what you are saying makes no sense. if what you are saying is true then why can storm use her powers in the danger room?? why can she use them in any place where there is a roof? BECAUSE SHE CAN!!! she can create weather as well as manipulate it!!and like I said before I know about doom, nut its not a lot. and you reading comics longer has nothing to do with who knows more!!
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Doom isn't smart though. That's me proven wrong.Is it just me that thinks the X-Men collectively are nothing great, and individually are essentially one dimensional generic characters? There are about 70 of them and still there's about one sub-plot of dramatic interest running across both films thus far.
movies have no bearing whatsoever...
and no, alot of them are complex characters with depth...
Doesn't all that percentage talk just prove that you're clinging onto this like your life depended on it? I've forced you so far into off-topicville that you've cancelled yourself out.
"The only way she'd be unable to affect the weather inside Doom's field is if it were a vacuum. Because he has an air supply in there, it's not. Therefore it has weather. Therefore it's easier for her to affect it."
His inner shield is dimensional. It has other dimensional properties. Unless she has some multi-dimensional power, I don't see her changing the forecast. He can manipulate it to have an air supply.
"Doom has had 40 years of continuity to use it. He hasn't. A magic forcefield is a useful thing. Sheer logic suggests that if there's something THAT useful that he'd know how to create that he'd create it at least once, right? We're not talking about something incidental - we're talking about the ability to render yourself completely impervious. And in 40 years he's never done it? C'mon now."
An atomic bomb is useful. He could just make one of those and use it. He hasn't, why? Coz he has other stuff at his disposal. Surfer never used his changing fate ability till last year, an ability he was cited to have since his creation. See where I'm going?
"You could use that logic in concert with magic to say ANYTHING. No, you don't get away with that. You've gotta prove that has can create the shield. Think about it - he sold his soul to demons to gain enough magic power to defeat the Fantastic Four. If all he needed to do was put up some impenetrable magic shield, it would have been an open and shut case. I mean - damn. The circumstantial evidence against him having that ability is overwhelming. "
Circumstantial, unless you noticed, means that it has happened. Fantasy battle?
Secondly, it would have been an open and shut case. An open and shut comic also, things have to be drawn out, it's where stories come from. Age of Apocalypse could have been over alot faster than it was, it was there to sell copies though.
You continually say I've gotta prove, when all you have is percentages. PERCENTAGES! Circumstancial evidence is all well and good but when we are going by a fight they haven't even had, it means nothing. Her one saving grace is manipulating inside his shield and the only thing keeping that alive for you is circumstancial evidence. Circumstancial evidence doesn't affect the future.
"You're essentially saying that with magic, he's omnipotent because there's nothing he couldn't do, regardless of never having done it."
Show me where, rather than making things up.
"Above, you're comparing unequal burdens by adding a specific clause to one that doesn't exist in the other. Not valid."
Unequal burdens? What the hell is this? Crossing over with John?
My point, however broad, was valid. She hasn't proven to be able to get through Dr. Doom's shield, which is the fabric of your already tattered sweater debate. Magical or not magical, she hasn't proven to be able to get through his shield, not that she could affect the inside of it from outside. Applying circumstancial evidence in the wrong place, AGAIN.
"If the computer grants you omnipotence when you turn it on, and you've always wanted to be omnipotent, then either it means that you tried and it didn't turn on, or you're an idiot and don't know how to turn it on. And I think we all agree that Doom isn't an idiot..."
Haha. Exactly, so are you ruling out the possibility that he just hasn't chosen (aka the writers haven't written him to yet) use his magical ability to create a shield? The fact is, magical shield or not, you don't know if Storm could manipulate it inside.
"Even after being taught by Strange, he had to cheat just to get to where he did? Some sorcerer..."
Confusing had with want. He's a bad guy, it's what they do.
"Incorrect. The surroundings ARE the environment. They're the same."
No, correct. She's not Proteus or Frankie Richards. She can't pull the ground up, hurl trees etc. She just works with the weather.
"Sure there is. It's an extension of the environment. You open your mouth to breath or speak and you take in that environment."
If you're actually falling so fast that you've resorted to "she could catch you breathing the wind in". I rest my case.
"Likewise when she was locked in a box as a teen and sustained herself by making it rain inside the box and drinking the water. So, if you wanna go by what they SHOULD be able to do, we're gonna have a party...."
If we're going by should. Do I need to say what it would mean for your whole debate if we involved the preptime that Doom should have? No.
"She manipulates it. BUT, like Graviton and his control over gravitons, weather is EVERYWHERE. We're surrounded by it. It's in us, it's part of us. She's more powerful in open conditions because there's more weather to call upon, but in tight environments, she can still use her powers. Enough to fill someone's lungs with water, or lightning jolt someone's heart."
She controls the elements, EARTH elements. I didn't know I had my own weather system.
As for Storm being able to fill lungs with water, you're stepping off into Claremontville. I understand the whole "She hasn't shown it, doesn't mean she can't", but it's ridiculous to assume, in a fight against Doom, this is all going to happen. She isn't going to be flying around fighting for her life while trying to conjure up a tornado in his left teste.
You also mentioned that if Doom hits her it's over. She isn't easy to hit, so? Doom's one of the best marksmen there is.
"But since you're ok with allowing people to do things they've never done...."
Apparantly. Storm has never got through Doom's shield, yet that's the basis of your debate. Whether she's done it to others before or not is irrelevant. As pointed out, even in the event she did, doesn't guarantee her the win. Everybody has weaknesses, if they fell to them as often as you'd have people believe, there'd be dead heroes and villains all over the place.
-AC
Originally posted by pr1983
movies cannot be used in a comic vs thread, they are hollywood bastardisations in most cases...im not rooting for storm, i dont even believe she'll win... but turning it into an x-men bashing thread is ridiculous...
I didn't use it. When you make a movie plot, what are you using as the source material?
That's the simple point. Nowt more.
The same point above applies to the comics in most cases anyway.
Originally posted by pr1983
no matter how badly they are represented?the movies were not adapted properly from the comics, they are made for financial purposes more than anything...
just because the movies were poor is no reflection on the comics themselves...
I think the fact that the movies had to utilise specific COMIC storylines is a reflection on them. Secondly, comics are made for financial purposes more than anything as well: it's not a charity industry.
However this is all going off topic wildly.
i agree, my apologies
comic writers must keep to a template though... bryan singer didn't...
a bad adaptation is no reflection on 40 years of comics...
i know comics are financial, my point was that most of the writers are at least writing about characters they like(in a lot of cases), they don't have to accomodate the demands of overrated actors...
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I don't think it is per se, I just think in that case it was notable in the absence of anything else, and I think it's the case in the comics as well.Anyway, what's the thread?
Oh yeah.
Doom.
thats your opinion, and your entitled to it, but imo the x-men has had some great writing (not recently though)...
tron i just saw your title... niiice...
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Doesn't all that percentage talk just prove that you're clinging onto this like your life depended on it?
No. All this percentage talk is proving that my speculation is backed by more evidence than yours is. A point you're avoiding like Ebola. But I would too, if I were in your position...
I've forced you so far into off-topicville that you've cancelled yourself out.
Don't flatter yourself. 1)We're not off-topic 2)You haven't forced me anywhere, Mr. "Well, he studied magic, so he can create magic forcefields now".
"The only way she'd be unable to affect the weather inside Doom's field is if it were a vacuum. Because he has an air supply in there, it's not. Therefore it has weather. Therefore it's easier for her to affect it."His inner shield is dimensional. It has other dimensional properties. Unless she has some multi-dimensional power, I don't see her changing the forecast. He can manipulate it to have an air supply.
Dimensional? What the Hell is a "dimensional forcefield"? Just because someone posted it from some Doom bio from...somewhere (it's on neither of the two major bio sites) doesn't make it so. That's one of your favorite arguments, AC - "Bios are often wrong, it's what's in the comics that matter". So now the tables are turned - what "dimensional" properties have been shown by Doom and his forcefield? Simple question.
And Doom doesn't "manipulate" his field to have an air supply. His field has an air supply. Nothing awesome about it, despite using the word "manipulate".
"Doom has had 40 years of continuity to use it. He hasn't. A magic forcefield is a useful thing. Sheer logic suggests that if there's something THAT useful that he'd know how to create that he'd create it at least once, right? We're not talking about something incidental - we're talking about the ability to render yourself completely impervious. And in 40 years he's never done it? C'mon now."An atomic bomb is useful. He could just make one of those and use it. He hasn't, why? Coz he has other stuff at his disposal. Surfer never used his changing fate ability till last year, an ability he was cited to have since his creation. See where I'm going?
Yeah. Nowhere.
An atomic bomb would just cause mass destruction. That's not part of Doom's goal. A FORCEFIELD is part of his arsenal - why wouldn't he include a magic one since he's already shown the inclination to create and use forcefields? It just doesn't make sense.
"You could use that logic in concert with magic to say ANYTHING. No, you don't get away with that. You've gotta prove that has can create the shield. Think about it - he sold his soul to demons to gain enough magic power to defeat the Fantastic Four. If all he needed to do was put up some impenetrable magic shield, it would have been an open and shut case. I mean - damn. The circumstantial evidence against him having that ability is overwhelming. "Circumstantial, unless you noticed, means that it has happened. Fantasy battle?
Huh? Circumstantial evidence is evidence that doesn't directly prove a point, but gives enough evidence about the point that you can make a well-informed assumption. There is good circumstantial evidence that Storm can affect Doom through his forcefield. There is likewise good circumstantial evidence that Doom can not create a magic forcefield. There is no circumstantial evidence that Doom can create a magic forcefield.
The bulk of your evidence is that Doom received training in magic. What type of magic? What did it entail? What spells did he cast? Were they defensive in nature or offensive? Was it combat magic? What kind? You can't just say, "he learned magic" and then jump to the conclusion that he can create forcefields. It doesn't work that way.
In fact, I could take this even further and say that not only has Doom never demonstrated creating a magic forcefield, he's demonstrated no combat speed magic whatsoever. All of the magic I've ever seen him use involved rituals and spell casting - it was never combat speed. I remember the storyline where he saved Valeria and used a magic ritual to do it. I remember when he went through a ritual to communicate with demons. A ritual where he was able to communicate with his "mother". A ritual where he engaged a demon in annual combat (and didn't use magic and lost). A ritual where he was transported to the underworld. A ritual where he was able to see into another dimension or another location. I've NEVER seen him do ANY type of magic that didn't involve some sort of lengthy preparation.
So now that throws not only his ability to create a forcefield into question, but his ability to even use combat magic AT ALL into question. He used tech to win his magic battles; very little magic. And that was with prep. And he gets none.
[offtopic]
I'm going to the comic store later to beef up on my knowledge of magic. It's always been a sore spot for me because it just seems like a blank check. Reality warping. There have to be some stipulations there, otherwise magicians would rule the universe...
[/offtopic]
Secondly, it would have been an open and shut case. An open and shut comic also, things have to be drawn out, it's where stories come from. Age of Apocalypse could have been over alot faster than it was, it was there to sell copies though.
I don't understand where any of this is coming from.
You continually say I've gotta prove, when all you have is percentages. PERCENTAGES!
You know good and well that these are percentages BASED on proof. I have circumstantial evidence that shows that Storm is MORE likely than NOT able to affect Doom through his shield. MORE likely than NOT = more than 50%.
Circumstancial evidence is all well and good but when we are going by a fight they haven't even had, it means nothing.
What?? DEAD WRONG. When you're going by a fight they haven't even had, circumstantial evidence is ALL WE HAVE. They haven't fought yet - so there IS no direct evidence.
Her one saving grace is manipulating inside his shield and the only thing keeping that alive for you is circumstancial evidence. Circumstancial evidence doesn't affect the future.
Circumstantial evidence is the ONLY way to predict the future. Are you smokin something or just completely run out of arguments?
"You're essentially saying that with magic, he's omnipotent because there's nothing he couldn't do, regardless of never having done it."Show me where, rather than making things up.
My sentiments exactly. If you're saying that just by virtue of "knowing magic" (which is a vague term), that he can create impenetrable magic forcefields, then you can say Doom can do anything magical, can't you? What's to stop you from saying he can conjure an atomic bomb, or casting a null spell that turns off Storm's abilities? They're all spells that Doom hasn't done, but they're all spells, right? Does that mean you can argue any of that, or all of that? Why not? What's the difference? Magic is just a deus ex machina.
"Above, you're comparing unequal burdens by adding a specific clause to one that doesn't exist in the other. Not valid."Unequal burdens? What the hell is this? Crossing over with John?
Don't avoid the point. The point is you're comparing two things with unequal standards. You're equating "He hasn't created a magical shield" with "Storm hasn't affected Doom through his shield". You CAN'T equate the two, because you're adding an additional clause to her comparison. You're saying that Storn hasn't affected DOOM through his shield and saying that it's the same as Doom not having created a magical shield. It's not a valid comparison. You MUST prove that Doom has created a magical shield, because circumstantial evidence shows he can not.
My point, however broad, was valid. She hasn't proven to be able to get through Dr. Doom's shield, which is the fabric of your already tattered sweater debate.
But that's a completely unfair level of proof required. You're saying the only way I can prove that Storm is able to affect Doom through his shield is by showing she has already affected him through his shield? And yet, just by Doom "knowing magic", he can put up magic shields even though he's never done it? That's ridiculous.
She's had 100% success in getting through shields. That's a damn good track record. Doom has had 0% success in creating magic shields. The numbers speak for themselves.
Magical or not magical, she hasn't proven to be able to get through his shield, not that she could affect the inside of it from outside. Applying circumstancial evidence in the wrong place, AGAIN.
Me providing proof that Storm has specifically affected Doom from within his shield would NOT be circumstantial evidence. It would be direct proof. We've already established that direct proof is impossible because they've never fought (aside from the two encounters). So you HAVE to use circumstantial evidence. The best circumstantial evidence is to show that Storm can affect people from within their shields. I've done so. she's done so. That's as good a circumstantial evidence as you can ever get.
"If the computer grants you omnipotence when you turn it on, and you've always wanted to be omnipotent, then either it means that you tried and it didn't turn on, or you're an idiot and don't know how to turn it on. And I think we all agree that Doom isn't an idiot..."Haha. Exactly, so are you ruling out the possibility that he just hasn't chosen (aka the writers haven't written him to yet) use his magical ability to create a shield? The fact is, magical shield or not, you don't know if Storm could manipulate it inside.
I am ruling out that possibility because it wouldn't make sense that he'd choose not to use something that potent. Doom, a power monger? Not using something that renders him almost completely untouchable? Are you serious? C'mon now, even YOU should know better...
And for the 1000th time; yes, I don't KNOW that Storm could manipulate inside of Doom's field. But, circumstantial evidence is in my favor. That means if I were in Vegas and I had to place a bet, I'd bet on Storm because she's had 100% success in affecting people through their shields.
"Even after being taught by Strange, he had to cheat just to get to where he did? Some sorcerer..."Confusing had with want. He's a bad guy, it's what they do.
hahahaha...are you serious? Are you honestly saying that Doom thought, "Hmm, I could win this fair and square, but I'm a bad guy, so I'm going to go through all this effort to cheat because, hey, I'm evil! mwa ha ha ha!"
I'll assume you were kidding.
"Incorrect. The surroundings ARE the environment. They're the same."No, correct. She's not Proteus or Frankie Richards. She can't pull the ground up, hurl trees etc. She just works with the weather.
I didn't say he could hurl trees or pull the ground up or any of that. I'm saying she works with the weather, and the weather is EVERYWHERE. Including in your lugs. That air you're breathing? You ain't making it yourself.
"Sure there is. It's an extension of the environment. You open your mouth to breath or speak and you take in that environment."If you're actually falling so fast that you've resorted to "she could catch you breathing the wind in".
And why not? She controls weather within an environment. That includes EVERYPLACE that environment extends to. That includes the inside of your body. Wind is air. Air is in your lungs. It's all the same thing. It's all connected. You control one, you control them all.
"Likewise when she was locked in a box as a teen and sustained herself by making it rain inside the box and drinking the water. So, if you wanna go by what they SHOULD be able to do, we're gonna have a party...."If we're going by should. Do I need to say what it would mean for your whole debate if we involved the preptime that Doom should have? No.
If Doom had prep time, then there wouldn't be a debate, because I've said (many times) they Doom with prep time wins. But we're not debating with prep time, are we? The thread author never specified prep time. Even now, he's not.
She controls the elements, EARTH elements. I didn't know I had my own weather system.
You don't, and that's precisely the point. You have the earth's weather system flowing through you. It's how your lungs don't collapse. It's how you don't freeze to death. You are, essentially, a glass jar with some openings. If Storm could create a storm inside a glass jar, she can create one inside of you.
As for Storm being able to fill lungs with water, you're stepping off into Claremontville. I understand the whole "She hasn't shown it, doesn't mean she can't", but it's ridiculous to assume, in a fight against Doom, this is all going to happen. She isn't going to be flying around fighting for her life while trying to conjure up a tornado in his left teste.
It's no more or less likely than Doom summoning Cytorrak and putting up Juggernaut's forcefield. Storm can just go and take cover someplace, close her eyes, and fill up Doom's lungs. Or give him a heart attack.
You also mentioned that if Doom hits her it's over. She isn't easy to hit, so? Doom's one of the best marksmen there is.
All of which is well and good...if he could see her. Between flash bangs and fog, that's no easy task.
"But since you're ok with allowing people to do things they've never done...."Apparantly. Storm has never got through Doom's shield, yet that's the basis of your debate. Whether she's done it to others before or not is irrelevant.
And this is what it all boils down to in the end. We've gotten into this deadlock where we're largely repeating ourselves. YOU say it's not relevant, I say it IS relevant, because with three different types of forcefields, she's affected it from the inside. And in the absense of compelling evidence that would show why Doom's forcefield is the exception, her prior success is EXTREMELY relevant.
As pointed out, even in the event she did, doesn't guarantee her the win. Everybody has weaknesses, if they fell to them as often as you'd have people believe, there'd be dead heroes and villains all over the place.
You're right, it doesn't guarantee her the win. Or him. Nothing is guaranteed, because it comes down to the writer.
Listen. In the end, the only proof you're willing to accept is Storm actually affecting Doom from WITHIN his shield, when you know that no such proof exists because they've never fought. So despite the fact that I've given you the next best thing, the only evidence in the marvel universe that exists as a predictor, you reject it. I can do no more than that. But what little evidence exists is clearly in my favor. That's what it comes down to, despite all this stuff above and below.
How did I get back to two posts again?
Oh my god!!! This is still going on. People please listen. This fight has happened already in Uncanny Xmen and storm won with ease. Thats it case closed. Storm sees everything around her as energy patterns. She psionically manipulates the energy patterns in her environment to create various weather effects. She can create a weather pattern as small as the palm of her hand or as large as the entire united states. The only weather aspect she can generate herself is lightning which she generates through her own natural bioelectric field. If u want proof of this check out the first time the 2nd generation of xmen encountered arcade in uncanny xmen. The others such as wind and rain are through manipulating environmental energy patterns. Everyone has a natural electrical field. Storm can manipulate this field. So sorry to prove u wrong once again AC but this can be proven by storms confrontation with Shinobi shaw who could turn intangible. He threatened to grab storms heart out of her body and she threatened to manipulate his bioelectric field to shut down his heart. Thats the only time i can recall her portraying that ability but being a hero she resorts to does type of actions only as a last resort. The fights happened storm won its over.
"How did I get back to two posts again?"
By splitting my one post into two essays after saying you didn't wanna go point-to-point. Yet you claim you're not desperate.
"Don't flatter yourself. 1)We're not off-topic 2)You haven't forced me anywhere, Mr. "Well, he studied magic, so he can create magic forcefields now"."
Silly, that's not my name. Oh I see you're making a joke. I was aware that going into mathematics was ON topic. I certainly didn't take the debate there.
"So now the tables are turned - what "dimensional" properties have been shown by Doom and his forcefield? Simple question."
He can't travel through time uneffected PURELY by a material shield. He has to create the "pocket" (if you will), dimension inside his shield. How do you think he time travels without ageing?
"Yeah. Nowhere. An atomic bomb would just cause mass destruction. That's not part of Doom's goal. A FORCEFIELD is part of his arsenal - why wouldn't he include a magic one since he's already shown the inclination to create and use forcefields? It just doesn't make sense."
Hahahaha, coz nowhere.....ahh, smooth 😉. You dodged my example. Surfer was cited to have an ability since his creation that he didn't use till last year. Same applies to Doom with magic, he just hasn't used it. We know he has magic, we know that.
"There is good circumstantial evidence that Storm can affect Doom through his forcefield. There is likewise good circumstantial evidence that Doom can not create a magic forcefield. There is no circumstantial evidence that Doom can create a magic forcefield."
Other than the fact that he has been taught magic?
"The bulk of your evidence is that Doom received training in magic. What type of magic? What did it entail? What spells did he cast? Were they defensive in nature or offensive? Was it combat magic? What kind? You can't just say, "he learned magic" and then jump to the conclusion that he can create forcefields. It doesn't work that way."
Yet you can jump to the conclusion that he can and cannot do things? You can assume that he did or didn't learn certain things? He was taught by Dr. Strange, sorcerer supreme. He's acknowledged by Strange as having magical powers.
You are targeting the fact that I said it's probably within his ability to summon a magical shield. Do you remember what my original point was in doing so? That magical or normal, if Storm cannot manipulate him through either, then there is no trickery. THAT'S my point.
"I have circumstantial evidence that shows that Storm is MORE likely than NOT able to affect Doom through his shield. MORE likely than NOT = more than 50%."
How much more? 60...70....80? Does the fact that I can knock people out mean that I can go and do it to Mike Tyson? Circumstantial evidence and all that.
"Circumstantial evidence is the ONLY way to predict the future. Are you smokin something or just completely run out of arguments?"
Smokin'.
Like I just said, it all boils down to "She's done these things to them, so the chance exists she could do it to him". Yeah? Never denied it, that's what it is though. A chance. CHANCE.
"They're all spells that Doom hasn't done, but they're all spells, right? Does that mean you can argue any of that, or all of that? Why not? What's the difference? Magic is just a deus ex machina."
I said that due to learning magic from Dr. Strange, it's not far removed to assume he learned basic defence....shields.....not rocket science.
"equating "He hasn't created a magical shield" with "Storm hasn't affected Doom through his shield". You CAN'T equate the two, because you're adding an additional clause to her comparison. "
No I am not. I'm saying, while you are making a fair assumption (I already admitted I can see why), that's all it is. I'm saying Doom can CREATE forcefields (magical possibly, or his standard one). Storm hasn't proven to be able to get through it and anything you say on that matter is (fair) assumption. Assumption nonetheless.
"You're saying the only way I can prove that Storm is able to affect Doom through his shield is by showing she has already affected him through his shield? And yet, just by Doom "knowing magic", he can put up magic shields even though he's never done it? That's ridiculous. She's had 100% success in getting through shields. That's a damn good track record. Doom has had 0% success in creating magic shields. The numbers speak for themselves."
A) Yes. B) No, I said don't assume he can't. C) Didn't you say the only reason Storm hasn't had 100% success with Doom's shield is coz she hasn't tried? I could say the same about him putting one up.
You're missing the main point. Magical or not, right, if she cannot get through his shield, then she has lost the one attack she has. This one thing she has, is speculatory.
Continued next post.
-AC