Well, in this case, it doesn't matter...they're both bad guys, so there's no "bad guys lose" factor involved.
It seems the core points have been exausted in this debate, so let me throw a little point out:
Thanos is a high level matter manipulator, being in control of cosmic power. He exercises a high degree of control at the molecular level. He's used his power to heal people before, he's re-arranged matter to such a fine degree that he was able to instantly restore a house destroyed in a battle, he's terraformed rock and the environment using his own power and he's created breathable atmosphere for his IW colleagues.
Additionally, he's a powerful enough telepath to have labotomized a herald of Galactus and overwhelm Moondragon in the past. Considering that Poccy has a demonstrated weakness against both of those, and Thanos has both of those in abundance, you should probably take that into consideration for this fight.
Thanos is a lot more than Hulk with power blasts.
Addendum (for clarification):
The problem I have is with this whole "grant himself ANY power he chooses" and "unlimited strength".
Apocalypse can not grant himself any power, he can grant himself any PHYSICAL ABILITY. For instance, he can't turn his arm into the Infinity Gauntlet and wield it's power. He could mimic it's aesthetic design, but he doesn't have access to the energies the gems contain. He can't become Magneto and have psionic manipulation over the electro magnetic spectrum, but he can alter his body to metabolize kinetic and cosmic energy like Havok, Bishop, Living Monolith, or Sebastian Shaw, which a is physical trait.
its clear to me that the ppl voicing aganist apoc's physical self augmenting capabilties dont know much about him. or thanos too FTM. the thing is... just like illadelph has hinted countless times just like Havok, Living Monolith and even Atlas/Giant man. Apocalypse draws energy from an extra-dimensionary source,that is seeminlgy infinite. and he bends it to his will.
so long as he keeps drawing from this source his power could grow way beyond the current exponential levels they are now. so to put a rest to it somewhat, even tho its only gonna spark more foolish "if i never seen it it cant happen debating" he has control of his body down to an atomic level. therfore he can change into anything he feels like, and yes that includes adamantium or growing to the size of the earth, turning into a giant energy spewing weapon capable of destroying the earth, or becoming more dense than the desnest thing you can think of. Even tho it was his own self serving rantings apoc did say the the celestials power exceed all but his own(plus the fact that he has mastered celestial technolgy)..and i dont think that thanos under his OWN power is more powerful than a celestial
when you think about it apocalypse is basically a brash mixture of Cyborg Superman+Firestorm. but the changes he can achieve are limtied to his own body.so it all boils down to reverting back to everything illadelph said earlier about his abilites and them being true....but as far as this battles goes, i think it would end up the same way it did when thanos fought tyrant--draw(even tho thanos ran off b4 tyrant could go mideval on his ass)
One other thing I'd like to add in addition to my post above: Apocalypse has molecular control over his body, not atomic control. There's a world of difference between the two. He can control his density, by packing in his molecules, but he couldn't become as hard as adamantium. Adamantium isn't as strong as it is because of it's density. Look at it this way - 1 pound of steel vs. 100 pounds of tissue molecularly packed in for equal density. So sure, it's awfully solid, similarly so to steel. But it's still tissue...you can burn it. You can't burn steel.
So Apocalypse can try to approximate certain materials, but the fact that his self-control is limited to molecules limits exactly what he's able to do. I'd say only half the things on Ill's list are actually possible.
no smart guy i wasnt making that claim i was just saying what he said. that why i said tho it was his own self served rantings. anybody can say anything they want about themselves but that doesnt make it true. IMO if he came to that conclusion in the first place that means he must have measured his power aginst theirs to some extent. whether or not its factual is irrevelant so i really dont see the need to get insulting
Originally posted by demigawd
One other thing I'd like to add in addition to my post above: Apocalypse has molecular control over his body, not atomic control. There's a world of difference between the two.
actually there isnt. molecules are a bunch of atoms bonded together so if you control molecules youre controlling atoms. point taken tho. i concede that he probably couldnt replicate adamantium exaclty but he would come pretty close
No, controlling atoms give you the ability to control molecules, not the other way around. But given what you said afterwards, I think we're on the same page - Poccy wouldn't be able to turn into Adamantium or any other molecular/atomic compound. He could only control the molecules in his body, or draw upon more energy to supplement his molecules. So he could increase his density and size and all of that, but he won't be able to synthesize or absorb anything that his molecules aren't naturally able to do. Given that he's been laid out by optic blasts, that doesn't seem likely.
I don't know whether or not Ill has some specific scientific theory in mind, but I'd like to discuss it.
[And I said I'd stay out if this].
I see what you're saying demi, but I'm pretty sure it's psionic control of his atomic structure and not just his molecular structure given the fact he can transmute his being from flesh to metal and mechanical devices. If it were simply molecules that wouldn't be possible. If he were made of cotton he couldn't become as hard as steel by simply moving around his molecular structure. It's similar to Collossus' transformation. For reference, I offer this:
"Known Superhuman Powers: Apocalypse is a mutant who possesses superhuman strength which he can augment by psionically drawing on outside energy sources. Apocalypse can alter the atomic structure of his body at will in order to change his form. He can even increase his size by taking on additional mass from a presumably extra-dimensional source. Through his ability to alter his form, Apocalypse can give himself virtually any superhuman physical power.
Apocalypse has an extraordinarily long life span that has already lasted thousands of years. He can survive for weeks without food or water and can rapidly recover from injuries that would prove fatal to normal human beings. In the future, however, his physical form will eventually grow too aged and enfeebled to contain his vast superhuman energies. Hence, he will transfer his consciousness and powers into a succession of host bodies, abandoning each one when it too grows too old to contain his power."
Not from Marvel.com since, but accurate.
Apocalypse has always described his own power as being molecular control, not atomic control. That encylopedia reference is the only time I've heard of it being molecular.
It's also never been shown that he alters his form to metal specifically. He has a metallic appearance, but have you seen evidence that it's specifically metal? I'd always assumed that, like any other shapechanger, he just changes shape but everything is just his body, similar to Mystique turning into Wolverine complete with "metal" claws that aren't really metal.
Have you see something that revealed it be actual metal? Or where he referred to some part of his body as being a specific metal?
I think it's more a grammatical (and scientific) error on the part of the writers at Marvel. I guess I'll have to get scientific:
A molecule is a base element of a compound.
An atom is the base of an element, which make up compounds.
For instance, you don't have water atoms, you have water molecules, which consist of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom.
Apocalypse is made of flesh and bone, which are compounds. You can not re-arrange flesh into items such as energy canons, jet packs, rockets, drills, pistons, battering rams, or jet wings, just as you can not turn water into, well, flesh, without altering it's atomic structure, thereby transmuting it into another compound.
Originally posted by manjaroWell let's dissect what you said...
no smart guy i wasnt making that claim i was just saying what he said. that why i said tho it was his own self served rantings. anybody can say anything they want about themselves but that doesnt make it true. IMO if he came to that conclusion in the first place that means he must have measured his power aginst theirs to some extent. whether or not its factual is irrevelant so i really dont see the need to get insulting
Even tho it was his own self serving rantings apoc did say the the celestials power exceed all but his own(plus the fact that he has mastered celestial technolgy)
So he claimed it...and everybody likes to toot their own horn, which is fine...but then you said:
..and i dont think that thanos under his OWN power is more powerful than a celestial
And what's the purpose of this sentence...if not to imply that Apoc is indeed more powerful than a Celestial, since you're mentioning Thanos in a context that compares him to Apocalypse and Celestials.
And BTW, why is it 'foolish' to ask for proof? Are you one of those ultra right-wing conservatives who take everything at face value and don't question anything? Are we supposed to believe everything about Apocalypse...even though the extreme examples have never been displayed...just cause somebody wrote it in a bio? Even if the source is Marvel, writing, 'Apocalypse can give himself virtually any superhuman physical power', is simply another way of saying, 'this is a potential cash-cow character, and we're not entirely sure which direction he'll be going in yet, so we'll give him unlimited power for the time being until we can figure out what to do with him'.
Go ask Jim Starlin what he would think about Apocalypse vs. Thanos, and I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you where to go.
And if Apoc is so powerful and so dangerous...why is it that only the X-teams consider him to be a major threat? What other teams, besides the X-teams, bother to care when Apocalypse is wreaking havoc? On the other hand, when Thanos stirs up shit, EVERYBODY cares.
Apocalypse is made of flesh and bone, which are compounds. You can not re-arrange flesh into items such as energy canons, jet packs, rockets, drills, pistons, battering rams, or jet wings, just as you can not turn water into, well, flesh, without altering it's atomic structure, thereby transmuting it into another compound.
I don't believe his flesh and bone is what's being rearranged...it's his armour.
My own theory on how Poccy's power worked was that was able to draw on additional mass from the outside and pack those into his existing molecules. That increased density is what gives him the strength and extra durability that he has, but it's still just the same molecules. His energy projection and psionic-like power was part of the Celestial enhancement after finding Ship (since his only mutant power is molecular control). That energy projection is what facilitates powers such as energy canons, jet packs rockets, etc. All the other shapes, just as battering rams, pistons, etc. were just part of the regular shape-shifting gamut...I've seen Mystique do some of the same things (the difference being that she can't reinforce herself with additional "extra-dimensional" mass).
All of that can be done without actually transmuting your atomic structure.
(Just got back from my lunch break. [I'm at work.])
Ok.
I'll see if I can find a comic where it says Apocalypse changes into a metal, just to put you guys at ease.
Also, just so you guys know (or you may already know), density is an atomic trait, not a molecular trait.
You can't increase your density by packing more molecules together, you can only increase your mass (weight). You can't make water molecules more dense by adding more water molecules to them, just the mass, you would increase the density by packing the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in the compound more close together to make the compound more stable (in the case of water, by decreasing it's temperature and freezing it), thereby increasing it's density. You can't make skin harder by adding more skin. You can only make it thicker, but it won't increase it's density or change it's matter, just it's mass (thickness).
Also, to add, you can increase your weight without increasing your mass by increasing your density. That's why a 5'x 5' block of wood and 5' x 5' block of steel weigh different amounts, a difference in atomic density, not molecular mass.