Classic Debate: If a tree falls in the woods...

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
If something happens that doesn't affect us in some way it doesn't concern us.

You are partially correct!! Curiousity are still to be found in some humans...

hmm, yes I agree... but to what extent?

and still, aren't we only curious about things that concern us?

not in a sense... We can still be curious at spiderman's episode 3, couldn't we?

yes, because it affects us... it will possibly bring us enjoyment and so we are curious about it

hmm.. so you are saying that curiousity is in the branch of "affecting us"? ok... I get you...

Originally posted by buttafly
...and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I've debated this with my friend and because her favourite subject is SCIENCE, she argues that sounds still exists even though no one else can hear it. What are you thoughts on this??

I think that sound always exists because it is vibrations. And also, in the woods, there is always SOMETHING there to hear it, whether its a badger, some squirrels or lice, SOMETHING will hear it!

((i think Terry Pratchett commented on this in one of his books - can't remember which - but he basically said the same as me))

OMG Like such a dumb-ass tree would so like fall in a like forrest in the first place, like ya! anyway, it is so like stupid and that cos I really like the rainforest and stuff cos you get like animals and stuff, and you get like Winny the Pooh and like stuff and he is so like totally ya! and stuff, so I got to get one and stuff, and now I like only eat like non Dairy cos it is so like healthy and stuff and the ozone hole like totally ya! and I so don't want to sound like a spoff now so anyway, like totally stupid tree!

Originally posted by Phoenix
I think that sound always exists because it is vibrations. And also, in the woods, there is always SOMETHING there to hear it, whether its a badger, some squirrels or lice, SOMETHING will hear it!

((i think Terry Pratchett commented on this in one of his books - can't remember which - but he basically said the same as me))

No, sound is an interpretation of vibrations in the air. If there is nothing to interpret these vibrations as sound, then it is not sound.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No, sound is an interpretation of vibrations in the air. If there is nothing to interpret these vibrations as sound, then it is not sound.

I heard it 😮‍💨

First off, I don't know why people keep trying to answer this question, as someone already said, the question is rhetorical. It's meant to make you think, not meant to be answered.

Second, this questions is being asked in a philosophy forum, not a science forum. Whether or not a tree falling with no one around literally makes a sound or not is irrelevant. I think it's a question designed to make you think about human perception. As someone already said, humans tend to operate on out of sight out of mind. If they don't know about it, it doesn't exist.

Let's use an example near and dear to my heart to illustrate my point. Until Columbus "discovered" America it didn't exist to many people. Maps were drawn without it, the world was assumed flat etc. That doesn't mean it didn't exist. It did exist literally. It was there, there were people living on it. It existed. But, in the minds of most of the world, it did not. In their minds, there was no America.

So, I think what leonheart and others were trying to say is that while something may exist in the literal sense, if you don't perceive it, it doesn't exist in your mind. Did that make any sense to anyone but me? 😬

The question should be 'if a tree falls in a forest with nobody around, does it fall, or even exist at all?'

You are assuming that the tree existed even though nobody observed it. So if it existed and fell in a forest, it would have made a noise.
If nobody was around to observe it, it didnt exist at all, and therefore cannot have fallen.

Originally posted by ms_erupt
First off, I don't know why people keep trying to answer this question, as someone already said, the question is rhetorical. It's meant to make you think, not meant to be answered.

Second, this questions is being asked in a [b]philosophy forum, not a science forum. Whether or not a tree falling with no one around literally makes a sound or not is irrelevant. I think it's a question designed to make you think about human perception. As someone already said, humans tend to operate on out of sight out of mind. If they don't know about it, it doesn't exist.

Let's use an example near and dear to my heart to illustrate my point. Until Columbus "discovered" America it didn't exist to many people. Maps were drawn without it, the world was assumed flat etc. That doesn't mean it didn't exist. It did exist literally. It was there, there were people living on it. It existed. But, in the minds of most of the world, it did not. In their minds, there was no America.

So, I think what leonheart and others were trying to say is that while something may exist in the literal sense, if you don't perceive it, it doesn't exist in your mind. Did that make any sense to anyone but me? 😬 [/B]

I kinda get it... it's really clever, but I'm a very literal person... I say, if the tree is there, its there. I'm not that great at philosophising, I think it's interesting, but after a while I start thinking that I want to go off and do something useful! 😄

Originally posted by ms_erupt
Did that make any sense to anyone but me? 😬

Originally posted by peterKSL
"Things do exist". However for humans to know it, they have to use their 5 senses, to imput it into their brains... If a tree falls, no humans around, therefore humans interpret the event to the proof they know, which is the tree never existed. For animals however, which saw it, knows that the tree exist, because they have all the proof they need.

It's just the same as where london doesn't exist, for those who never been there or heard of it?

🙄
I made that statement long before you 😛

OK...since we are still talking about the tree thing..It really depends if it's a pine tree.

Originally posted by peterKSL
🙄
I made that statement long before you 😛

i think it would make a sound but no one would here it so therefore it wouldent make a sound!

A sound is a detected vibration of the air. A sound is defined by being detected. A sound that is unrecorded, undetected, cannot be known (it is not a sound, by our definition).

i just got this quote off another philosophy related website. It got me thinking - if you placed a tape recorder in the forest, and left it so it was recording at the time the tree fell, would you expect to hear a sound when you played it back later? Personally I would, which gives me the answer to the original question.

However, if a sound is defined by its detection, then does the tree falling over only make a sound when the tape is played back - potentially some time after the event?

I think i just confused the hell out of myself.

😕

OK...if we say that the tree fell only if you hear it or record the sound or vibration, then what else is happening when we are not aware?

well in that logic, then your wife cheating on you never happend because you never caught her

Originally posted by argen angel
well in that logic, then your wife cheating on you never happend because you never caught her

Cheating is characterized by being unfaithful to a spouse or lover. There is no relationship between the awareness of cheating and whether or not it is.

Sound however, is a perception of vibrations in the air. Therefore, if there is nothing to perceive these vibrations as sound, then it is not sound.