My two cents...coming late on the debate is this:
Having Anakin die doesn't necessarily make that part of balancing the force, but then again it does...
Its sort of a Christian theme, really...or any religion. Testimony, what have you, needs to be sealed in blood and sacrifice. In one sense, after the Emporer is dead, the path of the Chosen One (delete "chosen" for Matrix fans) is complete...at the end of the path is death. Once Christ fulfilled his destiny..."It is finished" and he gave up the ghost...no more to be done in the physical world. But balance comes at the death of the Emperor.
If this is a pattern and how it must be, that death seals the word and works...then his path is not complete until death takes him, option 2 in this poll.
Casting religiosity aside for a moment, having VADER redeem HIMSELF may ultimately be what brings the Force into balance. Using his will to overcome evil may, in some way...actually destroy it. Palpatine's death then is more like taking care of loose threads.
This leads you to consider that balance may not be considered balance as we imagine it to be. Perhaps balance is a merging of light and dark, good and evil. This can be seen in the EU NJO with talk that no true light and dark side exist...just the Unifying Force...Perhaps the Force is a dynamic entity, needing the Chosen one...a savior, to help fulfill it's destiny.
Individually speaking: has anyone else gone to the Dark Side and returned? Perhaps if there is and always was a single "unified" Force, the balance is within individuals. Individuals determine themselves are either good or evil. Anakin embodies both, and the struggle to be good or evil is the balance...Anakin has to face his evil and overcome it in order to truly be a whole person.
So you see, the question of Balance and the Force, and the role of the Chosen One, may actually be more complicated.
HOWEVER...the great and powerful flanneled one, believes it is when the Emperor dies.
That being said...JP wins the debate.
As an EU sideline...Vader clings to life through the power of the Dark Side...he cannot sustain his life with the force otherwise...Perhaps because Anakin is truely dead? Doesn't make sense because it is clearly ANAKIN who is unmasked...I really don't think George thought the whole Hayden ROTJ thing through...
And also having all Sith eradicated doesn't bring balance...for balance, good and evil must coexist. Therefore, I choose the Unified Force theory.
BTW...I love it when chicks fight....visuals...oooooooohhhhhhhh
@JP: The part where Luke "uses" the dark side is when he lets in to his anger and repeatedly strikes Vader on the DS, eventually taking his hand.
I think it obvious that both of them needed to die. When Vader returned to the light side in choosing to save Luke and kill Palpatine that is what killed him (I believe that this is straight from GL's mouth). In order to kill Palps he had to die. Palps can only see the dark side, he couldn't see Vader's change. If Vader ever decided to try and topple Palps without switching to the light Palps would see it coming and kick his ass.
Well, first of all, I agree that Anakin's redemption hardly purges his soul; he is still a mass murderer and I think Yoda's line that 'Forever will it dominate your destiny' should be read literally. There is no real way back for someone who has become as unbalanced and evil as someone like Anakin- he might have saved his 'soul', as it were, but he cannot undo what he is. I believe his death is an integral part of any process of redemption for him.
As for the main question... GL makes it clear that Balance is restored when Vader kills Sidious, that much is certain. Whether he means this in the context of him SACRIFICING himself to kill Sidious... is certainly up for debate, as we see.
My personal belief is to sidestep it by thinking that he could not have killed Sidious without such sacrifice, and so there could be no question of Sidious dying but the Sith sitll being there. And it is Sidious' death that is the big moment; Balance, I believe, is restored at that point- Sidious dead and Vader doomed.
Originally posted by Uber_God
no sith just jedi isnt really a good balance
That's because its not a balance at all....you need opposition in all things.
Another thing that is interesting is that the Jedi order had become stagnant...they became stuck in an old way of thinking allowing the Sith to come to power. The fact that the Jedi were not aware of Palpatine is something that shouldn't be..."The shroud of the Dark Side..."
Obviously the Dark Side has eclipsed the light...
This is where Lucas is coming from, but I never understood how NO sith is a balance either...
I could continue...but I burnt myself out last night.
Ultimately, I think there are too many holes in the story and even more in the philosophy. Lucas didn't give it as much thought as the Wachowski's did...
Well I have to agree with the whole 'there is no balance without some evil' debate. Balance is just that, BALANCE. Meaning both ends are equal, like a seesaw as it were. Its not until both sides have equal weight that the seesaw will be completely horizontal.
However, this is GL's universe. And if he said that balance is restored when Sids dies I will defer to him..
This vote really isnt accurate, mainly because when Palpitine dies Vader is already dead Darth Vader is only the Evel side of Anakin when Anakin kills Palpitine there is no Vader hes already dead, Anakin was the chosen one the Jedi Council just couldnt see HOW he was going to bring back balance to the force, Anakin kills Palpi reviving balance to the force there for he was the chosen one, Luke was mainly just the antagonist to the Evel, thats why the twins are so important, they are they only thing that can put humanity back into Vader, makeing him disappear, and letting Anakin fulfill the prophicy.
This is the main reason why when luke says "ive got to save you" and Anakin says "you already have" meaning luke saved his better half. 🙂
Originally posted by Darth Plagueis
Having just read this entire thread, has it not occurred to anyone that the amount of time between the emperors death and Vaders is like MAYBE ten minutes. Although I can see both points, it's kind of like arguing wether or not the force was balanced at 2:00 or 2:15....
Yes indeedy and thats the point. I wanted to know when it was. And by Vader I meant the guy in the suit EHmaster call him what you will.
Anyone ever saw episode 6 ? , it's about Anakins return to the light , his moment where he understands his wrong doings and brings balance to the force , it doesntm atter that he died , he confessed to Luke he was right about him and that he should tell his sister , Vader was gone and ANakin returned , Anakins love for his son redeemed him , and he finally accepted the fact that all things pass out , from plants on the ground to the stars high in the sky 🙂