Originally posted by Juntai
Kind of funny comment when most of the last 57 pages have entailed Marvel fans trying to convince us that Surfer could solo the entire JLA, huh?
Surfer cant' solo one of the GL"s with a majority win. He takes half out of ten. Two Gl's cleans his clock 10/10. No others are even needed to mess with surfer, but i'm betting MM would stick it to him good too. Tho he might be able to do some dmg to MM as well.
Originally posted by marvelprince
JUst cause someone has more powers doesn't make them better. If that were the cause then GL would be taking on all these guys himself
Surfer not only has more powers than Superman and flash, he has more raw power. Tho supers and flash both use thier signature powers waaaaaaay better than surfer uses those same powers. Supers can outpunch and outmaneuver surfer in hand to hand anyday. flash can do things with speed no one else in comics is doing. But as a whole, surfer is more powerful than either of them in terms of area of effect. what he can do. in terms of combat dmg, all of them are pretty high up there. surfer just has more things he can do. it's like Strorm and Wonder Woman. Storm has Vast Area of effect powers. More so than WW. tho WW could do mass dmg, it would take her more time becuz of aoe's. But in combat dmg, WW faaaar exceeds storm. In the case with surfer, he has both aoe's and Combat dmg. makes him very dangerous
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirlJuntai and Validus might have a point about Surfer vs the JLA, but to say that a single GL is the equal of a post-powerup Surfer seems a bit biased and completely ignores the way Surfer is currently being depicted. It isn't fan opinion; it is simply the way Surfer is being shown in Annihilation.
Surfer cant' solo one of the GL"s with a majority win. He takes half out of ten. Two Gl's cleans his clock 10/10. No other are even needed to mess with surfer, but i'm betting MM would stick it to him good too. Tho he might be able to do some dmg to MM as well.
Still not saying Thor and Surfer win against the JLA, but the current has the power to beat a GL easily, and might even be able to take two of the best.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
Help me understand, Validus. That sure sounds like you are limiting Surfer to low-mid showings while the GLs bring their best.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
Help me understand, Validus. That sure sounds like you are limiting Surfer to low-mid showings while the GLs bring their best.
IF we are going to be fair, an awesome showing by Thor or Silver Surfer is matched,not exceeded, by a GL. So to be fair, One GL can stalemate Surfer,and One Gl can Stalemate Thor. Thier rings can literally do anything. They can mimmick Thor or surfers powers and do other stuff I haven't seen Thor or surfer do. But becuase Thor is a beast and Surfer is so powerful, I say the Gl's are thier equals, not thier betters. Which means you have Superman, WW, and MM, all of whom are Thor class, left to Lend a helping fist or mind blast or lasso where ever they need to. Flash is over kill. flash probably could take thor as I think flash can beat everyone in the jla but the Gl's. Dont' think flash can beat surfer, but he certainly won't need to with two gl's.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
IF we are going to be fair, an awesome showing by Thor or Silver Surfer is matched,not exceeded, by a GL. So to be fair, One GL can stalemate Surfer,and One Gl can Stalemate Thor. Thier rings can literally do anything. They can mimmick Thor or surfers powers and do other stuff I haven't seen Thor or surfer do. But becuase Thor is a beast and Surfer is so powerful, I say the Gl's are thier equals, not thier betters. Which means you have Superman, WW, and MM, all of whom are Thor class, left to Lend a helping fist or mind blast or lasso where ever they need to. Flash is over kill. flash probably could take thor as I think flash can beat everyone in the jla but the Gl's. Dont' think flash can beat surfer, but he certainly won't need to with two gl's.
Originally posted by ValidusI think we're just going to have to disagree on that, for as powerful as the ring makes Hal and Kyle on the outside, their insides, minds, and emotions are still fundamentally human. Thus, they are subject to (along with feats that may match Surfer's) ludicrously low showings. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a Surfer showing lower than Kyle getting pwned by Deathstroke and Deadshot during Identity Crisis.
No, I'm saying that put both at their best and Surfer still goes down the majority of fights. Surfer's best feats, Annihilation or otherwise, don't trump Hal and Kyle's best.
And suppose Surfer is at his best: can you give me an argument why he couldn't analyze and manipulate Oan energy as he has done with the Odinpower? Have Hal or Kyle easily manipulated mystical energies the like of Shazam and such?
Again, my most recent argument is not that Surfer can beat the JLA, but that he was the equal or better of a high-end GL before his powerup, and is easily the superior of a single (possibly two) GL now.
Originally posted by Validus
Exactly what I'm saying. Using top showings of everyone involved and Thor and Surfer are matched by two people here alone. Superman, Wonder Woman, J'onn and Flash at their absolute best aren't ones to be taken lightly at all either. Superman has beaten damn near everyone of note. Wonder Woman has taken down legit Gods with one strike of her tiara. J'onn is almost physically unbeatable and Flash is, well, The Flash.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
I think we're just going to have to disagree on that, for as powerful as the ring makes Hal and Kyle on the outside, their insides, minds, and emotions are still fundamentally human. Thus, they are subject to (along with feats that may match Surfer's) ludicrously low showings. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a Surfer showing lower than Kyle getting pwned by Deathstroke and Deadshot during Identity Crisis.And suppose Surfer is at his best: can you give me an argument why he couldn't analyze and manipulate Oan energy as he has done with the Odinpower? Have Hal or Kyle easily manipulated mystical energies the like of Shazam and such?
Again, my most recent argument is not that Surfer can beat the JLA, but that he was the equal or better of a high-end GL before his powerup, and is easily the superior of a single (possibly two) GL now.
He still isn't superior to any Gl. Imagine Jonn boosting the will of hall jordon or kyle by a factor of 10 or a 100. Or the Gaurdians picking some new gl who is like a freaking telepath or zen master or something. Thier wills would be indominable.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
I think we're just going to have to disagree on that, for as powerful as the ring makes Hal and Kyle on the outside, their insides, minds, and emotions are still fundamentally human. Thus, they are subject to (along with feats that may match Surfer's) ludicrously low showings. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a Surfer showing lower than Kyle getting pwned by Deathstroke and Deadshot during Identity Crisis.
Kyle and Hal are only as human as they wish to be. Kyle has manipulated his genetic make up to turn himself into a legit super being before. Hal has done similar.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
And suppose Surfer is at his best: can you give me an argument why he couldn't analyze and manipulate Oan energy as he has done with the Odinpower? Have Hal or Kyle easily manipulated mystical energies the like of Shazam and such?
Why can't Hal and Kyle analyze and manipulate the power cosmic? The argument for one sucking up the others energy goes both ways. Everyone mentions that Surfer absorbed Kyle's energy in the crossover yet they fail to mention this was after Kyle absorbed Thanos AND Parallax's energy and then GAVE it to Surfer. He couldn't take the energy from Kyle until Kyle actually gave it to him.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
Again, my most recent argument is not that Surfer can beat the JLA, but that he was the equal or better of a high-end GL before his powerup, and is easily the superior of a single (possibly two) GL now.
Originally posted by ValidusAh! That sheds quite a bit of light on things! So in your opinions here in this particular fight regarding DC characters, are based on high-end showings only, while disregarding all low showings?
Exactly what I'm saying. Using top showings of everyone involved and Thor and Surfer are matched by two people here alone. Superman, Wonder Woman, J'onn and Flash at their absolute best aren't ones to be taken lightly at all either. Superman has beaten damn near everyone of note. Wonder Woman has taken down legit Gods with one strike of her tiara. J'onn is almost physically unbeatable and Flash is, well, The Flash.
Essentially, you have taken away the weaknesses of all the characters involved, am I right?
But back to the GL argument, if Surfer = GL before Annihilation, shouldn't Surfer at the very least be greater than a GL after the powerup?
And, uh, about Karnak? Not only does he have a high degree of superhuman strength, but he can detect the fracture planes of any being. That's hardly on par with what happened to poor Kyle during IdC.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirlSuperman was meant to be thier champion.
He still isn't superior to any Gl. Imagine Jonn boosting the will of hall jordon or kyle by a factor of 10 or a 100. Or the Gaurdians picking some new gl who is like a freaking telepath or zen master or something. Thier wills would be indominable.
Hal was their answer to giving up on having Superman as the leader of their corp.
Yes, that was a Pre-COIE [as if that really matters anymore, IC showed us most of that era stands as continuity anyways.. And even moved several elsewords into the multiverse. lol.] -- but it has been mentioned numerous times since then in Post-COIE comics. Grand Morrison's JLA run hinted towards it a few times alone.
Supes would be pretty undefeatable with a GL ring.