheated in came after Strange taught him.
Assuming that's true (that doesn't sound right) - then that's even worse. Even after being taught by Strange, he had to cheat just to get to where he did? Some sorcerer...
"And if we're going by what people SHOULD be able to do - Storm, because she can cause weather conditions within any enclosed space, even if she can't see it, should be able to cause weather conditions inside people. That means lightning directly inside Doom's heart. Has she ever done it? No, but that doesn't mean she CAN'T do it, right?"See what you tried, didn't pull it off really.
Doom, undoubtedly, has magic ties. Correct? Yes. Storm manipulates environment, THE WEATHER. Not the surroundings. Correct? Yes.
Incorrect. The surroundings ARE the environment. They're the same.
Therefore, there's nothing in a human body to work with.
Sure there is. It's an extension of the environment. You open your mouth to breath or speak and you take in that environment. That means she can manipulate it even when it's inside of you, just like she did by creating a storm inside the glass jar. Likewise when she was locked in a box as a teen and sustained herself by making it rain inside the box and drinking the water.
So, if you wanna go by what they SHOULD be able to do, we're gonna have a party....
Why does she say "Power of lightning come to my aid", "I summon the winds of uranus" and "Oh chilly winds, make Omega Red real cold and stuff", if she can actually create it? You don't see Ice-Man standing there going "Throw some of that North Pole chill my way Santa." He can CREATE it.
Indeed, Storm doesn't create weather. She manipulates it. BUT, like Graviton and his control over gravitons, weather is EVERYWHERE. We're surrounded by it. It's in us, it's part of us. She's more powerful in open conditions because there's more weather to call upon, but in tight environments, she can still use her powers. Enough to fill someone's lungs with water, or lightning jolt someone's heart.
But I didn't go there because she's shown no evidence of doing that.
But since you're ok with allowing people to do things they've never done....