Originally posted by Alpha CentauriAt the risk of turning this into Magneto/Doom, I haven't attended to your points about it. We can do that another time if you wish.
Magneto vs. Doom thread's gotta be around here somewhere.
Well lets go with the more likely chance that he will use his forcefield, why are you assuming he's not gonna take her out before she can affect his circuitry?
Because she's good at dodging energy blasts. She's pretty mobile and doesn't need line of sight to affect him. If you're going with quickdraw logic for this, Doom loses unless he gets a direct hit early. And just as Doom is smart enough to put his shields up, Storm is smart enough to not just stand in front of him and blast away. That probably throws the quickdraw argument out of the window for both of us.
What makes you think that in Doom's suit, any level of electricity is going to affect it? Do you believe Doom built it and forgot to make it invulnerable to electricity?
Well, given how he's been toasted by Torch on several occasions, I figure if he forgot to fireproof his armor when ONE OF HIS SWORN ENEMIES HAS FIRE POWER, he may have neglected to add in some grounding too...
...moreover, if his armor without the shield were electricity-proof, she wouldn't have disabled his gauntlet, would she?
The only widespread attack Storm has is wind.
?????
Are you serious? She controls the weather - the most widespread force of destruction in all of nature. Wind is by NO means the only widespread attack she has. She doesn't just propel lighting from her hands like it's some kind of gatling gun. She can summon lightning attacks from the sky. From the atmophere anywhere. She doesn't need to aim. She just needs to envision where the affect will take place and it does. Storm doesn't really even need to be on the battlefield to attack Doom.
Doom could and probably would just crack out an attack that will drench the area.
I've seen a similar attack in Marvel vs. Capcom. But I don't recall him doing that in the comic. But I'll defer to your knowledge of him in this instance - when has he done such an omnidirectional attack using just his armor?
Doesn't matter how athletic she is. That's the thing with Doom. He doesn't be precise where he doesn't needs to be. Just over does it, gets all bases covered.
I'll bet you dollars to donuts that Storm has the market on widespread attacks cornered. Trust me, she's got him beat there, as well as attack range.
What "RULES"?
I don't make 'em up. Just follow 'em. If you want to ask CountQuan for stipulations to qualify the battle, be my guest. Methinks he's (wisely) fled some time ago, lol.
No offence but what's the point of having rules in a fantasy battle? Some of Marvel's characters, Doom for one, aren't applicable to rules. Those rules are just silly. There are characters who live off prep. What about them? Are they gonna be subject to loss on every battle as a result of these "rules"? Come on.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t308157.html
I'm telling you, I'm not making it up. Says right there, lol.
Either way, going by your quote, it's 2-1 Doom.
Indeed. But one of those aren't allowed according to the rules ("no prep"😉. So it's more like 1-1.
"How about the Beyonder returns and instantly teleports Doom and Storm to a remote location and says, "FIGHT! NOW! OR EARTH IS DESTROYED!".There you have it. Random Doom encounter."
He didn't do that in this fight. Nor did that happen, or would it.
But it's considered a random encounter. No matter how distasteful it is to you. Come up with whatever plot point you want, if having the Beyonder return isn't palatable to you.
You could also use that random Doom encounter when he popped out to collect the mail and Storm was walking her dog. Or when Doom stepped out for a game of tennis and Storm happened to be mowing his lawn and decided to fight.
Like that one.
Psst, random Doom encounters don't really happen do they?
Storm needing to fight Doom by herself in the first place doesn't really happen either. Superman Prime fighting Living Tribunal doesn't really happen, either. You can't pick on the impracticality of this one if you're not going to do it to all of them.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Allow me to assist.a·nal·o·gy
Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.
Thank you for the assist. And since you're feeling so helpful, if you'd like to explain that analogy, I'd appreciate that even more.
Actually he wasn't...he powered down five of the Infinity Gems, leaving Power at 100%, so Doom received the full brunt.
Given that people have taken hits by beings wielding the Power Gem lots of times, that's not all that impressive.
...And taking Surfer's board off him, by fighting him.
You know, I've heard this referenced many times over the years, but I've never actually seen the battle. If anybody has any scans of it, or a description of what exactly happened, I'd love to see how he pulled it off. Obviously it happened, but I'd love to know more about it.
"Well, given how he's been toasted by Torch on several occasions, I figure if he forgot to fireproof his armor when ONE OF HIS SWORN ENEMIES HAS FIRE POWER, he may have neglected to add in some grounding too......moreover, if his armor without the shield were electricity-proof, she wouldn't have disabled his gauntlet, would she?"
May have, but likely not. Secondly, his gauntlet was separate from his suit. It wasn't his regular glove, which is part of the suit. It's all one working machine, if she disabled his glove and it was all connected, he'd have concked out.
"She can summon lightning attacks from the sky. From the atmophere anywhere. She doesn't need to aim. She just needs to envision where the affect will take place and it does. Storm doesn't really even need to be on the battlefield to attack Doom."
Yeah but lightning can come from anywhere in the sky naturally. As we all know, metals are susceptible. If Doom was vulnerable to lightning, his whole suit, we'd have seen him defeated many times. Do you think he's incapable of fighting in storms? No he isn't.
"I've seen a similar attack in Marvel vs. Capcom. But I don't recall him doing that in the comic. But I'll defer to your knowledge of him in this instance - when has he done such an omnidirectional attack using just his armor?"
You've never seen him create flash bang attacks? What's Storm gonna do without her eyes?
"I'll bet you dollars to donuts that Storm has the market on widespread attacks cornered. Trust me, she's got him beat there, as well as attack range."
Yeah and they're still gonna be as non-effective. Range doesn't really equate to power with Storm.
As for the rules: "At teh moment, these rules are a bit experimental, so they'll be changed from time to time. Lets see if we can make these debates work a little better."
It's not is it? It's making them extremely one-sided for characters who use their brains rather than brawn. I never said you made the rules, I just said it's a bit stupid treating Marvel Super Characters like Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield. They're not gonna be in some ring are they?
"Indeed. But one of those aren't allowed according to the rules ("no prep"😉. So it's more like 1-1."
The rules are BS though aren't they? Do you actually think, reading through those specified rules, that they are applicable to a Marvel fight? I don't.
"But it's considered a random encounter. No matter how distasteful it is to you. Come up with whatever plot point you want, if having the Beyonder return isn't palatable to you."
I'm just saying, you can do that but we know it wouldn't happen.
"Like that one."
If you couldn't tell that was mostly humour, I dunno how more blatant to make it.
"Storm needing to fight Doom by herself in the first place doesn't really happen either. Superman Prime fighting Living Tribunal doesn't really happen, either. You can't pick on the impracticality of this one if you're not going to do it to all of them."
I'm talking in relation to your "Storm wins if they have a random encounter" claim. Yes, you're going by rules but it's like saying Tony Stark has no prep time.
-AC
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
May have, but likely not. Secondly, his gauntlet was separate from his suit. It wasn't his regular glove, which is part of the suit. It's all one working machine, if she disabled his glove and it was all connected, he'd have concked out.
Why would he shield his armor and not his main offense??? The only answer has to be that he's applied the same treatment to his armor as he did his gauntlet - that is, no electrical shielding. It wouldn't make sense for him to half-ass it.
Yeah but lightning can come from anywhere in the sky naturally. As we all know, metals are susceptible. If Doom was vulnerable to lightning, his whole suit, we'd have seen him defeated many times. Do you think he's incapable of fighting in storms? No he isn't.
Planes fly in thunderstorms too. The difference is, there's no directed pulse of electrical energy targeting the circuitry. Doom fighting in a storm is akin to that plane. He can ground himself so that he doesn't attract electricity. But that doesn't mean he's immune to direct attack.
And keep in mind, we're only arguing lighting. She can create vortexes, pressure systems, fill his armor with water, or a combination of all of the above. If he's got defenses for all of that, then the fact that he still doesn't have a way to see Sue or not get fried by Torch in fights is a damn shame....
You've never seen him create flash bang attacks? What's Storm gonna do without her eyes?
Flash bang? Doom got flash bang? Nobody flash bangs better than Storm. She controls lightning, afterall...
It's not is it? It's making them extremely one-sided for characters who use their brains rather than brawn. I never said you made the rules, I just said it's a bit stupid treating Marvel Super Characters like Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield. They're not gonna be in some ring are they?
*shrug*
The rules are BS though aren't they? Do you actually think, reading through those specified rules, that they are applicable to a Marvel fight? I don't.
Well, the idea of automatically dismissing a fight as being impractical under neutral stipulations is just as silly. We're talking about comic books. Writers can come up with whatever reasons they want to have run-ins. Hell, Doom was in NYC in a recent issue of Spider-Man, where he had a random encounter with some Latverian terrorists who nearly killed him. The man isn't immune to random encounters.
"But it's considered a random encounter. No matter how distasteful it is to you. Come up with whatever plot point you want, if having the Beyonder return isn't palatable to you."I'm just saying, you can do that but we know it wouldn't happen.
Because the Beyonder has never gratuitously and randomly teleported Doom and the X-men someplace and told them to fight?
"Like that one."If you couldn't tell that was mostly humour, I dunno how more blatant to make it.
I know. I was being sarcastic in response to your sarcasm, lol.
"Storm needing to fight Doom by herself in the first place doesn't really happen either. Superman Prime fighting Living Tribunal doesn't really happen, either. You can't pick on the impracticality of this one if you're not going to do it to all of them."I'm talking in relation to your "Storm wins if they have a random encounter" claim. Yes, you're going by rules but it's like saying Tony Stark has no prep time.
Tony Stark has fought without preptime. Plenty of times. But if you want to settle by saying Doom wins with prep, Storm wins in sudden combat and leave the rest to stormfront, I'm down, lol. I'll even say that "prep" is more likely to happen in an actual fight if it'll make you happy.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It's quite simple, just because a defensive strategy is not complete, does not render it useless.
Except that when you cause a storm inside the shield, bypassing the shield entirely....the shield becomes useless.
Since you like analogies, here's one:
Same boxer, except instead he's getting punched from the inside. Doesn't much matter whether he's protecting his head or middle section anymore, does it?
"Why would he shield his armor and not his main offense??? The only answer has to be that he's applied the same treatment to his armor as he did his gauntlet - that is, no electrical shielding. It wouldn't make sense for him to half-ass it."
Or....the shielding comes from technology inside his suit. The gauntlet was stand alone.
"Planes fly in thunderstorms too. The difference is, there's no directed pulse of electrical energy targeting the circuitry. Doom fighting in a storm is akin to that plane. He can ground himself so that he doesn't attract electricity. But that doesn't mean he's immune to direct attack. And keep in mind, we're only arguing lighting. She can create vortexes, pressure systems, fill his armor with water, or a combination of all of the above."
Storm can only aim at Doom. Right? She can't set her electricity to target circuits. If Doom gets hit by a bolt of lightning it won't do much. Whether it's coming from the clouds or from Storm doesn't matter. She controls the weather, lest we forget. Vortexs and pressure systems? Doom travels through time and space. These will do what?
"If he's got defenses for all of that, then the fact that he still doesn't have a way to see Sue or not get fried by Torch in fights is a damn shame...."
Yeah but he's not fighting them. So...yep.
"Flash bang? Doom got flash bang? Nobody flash bangs better than Storm. She controls lightning, afterall..."
Yeah.........I know. Can't quite see what you're trying to prove. You asked, I answered.
"Hell, Doom was in NYC in a recent issue of Spider-Man, where he had a random encounter with some Latverian terrorists who nearly killed him. The man isn't immune to random encounters."
I never said he was. Said they rarely ever happen.
"Because the Beyonder has never gratuitously and randomly teleported Doom and the X-men someplace and told them to fight?"
He's never teleported Doom to Storm and say "Fight" one on one.
I don't think Storm would win in sudden combat. I doubt she's gonna instantly do anything that Doom couldn't come back from should the very rare occurance happen. He got blasted with the gauntlet and got RIGHT up. So if anything it'll just start a fight, a fight I believe Doom would win easily.
-AC
It's not hard to grasp. Sure, Doom putting up his forcefield will prevent Storm from, I dunno, hitting him with hail from the sky. Or blowing machinery, rock and equipment around and hitting him with it. Fine. Great. Yay. I never said otherwise, which is why I never mentioned any of that. What I did say is that she can affect him from inside of his forcefield, which makes the forcefield USELESS to that kind of attack.
Why is THAT so hard to grasp?
You didn't say to that kind of attack, you said it makes it useless per se.
What kind of leap of logic is that? Storm has an attack that can bypass the forcefield, therefore the forcefield is useless.
Someone could shoot a police officer, so they shouldn't wear stab vests?
The forcefield will effectively reduce her effectiveness to that attack only. How does that equate with making it a non-consideration in the fight?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Or....the shielding comes from technology inside his suit. The gauntlet was stand alone.
But why would a gauntlet that is his standard weapon not have the same shielding technology that is inside his suit? It's his primary means of attack! Without it, he's lost a major offensive option. It wouldn't make sense for it to have been proved that he didn't shield the circuits in his primary weapon from lightning but to assume that he applied some shielding against it in his armor. There's no reason for the inconsistency, unless he didn't shield it anywhere.
Storm can only aim at Doom. Right? She can't set her electricity to target circuits.
That was how she took out the gauntlet. The electricity reaches past and through the metal joints into the underlying circuitry. Metal isn't a shield against electricity - it conducts it through everything inside of it.
If Doom gets hit by a bolt of lightning it won't do much. Whether it's coming from the clouds or from Storm doesn't matter.
Sure it does - just as sometimes lightning destroys a plane's engine and sends it crashing to the ground or causing an electrical blackout that causes it to crash. It's just that the odds are against that happening because lightning is random.
She controls the weather, lest we forget. Vortexs and pressure systems? Doom travels through time and space. These will do what?
Travels through time and space? Great! So after he gets flash fried, he can go back in time when medical treatment was cheap and get patched up...
"If he's got defenses for all of that, then the fact that he still doesn't have a way to see Sue or not get fried by Torch in fights is a damn shame...."Yeah but he's not fighting them. So...yep.
It proves that if he hasn't even built into his standard armor the means of repelling his greatest enemies, why would he build a means of repelling some random X-chick? It's because his armor is probably a lot more basic than you're crediting it, because he relies almost exclusively on his forcefield, which is why he's always getting nailed with its down.
"Flash bang? Doom got flash bang? Nobody flash bangs better than Storm. She controls lightning, afterall..."Yeah.........I know. Can't quite see what you're trying to prove. You asked, I answered.
ok, so he has a wide area "attack" that simulates what she can do naturally. Great, so they can blind each other.
"Hell, Doom was in NYC in a recent issue of Spider-Man, where he had a random encounter with some Latverian terrorists who nearly killed him. The man isn't immune to random encounters."I never said he was. Said they rarely ever happen.
You said never. But now that we've upgraded to "rarely", we can say that one of those "rarely"s would be in whatever fight brings him into conflict with Storm. It's really not that hard to think of lots of scenarios where that would happen. Do I really have to come up with them? Hell, that happened the most recently time he fought Magneto.
"Because the Beyonder has never gratuitously and randomly teleported Doom and the X-men someplace and told them to fight?"He's never teleported Doom to Storm and say "Fight" one on one.
No, but it wouldn't have been outside the realm of possibility for Storm to just go hogwild and attack Doom as soon as she saw him, thinking he was somehow responsible for teleporting her.
I don't think Storm would win in sudden combat. I doubt she's gonna instantly do anything that Doom couldn't come back from should the very rare occurance happen. He got blasted with the gauntlet and got RIGHT up. So if anything it'll just start a fight, a fight I believe Doom would win easily.
The gauntlet blast was concussive - it was designed to blast a hole in whatever it touched. Doom was shielded and survived. it wasn't designed to disable his armor or bypass the shield. That's not the same as subverting the shield entirely and frying the electronics. It's a completely different type of attack.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
You didn't say to that kind of attack, you said it makes it useless per se.
*sigh* ok. It makes it useless to that kind of attack, but I'm sure it's very useful against attacks that Storm won't use....happy?
What kind of leap of logic is that? Storm has an attack that can bypass the forcefield, therefore the forcefield is useless.
Um...because if someone can bypass the thing that protects you, then it's not protecting you anymore?
Someone could shoot a police officer, so they shouldn't wear stab vests?
It means that if someone shoots a police officer, then his stab vest was useless. Doesn't mean he shouldn't have had it on. Likewise, I definitely think Doom should have his forcefield up. I'd absolutely recommend that to him if he asked me. Then Storm would light him up from within the field and that he'd still be fried, like he never had it. But I still think he should use it.
Originally posted by demigawdUm...because if someone can bypass the thing that protects you, then it's not protecting you anymore?
That's simplifying the argument for your purposes. It's not logical. It's still protecting him against certain attacks, thereby limiting Storm's effectiveness. This does not mean 'the fact that Doom will or will not have his forcefield up becomes irrevelant' as you claimed.
You are either clinging on to that point in the hope of saving face, or (and it CANNOT be possible) you do not see why the statement 'the fact that Doom will or will not have his forcefield up becomes irrevelant' is untrue.
"But why would a gauntlet that is his standard weapon not have the same shielding technology that is inside his suit? It's his primary means of attack! Without it, he's lost a major offensive option. It wouldn't make sense for it to have been proved that he didn't shield the circuits in his primary weapon from lightning but to assume that he applied some shielding against it in his armor. There's no reason for the inconsistency, unless he didn't shield it anywhere."
This is all about how you don't believe it worked. I don't know how Doom wires his suits, nor can I ask him, I'm doing by what I saw.
"That was how she took out the gauntlet. The electricity reaches past and through the metal joints into the underlying circuitry. Metal isn't a shield against electricity - it conducts it through everything inside of it."
Yes but she can't specifically configure it to hit circuits. It's not like setting phasers to stun. She can't set her electricity to circuits. If she can't hit the metal she can't hit the circuits.
"It's just that the odds are against that happening because lightning is random."
True. Well assuming the shield is up, she can't hit him with lightning bolts anyway. So it's moot.
"Travels through time and space? Great! So after he gets flash fried, he can go back in time when medical treatment was cheap and get patched up..."
Completely missed my point. He travels through vortexs, space pressure etc.
"It proves that if he hasn't even built into his standard armor the means of repelling his greatest enemies, why would he build a means of repelling some random X-chick? It's because his armor is probably a lot more basic than you're crediting it, because he relies almost exclusively on his forcefield, which is why he's always getting nailed with its down."
He became Dr. Doom before he met the F4, first off.
Second, like or love, there's nothing basic about Doom. Much less his armour.
Third, he relies on what comes out of his suit to commit offense. He has his forcefield. Which apparantly works rather well.
"You said never. But now that we've upgraded to "rarely", we can say that one of those "rarely"s would be in whatever fight brings him into conflict with Storm. It's really not that hard to think of lots of scenarios where that would happen. Do I really have to come up with them? Hell, that happened the most recently time he fought Magneto. "
Let's not weasel my words. I never said he is IMMUNE to random encounters.
"The gauntlet blast was concussive - it was designed to blast a hole in whatever it touched. Doom was shielded and survived. it wasn't designed to disable his armor or bypass the shield. That's not the same as subverting the shield entirely and frying the electronics. It's a completely different type of attack."
He survived coz his suit is the shit. It burned his cape off, so he wasn't shielded at that one point. He survived coz of his "basic" suit.
-AC
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
That's simplifying the argument for your purposes. It's not logical. It's still protecting him against certain attacks, thereby limiting Storm's effectiveness. This does not mean 'the fact that Doom will or will not have his forcefield up becomes irrevelant' as you claimed.
I can't believe you're utterly focused on such a minute point. YES, having the shield up protects him from certain attacks. I think we're in agreement on this. NO, it won't limit Storm's effectiveness in any way that will affect the outcome of the battle. Because Storm can affect Doom through his shield, he will be hurt as through he never had it. That's what I've been saying all this time. Why do you keep arguing that? Did I say that Doom's forcefield becomes completely ineffective against Storm? Maybe I did, so if it'll make you drop the issue, I'll correct myself.
Doom's forcefield becomes ALMOST completely ineffective against Storm.
There.
I dearly hope this helps you sleep better tonight.
You are either clinging on to that point in the hope of saving face, or (and it CANNOT be possible) you do not see why the statement 'the fact that Doom will or will not have his forcefield up becomes irrevelant' is untrue.
Saving face? Saving face from what? Even if that point were completely off base (and it's not), it hardly collapses my argument. Proving that I said "completely ineffective" instead of "almost completely ineffective" does not cause me to lose the debate. My major point that Storm can do damn near anything she wants to Doom through his shield is the crux of my argument. Attack that and then you're getting somewhere. Otherwise, you're attacking Galactus' foot when everyone else is focusing on his head and heart.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This is all about how you don't believe it worked. I don't know how Doom wires his suits, nor can I ask him, I'm doing by what I saw.
But neither of us have seen Doom take a direct hit from a bolt of lighting to know whether or not he's immune to it. So we can only go by circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence shows that he's not shielding against a lot of basic elements, like fire. Circumstantial evidence also shows that his electronics were disabled by a lighting strike by the opponent in question. Therefore, the circumstantial evidence is stronger in favor of the fact that his armor isn't proofed against electricity than it is that it is proofed against it.
Yes but she can't specifically configure it to hit circuits. It's not like setting phasers to stun. She can't set her electricity to circuits. If she can't hit the metal she can't hit the circuits.True. Well assuming the shield is up, she can't hit him with lightning bolts anyway. So it's moot.
that goes back to my original point that she can affect him through the shields. If the shields are up, she just creates an environment inside the shields that include lighting, striking him from within his own shield.
"Travels through time and space? Great! So after he gets flash fried, he can go back in time when medical treatment was cheap and get patched up..."Completely missed my point. He travels through vortexs, space pressure etc.
Not without some kind of transport device, I assume, right? Or a forcefield with an air supply, right? I mean, his skin shows through his armor, so he'd have to put something up to breathe, right?
"It proves that if he hasn't even built into his standard armor the means of repelling his greatest enemies, why would he build a means of repelling some random X-chick? It's because his armor is probably a lot more basic than you're crediting it, because he relies almost exclusively on his forcefield, which is why he's always getting nailed with its down."He became Dr. Doom before he met the F4, first off.
Tony upgrades his armor to deal with threats. Doom can't? His armor was evidently so useless against the Fantastic Four that he gave it up entirely and went to sorcery...
Third, he relies on what comes out of his suit to commit offense. He has his forcefield. Which apparantly works rather well.
His gauntlet has always been his primary offense. Why would he use that as his primary offense and not have shielded it if he shielded everything else? It's the circumstantial evidence that makes me find the fact that she's anti-lightning so hard to believe.
"You said never. But now that we've upgraded to "rarely", we can say that one of those "rarely"s would be in whatever fight brings him into conflict with Storm. It's really not that hard to think of lots of scenarios where that would happen. Do I really have to come up with them? Hell, that happened the most recently time he fought Magneto. "Let's not weasel my words. I never said he is IMMUNE to random encounters.
ok, so...this is one of those random encounters to which he's not immune. Deal?
"The gauntlet blast was concussive - it was designed to blast a hole in whatever it touched. Doom was shielded and survived. it wasn't designed to disable his armor or bypass the shield. That's not the same as subverting the shield entirely and frying the electronics. It's a completely different type of attack."He survived coz his suit is the shit. It burned his cape off, so he wasn't shielded at that one point. He survived coz of his "basic" suit.
ok, even accepting that...Storm's attack isn't designed to destroy Doom. It's designed to disable his armor by frying the circuits. You can't compare the two types of attacks any more so than you can compare Galactus blasting Sue and failing to Songbird blasting Sue and succeeding.