Well your comparing apples and oranges...
A fleet in SW is MASSIVE capital ships that slowly float along and bombard other capital ships with their weapons... Imagine two air craft carriers going at it...
In ST you have fairly nimble (compaired to the SW capital ships) ships engaging in close proximity combat zipping in and out of eachother... So the captains are not only concerned with maintaining a coordinated attack with their fellow fleet ships but they are manuvering their ships at high speeds in and out of combat... Imagine a bunch of speedboats zipping around those aircraft carriers...
Yeah the fleet ships in SW are more powerful... duuhh... they are massivly more large than the ST ships. But thats SW...
To answer your question though... yeah ST has fleets... they do not really show until the later seasons of DS9... Usually consisting of 800 to 900 ships.
Originally posted by TRSundown
In previous debates there was many mentions that Warp 10 was pretty much the same as Hyperdrive since the Warp speed ratio is exponential. Also that Trans Warpdrive is comparable as well.In "All Good Things" they were moving at Warp 13... Just curious as to how that compairs to Hyperdrive... Im not a great mathmetician so I am not going to bother to attempt the calculations. Just throwing it out as food for thought.
If you ignore the idea that Warp 10 is "being in all places at once", Warp 13 would be about 4700c which is still nothing compared to Hyperdrive technology.
ST weapons have also been hamered as being inferior to Turbo Lasers... Well I would like to throw in the Phaser Canon. My info is based purly on observation so I really dont know power comparisons. The paser cannon in "All Good Things" in a SINGLE blast pierces the shields of a Klingon battlecruiser and continues through the superstructure of the hull and out the other side... Thats pretty impressive compared to the phasers we see in the every day TV shows.
That would be the effect of a turbolaser shot since that will immediatly pierce any ST shield - with the except that will detonate the entire ship or vaporize it instead of going through it. And SW ships can take fire from weapons like that for ages...
Well your comparing apples and oranges...A fleet in SW is MASSIVE capital ships that slowly float along and bombard other capital ships with their weapons... Imagine two air craft carriers going at it...
In ST you have fairly nimble (compaired to the SW capital ships) ships engaging in close proximity combat zipping in and out of eachother... So the captains are not only concerned with maintaining a coordinated attack with their fellow fleet ships but they are manuvering their ships at high speeds in and out of combat... Imagine a bunch of speedboats zipping around those aircraft carriers...
Yeah the fleet ships in SW are more powerful... duuhh... they are massivly more large than the ST ships. But thats SW...
To answer your question though... yeah ST has fleets... they do not really show until the later seasons of DS9... Usually consisting of 800 to 900 ships.
And again...just for you. Stardestroyers were able to hit ships much smaller and faster than ST ships (the Millenium Falcon) and considering the energy output of SW weapons and the amount of energy ST shields can absorb 1 or 2 hits of a Stardestroyer would bring down an ST ship (first overloading / piercing the shield, second will destroy the ship). The only one that compares apples to oranges here is you.
A single (!) Stardestroyer would be enough to destroy entire SW fleets and the Empire owns more than 25,000 of this. And this is not even talking about other shiptypes and all the other military forces in the SW universe. ST would get owned. Badly. Period.
Nobody has ever given a counter to the time travel from ST, so I decided to bring it up again. I think that without the time travel, which they use quite often, ST and SW would be more even. With time travel SW is doomed because time travel is such an unfair advantage. Without it, ST would give SW a good beating, but would probably be wiped out of existence while SW would eventually recover.
Originally posted by DarkLord_981
Nobody has ever given a counter to the time travel from ST, so I decided to bring it up again. I think that without the time travel, which they use quite often, ST and SW would be more even. With time travel SW is doomed because time travel is such an unfair advantage. Without it, ST would give SW a good beating, but would probably be wiped out of existence while SW would eventually recover.
Actually, I countered time travel pages ago. Time travel in ST creates alternate universes or at least merges into them. The very fact that at one point the Enterprise existed in a time when it would have been destroyed illustrates this well: if it were just one time zone, nothing could ever be altered and even the idea of going back in time would just be to facillitate the future as it was Also, there was the episode where several ST universes came together at once. So time travel would NOT benefit all of ST in this match, especially since all of ST wouldn't be able to just leap into time, and assuming that they all did, it would be a separate universe. That's an effective self-ring-out.
And without time travel (Which isn't feasible anyways), ST would be destroyed. At tops, ST has had combined fleets of Federation and allies perhaps numbering in the high hundreds to a few thousand. Just Imperial Star Destroyers number in the range of 25,000 +, but it would only take a handful to effective dominate Federation space without so much as a messy loss of battle. Likewise, SW has been using hyperspace travel and space ships for thousands of years, while ST has barely had a few centuries. If we take this thread to include ALL forces from past to current, SW just overwhelms them was billions of ships. ST has absolutely nothing to compare to this, and when it comes to actual land troops, the CIS or even the small Grand Army of the Republic (Numbering at a measely three mil.) can curbstomp just about any and all ST land forces.
Originally posted by Wesker
Actually, I countered time travel pages ago. Time travel in ST creates alternate universes or at least merges into them. The very fact that at one point the Enterprise existed in a time when it would have been destroyed illustrates this well: if it were just one time zone, nothing could ever be altered and even the idea of going back in time would just be to facillitate the future as it was Also, there was the episode where several ST universes came together at once. So time travel would NOT benefit all of ST in this match, especially since all of ST wouldn't be able to just leap into time, and assuming that they all did, it would be a separate universe. That's an effective self-ring-out.
Here, let's be fair about this. Time Travel the way you're thinking about it would indeed be a danger, but it's not absolute. First contact illustrates the point. The Borg probably thought that by going back in time they could do exactly what you are suggesting (which is wierd since I thought they actually wanted to assimilate the tech), but they were defeated. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that SW could do something similar... that is follow whatever time travel team back and prevent them from wreaking their havoc.
On a side note, Offensively used time travel might have been possible in the SW universe but never used. Kind of like nukes, Or Balefire from the wheel of time. Just too many problems to deal with to justify the use. I know there's no evidence for this, but hey just throwing out ideas. Who knows what could have been invented and discarded during a couple dozen milenia of history.
I don't know much about ST time travel, but I know that without it SW would pwn them. We outnumber them a thousand to one. We have the Death Star, Sun Crusher, Star Forge, Death Star 2, Darksaber. If I am missing anything let me know. We also have many, many, many powerful force users. Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Ludo Kresh, Ajunta Pall, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, Naga Sadow, Luke Skywalker (DN), Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade Skywalker, Kyp Durron, etc. SW would have billions of Jedi and Sith at their disposal. We also have massive armies, I will not name all of them, or all of the warrior species we have, only a few armies. Empire, Rebellion, Republic, Sepratist, Yuuzhan Vong, Mandalorians, Sith fleet (KOTOR), You guys seem smart figure out the rest. Or you can admit that these armies would pwn ST.
Originally posted by docb77
Here, let's be fair about this. Time Travel the way you're thinking about it would indeed be a danger, but it's not absolute.
First contact illustrates the point. The Borg probably thought that by going back in time they could do exactly what you are suggesting
Yeah, Earth and probably the entire sector was pretty lucky that the Enterprise was in the wake to be protected.
(which is wierd since I thought they actually wanted to assimilate the tech)
It's weird. First they wanted the tech. Then they wanted your body too. Then it became a weird vendetta thing. I still think the borg are a pretty cool concept but I really liked them better before they had "personality".