Storm vs. Dr. Doom

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"No. It doesn't just "get" the metal of his suit. Electricity doesn't just "get" metal and then go away. It conducts. It'll conduct all through his armor, and in doing so, will extend to the circuitry that's connected to it, shorting it all out."

Why does it short it out? Coz it worked on the gauntlet?

Well, that and the fact that that's what happens with electricity hits machinery. It's just physics.

Despite that being ONE time only, on a stand alone piece of his armour? Bit of a large assumption.

How many times do you want her to fight Doom to prove the point? They had one encounter where she chose to take action, and she did that to him one time. It's not that wild an assumption, given that there's been no opposing evidence presented of him handing electricity without incident.

Certainly, it's speculative since she's never actually fired electricity directly at Doom with the intent of knocking him out or anything. But , as before, circumstantial evidence (the only evidence that we can use on a fight that's never happened) points more in my favor than in yours on this point.

"Storm electrocuted Unus from the inside out. That's when. If she can control weather from an internal envrionment, as she often does, why wouldn't that include tornados or lightning? It's all the weather - it's all within the scope of her abilities. It's not even a creative stretch."

You're obviously not understanding the nature of Doom's forcefield.

I guess not. Explain it.

All this is very very pretty but Doom has more weaponry in his suit than the US Army

The man ain't War Machine, or even Iron Man. He doesn't have THAT many weapons. I've always seen Doom's armor as being more protective than offensive in nature, while Iron Man's armor has always seemed more offensively driven.

and he's a Master Sorcerer. Storm controls weather. What's she gonna do when Doom casts a spell on her? Blow it away? Freeze it? Die? Pick one.

Bringing magic in here, eh? I have basically 0 experience with his magic background, so you'll have to educate me. When does he use magic in battle? The only storyline I remember where he actively used magic was in his last FF storyarc. And the one where he vied for the SS title in a tournament. Nothing before that. And Doom said during that final storyline that he largely turned his back on magic and his heritage, which means that he's rarely if ever used it. His inclination or ability to cast a spell to beat storm is dubious.

There's some giant misconception that Doom will stand there going peeow peeow with beams.

He'd walk too.

He could give Dr. Strange a run for his money.

He made a deal with minor demons of Hell to gain true magic power and even then had to ambush Strange to beat him. I find it VERY hard to believe that a regular Doom could match Strange in a magic battle for even a little while.

Storm cannot penetrate magic, if he shields himself with that too (which he has done), she's even more incapacitated offensively than before.

When has Doom casted a spell that magically shielded himself from attacks?

Between Doom's infinite arsenal, impeccable defense and insane magical powers, there's more ways for him to kill Storm before she creates anything of offense.

I find Doom's arsenal sub-par compared to IM and War Machine. His defense is moot, and his magic powers unimpressive. But there's convincing room on the latter point, if you'd like to tell me more.

Originally posted by demigawd
Massive detours? Like what? You're trying to make it seem like you've struck some sort of gold here.

No, I'm not. Simply the point that I disputed a point, you have since agreed, and even now are on the road to Mexico rather than realising it's gone beyond the original point.

Originally posted by demigawd
I said the fact that Storm can affect the weather within an enclosed space, like a forcefield, makes Doom's forcefield irrevelant". You jumped on it like a dog in heat, saying, "NAH UH! NAH UH! There are things Storm can't do to him when he has his field up, so it's not irrevelant! So there!!!".

You SURE those were my words? Or was it for comedy effect? Exaggeration and all that. Also, dogs in heat get jumped ON. While we're being technical.

Originally posted by demigawd

I then said, "Fine. The fact that Storm can affect the weather within an enclosed space, like a forcefield, makes Doom's forcefield ALMOST irrevelant". That's not a detour - you want to make a big deal out of wordplay, that's on you.

It wasn't wordplay, you made it into wordplay, rather than admitting the error. So it's on you. No returns.

Originally posted by demigawd

Nonsense. The only thing Doom's forcefield earns him is the inability of Storm to affect him from the outside in. But when Storm can affect the environment inside of Doom's forcefield, what in the holy hell does she care about throwing hail at him? That's like me with a gatling gun trying to rob that boxer from your "analogy" before. Sure, he could say, "I'm a boxer, I've taken punches from the best in the world. You're never gotta punch me out and take my money". Well, TECHNICALLY that's true. And technically, his fighting training will "limit" my options on how to rob him because I couldn't just beat it out of him. But I have a damn gatling gun. I don't give a rats ass about punching him - I'll just shoot him and take his money. lol.

You mean even after that long paragraph, the fact that your original comment was wrong, as [half] conceded by you, still stands? You know, the 'wordplay' (ie wrong) one.

Originally posted by demigawd
So will Doom's forcefield "limit" Storm's effectiveness? ok, sure, if you wanna play with semantics.

Again, the original point wasn't semantic. It was 'weaselled' into one. Do you do that? Weaselling? Well? Do you?

Originally posted by demigawd

I never weasel out of anything

*wink*

Originally posted by demigawd

and certainly not against you.

Technically you can't qualify 'never', but I see you needed to assert yourself. I'll let you have that one. Ow.

Originally posted by demigawd
What was this second clause that you claim I added that wasn't previously part of the debate?

NO, it won't limit Storm's effectiveness

--------->in any way that will affect the outcome of the battle<-------

Originally posted by demigawd

I did no such thing.

Well, you did. I just wrote it above. Are you reading this or what?

Originally posted by demigawd

Tidal wave in--? I never said that.

It's called creative licence. Like 'NAH UH! NAH UH! There are things Storm can't do to him when he has his field up, so it's not irrevelant! So there!!!'

Originally posted by demigawd

If Storm has 50 attacks

She doesn't though. Do go on.

Originally posted by demigawd

If Storm has 50 attacks

Yeah, she doesn't though. Go on without that bit.

Originally posted by demigawd

...and three of them depend on external events that can't be reproduced within a confined space, then who cares about those three attacks?

Y-you?

Originally posted by demigawd
And who cares about the forcefield that blocks them? Of COURSE I'm discounting Doom's forcefield, because there are more things she can do despite the forcefield than she can't do BECAUSE of it.

I care. We all do. Can I just interject at this point to reiterate the thread, STORM VERSUS DR DOOM. She's going down. She can't do anything. To anyone.

Originally posted by demigawd
Doom's forcefield, in this fight, is very easily discounted.

Are you sure?

Originally posted by demigawd
...

Don't be shy.

Originally posted by demigawd
Even if it's *only* "almost" completely ineffective.

You mean, after that long missive, you agree that your original point was wrong? Like I said? The subject of this whole debate? I agree.

Originally posted by demigawd

heh

you! (Who said that?) Baby how you been?

Just wondering,

'Bringing magic in here, eh? I have basically 0 experience with his magic background, so you'll have to educate me. When does he use magic in battle? '

How many times does Storm do the old hurricane inside the clothing routine?

I'm not going to go point by point with you on an incredibly minute detail that has, in the end, won you absolutely nothing. Here's the exact quote that sparked this whole exchange between us:

So now that we've established that Storm can penetrate forcefields, the fact that Doom will or will not have his forcefield up becomes irrelevant. She could affect him anyway.

That was my original quote. And despite your efforts to turn it into something bigger and more significant than it is, I stand by that quote. It becomes irrevelant because, as I said in the next sentence, she could affect him anyway. THAT is why it becomes irrelevant. I never said anything about how many options that takes away, or how much more or less effective that makes her. In the end of the day, if she wanted to hit him with lightning, she could. If she wanted to change the weather on him to make him freeze, she could. If she wanted to change the air pressure on him and knock him out, she could. And there's not a blessed thing his forcefield can do about that.

You can call that irrelevant, "nearly irrelevant", "not entirely ineffective" or whatever you want to "get" me on; I don't care. But that's my point, and I've never once wavered from it.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom

How many times does Storm do the old hurricane inside the clothing routine?

I've named four times during the course of this thread that she's affected the environment from within a forcefield. Two were against enemies. It's not like the woman runs around fighting people with forcefields everyday. All things considered, that's a pretty good track record to establish how she'd likely react to one.

Originally posted by demigawd
I'm not going to go point by point with you on an incredibly minute detail that has, in the end, won you absolutely nothing. Here's the exact quote that sparked this whole exchange between us:

That was my original quote. And despite your efforts to turn it into something bigger and more significant than it is, I stand by that quote.

Not trying to turn it into anything. Simply pointed out it was wrong.

Originally posted by demigawd

You can call that irrelevant, "nearly irrelevant", "not entirely ineffective" or whatever you want to "get" me on; I don't care. But that's my point, and I've never once wavered from it.

That's the spirit, champ.

Not to add to the overkill, but:

"Well, that and the fact that that's what happens with electricity hits machinery. It's just physics."

Yeah and your love for physics not withstanding, they don't often have a place in the Marvel Universe. If they did Storm wouldn't exist.

"How many times do you want her to fight Doom to prove the point? They had one encounter where she chose to take action, and she did that to him one time. It's not that wild an assumption, given that there's been no opposing evidence presented of him handing electricity without incident."

She disable one of his gloves. I missed the point where she beat him.

"But , as before, circumstantial evidence (the only evidence that we can use on a fight that's never happened) points more in my favor than in yours on this point. "

Yeah but yours are down to physics.

As for his magic, not using it often doesn't mean he can't use it to full effect. He's acknowledged by Dr. Strange, more to the point I haven't seen pop things up insides one of Doom's forcefield (coz she hasn't), yet you seem to think she's more than able.

"When has Doom casted a spell that magically shielded himself from attacks?"

Like Vic said, how many times has Storm done the "Electricity inside Dr. Doom shield" thing? I think you will find, never. You say she's done it four times, two against enemies. So two then?

"I find Doom's arsenal sub-par compared to IM and War Machine. His defense is moot, and his magic powers unimpressive. But there's convincing room on the latter point, if you'd like to tell me more."

Hahahahaha.

I find his arsenal impressive when not comparing it to someone who makes suits of artillary for a living.

Is like comparing me to the world's strongest man. I'm sure my power and strength are both sub par to them.

One question, do you think Electro could beat Dr. Doom?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Not to add to the overkill, but:

"Well, that and the fact that that's what happens with electricity hits machinery. It's just physics."

Yeah and your love for physics not withstanding, they don't often have a place in the Marvel Universe. If they did Storm wouldn't exist.

I understand that the laws of physics are often stretched in the Marvel Universe, and sometimes things that are only theory in the real world are treated as fact in the MU. But, we're not debating whether or not white holes exist here...we're talking about metal conducting electricity. That's as fundamental as MU earth having gravity to keep people on the ground. OF COURSE metal conducting electricity has a place in the Marvel Universe. And if you conduct electricity through a electronic object, it's going to short it out. Of the many debatable aspects of Marvel Universe physics, that isn't one of them.

"How many times do you want her to fight Doom to prove the point? They had one encounter where she chose to take action, and she did that to him one time. It's not that wild an assumption, given that there's been no opposing evidence presented of him handing electricity without incident."

She disable one of his gloves. I missed the point where she beat him.

She didn't. It wasn't really a fight. But it proved that his shields aren't always up, and it provided circumstantial evidence that his equipment isn't properly guarded against directed electrical attack.

"But , as before, circumstantial evidence (the only evidence that we can use on a fight that's never happened) points more in my favor than in yours on this point. "

Yeah but yours are down to physics.

Fundamental physics that shouldn't even be brought into question. And that was only one point. The other bits of circumstantial evidence are have nothing to do with physics. I've provided ample circumstantial evidence and have spent the entire thread defending it. Where is yours?

As for his magic, not using it often doesn't mean he can't use it to full effect. He's acknowledged by Dr. Strange, more to the point I haven't seen pop things up insides one of Doom's forcefield (coz she hasn't), yet you seem to think she's more than able.

Circumstantial evidence shows that if she can do it inside Magneto's forcefield, and she can do it inside Jean's forcefield, and she can do it inside Unus' forcefield (and they all have very different forcefields), then there's no reason why she would be unable to do it to Doom's forcefield.

In return, I expect examples, not of Doom using magic in a fight against Storm, but circumstantial evidence to show Doom's use of magic in combat situations against superheroes to show that he'd have the ability AND the inclination to add that to his arsenal. If you can do that, then even though it's considered circumstantial because he used it against others, I will accept it as a valid part of his offense/defense.

"When has Doom casted a spell that magically shielded himself from attacks?"

Like Vic said, how many times has Storm done the "Electricity inside Dr. Doom shield" thing?

Of course not - she's never tried. You're saying the only acceptable evidence that something will happen is if something *has* happened in that exact instance? If that's the case, then there's no real point to debating 95% of the battles on this board.

I think you will find, never. You say she's done it four times, two against enemies. So two then?

Three. I recall she did it against Magneto, changing the air pressure from within his shield, causing him to unnaturally tire. I'm pretty sure I could come up with a couple more if I thought really hard but...c'mon. Five examples, three against enemies. What's the burden of proof here, especially since I'm the only one providing examples of anything? You owe me at least some magic examples, if nothing else. Not just for the debate, but because I genuinely want to know.

"I find Doom's arsenal sub-par compared to IM and War Machine. His defense is moot, and his magic powers unimpressive. But there's convincing room on the latter point, if you'd like to tell me more."

Hahahahaha.

I find his arsenal impressive when not comparing it to someone who makes suits of artillary for a living.

I agree. But that doesn't take away from the fact that IM has a better arsenal of weapons.

One question, do you think Electro could beat Dr. Doom?

I figured you'd ask. Electro could beat Doom only if he could control electricity outside line of site, and electricity from other sources. I hear that he got some kind of crazy upgrade, but I don't know the details. But the old "shoot electricity from his fingers" electrcity couldn't beat Doom because Doom's field would block the electricity, and Electro wouldn't be able to create electricity from within the field or the armor the way Storm could.

"I understand that the laws of physics are often stretched in the Marvel Universe, and sometimes things that are only theory in the real world are treated as fact in the MU. But, we're not debating whether or not white holes exist here...we're talking about metal conducting electricity. That's as fundamental as MU earth having gravity to keep people on the ground. OF COURSE metal conducting electricity has a place in the Marvel Universe. And if you conduct electricity through a electronic object, it's going to short it out. Of the many debatable aspects of Marvel Universe physics, that isn't one of them."

I'm fully aware of all this. Your whole Pro-Storm, Anti-Doom argument is based entirely on the fact that she could get electricity into his suit. From outside of his forcefield, Dr. Doom's forcefield. The one that can take a blast from Galactus.

"But it proved that his shields aren't always up, and it provided circumstantial evidence that his equipment isn't properly guarded against directed electrical attack."

Let me add a bit to that. '...when his shield is down'. There.

"I've provided ample circumstantial evidence and have spent the entire thread defending it. Where is yours?"

See above. You've proved nothing essentially. She disabled his GLOVE when his shield was DOWN. Nothing more AT ALL.

"Circumstantial evidence shows that if she can do it inside Magneto's forcefield, and she can do it inside Jean's forcefield, and she can do it inside Unus' forcefield (and they all have very different forcefields), then there's no reason why she would be unable to do it to Doom's forcefield."

Why does her altering the conditions inside Jean's forcefield mean that she could attack Doom from outside his?

"In return, I expect examples, not of Doom using magic in a fight against Storm, but circumstantial evidence to show Doom's use of magic in combat situations against superheroes to show that he'd have the ability AND the inclination to add that to his arsenal. If you can do that, then even though it's considered circumstantial because he used it against others, I will accept it as a valid part of his offense/defense."

I had forgotten the title of the comic but Arac reminded me.

Check "Dr. Doom & Dr. Strange: Triumph and Torment". Tell me how magically inept he is after.

"Of course not - she's never tried. You're saying the only acceptable evidence that something will happen is if something *has* happened in that exact instance? If that's the case, then there's no real point to debating 95% of the battles on this board."

You said above 'they all have different shields'. Well is it not possible that Doom might protect himself with a shield that she CAN'T manipulate? Either his normal one or a magical one?

"Three. I recall she did it against Magneto, changing the air pressure from within his shield, causing him to unnaturally tire."

What's changing the air pressure gonna do to Doom?

"I'm pretty sure I could come up with a couple more if I thought really hard but...c'mon. Five examples, three against enemies. What's the burden of proof here, especially since I'm the only one providing examples of anything?"

Are ya? Are ya really?

"You owe me at least some magic examples, if nothing else. Not just for the debate, but because I genuinely want to know."

Like the whole comic I just gave you?

"I agree. But that doesn't take away from the fact that IM has a better arsenal of weapons."

Sure doesn't buddy.

"I figured you'd ask. Electro could beat Doom only if he could control electricity outside line of site, and electricity from other sources."

Wait, wait a minute. So lets suppose Storm and Electro CAN control the electricity inside Doom's forcefield (when he's not protected by magic), that doesn't mean that Storm and some jobber are gonna gain the victory does it? Your problem is that you give great odds to people based on one tiny weakness of the opponent they fight. Which is rather silly. Everybody knows Electro has no chance against Doom, neither does Storm.

"I hear that he got some kind of crazy upgrade"

Don't they all nowadays.....

EDIT: Also, seeing as the prep time rules no longer seem to apply when they aren't against Dr. Doom, I'm gonna give Doom preptime and an easy win. Night night.

-AC

Hey people im new to these forums but im far from being new to comics so i thought id post a thread. Storm has fought Doom before and yes she did singlehandedly defeat him. Any1 who wants to see where this happens check out those big graphic novels called essential xmen. Theyre b+w reprints of the comics starting from the 2nd generation of xmen e.g storm, nightcrawler, collossus and thunderbird1 and banshee. Some1 said earlier that storm got turned into a chrome statue by Doom. That is true. The event im on about happened shortly afterwards. Although her body was obviously rendered inanimate her subconcious could still act and being a claustrophobe she lashed out with her powers to their full extent creating a hurricane type weather pattern which stretched over the entirety of the united states. When storm was freed her trauma had temporarily driven her totally irrational and consumed by her power she attacked friend and foe. For doing this to her she blasted Doom with high yield lightning. This knocked out his shields and he retreated commenting on how he could not survive another attack. EXIT DOOM. The energies she was generating were powerful enough to bring the nigh invulnerable collossus to his knees. It was too painful for him to approach her despite being in his metal form. This incident happened shortly after the dark phoenix saga and parallels were drawn between 'jeans' transformation and storms. The issue ended with storm not wanting to go the way of jean so she flew up into the atmosphere and worked with its energy patterns to disperse the hurricane weather.

None of that says she would win, by far. She's never knocked out his shields for the simple reason that they can't be knocked out, from the outside anyway.

Oh and welcome back Stormfront.

Made it a bit obvious with the "I'm new here but far from new to comics" comment though.

-AC

Well what you just said AC didnt undermine my argument in the slightest. She shot him with one bolt of lightning. He was repelled. Before she could fire another one he fled. Again i say EXIT DOOM. If he stayed its obvious that he would hav been taken out. Please read the comic. The arguments over. Serious im not stormfront ive just joined check out my profile theres a link to my homepage

Well you're a Storm fanboy/girl all the same.

I've read the comic. You're talking BS. Half the stuff you posted had nothing to do with Doom.

The argument was over when I got involved. It's just a mishmash of technicality now.

You or Stormfront (wink wink) have had no impact either way.

"Well what you just said AC didnt undermine my argument in the slightest."

Yeah, yeah it did. I'm the man but don't praise me too much.

-AC

ohh my god

Yessss go on.

Don't hold back on the AC bashing in regard to that last line. I know you want to.

Just remember to take jokes (or are they?) and we're all good.

-AC

Yes half the stuff i said had nothing to do with Doom because he was sent packing by storm in the first few pages of that issue therefore i went on to explain what happened in that issue so you knew i know what im talking about. He had to flee before he had an armor malfunction. I dont recall him fighting storm again which speaks for itself although i could be wrong...... But i doubt you could prove me so AC

aahaha holy shit. AC in kick-ass mode is the greatest thing I have seen since Never started ripping apart ass holes on the boards.

Yea, I'm only dropping by to comment on the "Dr. Doom not using magic" thing.

Dr. Doom used magic in the tournament to become runner-up for the Sorcerer Supreme. He did this with NO prior knowledge of how to use magic. After besting everyone except Dr. Strange, Dr. Strange himself went on to teach Doom magic.

We all know that Doom is in the top 3 most intellegent being in the MU, and him learning magic, first by himself IN the tournament he was competing in, and then actually being taught by the greatest human sorcerer on the planet, well, Doom's magical abilities are certainly nothing to be ****ed with.

Dr. Doom & Dr. Strange: Triumph and Torment. It's the same comic where Doom outsmarts Mephisto. Ingenious plot really.

"...... But i doubt you could prove me so AC"

As James Brown once said...."OOWWW WATCH ME!"

"Yes half the stuff i said had nothing to do with Doom because"

Because nothing. It had nothing to do with Doom there for I take it and use it as toilet paper.

"he was sent packing by storm in the first few pages of that issue therefore i went on to explain what happened in that issue so you knew i know what im talking about.............."He had to flee before he had an armor malfunction. I dont recall him fighting storm again which speaks for itself although i could be wrong"

Oh yeah, but wouldn't it give your argument above MORE strength if it was...you know...true and stuff?

-AC

is GalacticStorm the other storm guy that 's why i said ohh my god.

I am laughing my ass off rite now.

Probably.

I would have respected it alot more (if it is Stormfront) if he just stealthed in normally.

He decided to open his KMC posts with "I'm new here BUT I'm NOT new to comics." Aka You will think I am by my ridiculously ill-informed posts, but I'm not I swear.

-AC