Originally posted by demigawd
He won't be able to throw Magneto anywhere thanks to the auto-shield, which Superman will be unable to penetrate. So that throws out your whole strategy. Magneto has all the time in the world to do whatever he wants to do because Superman won't be getting through.
I think you are misunderstanding. He's frozen, shield and all inside a glacier. I'll even give the benefit of the doubt that the inside of the shield isnt frozen (because it doesnt make a difference) Like a charms blowpop with gum inside. This happens before Mags can even think.
Glacier grabbed and tossed, with Mags inside it.
My strategy is fine. It's yours that is flawed..and there are more than one, not just by myself, but others as well.
Mags can't keep up, nor does he have the endurance. Period.
No way his shield is going to hold up to multiple mountain, or moon busting punches. Not one, but many many in an awesome speed blitz as Mags has never seen before.
The way the shield works is that it adds or removes an electron from anything that comes in contact with it, then generates a like charge, instantly repelling it. As soon as Superman makes contact, he'd be repelled. And unless Superman develops energy-grabbing abilities a la Hulk, Superman won't be pushing anything.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I think you are misunderstanding. He's frozen, shield and all inside a glacier. I'll even give the benefit of the doubt that the inside of the shield isnt frozen (because it doesnt make a difference) Like a charms blowpop with gum inside. This happens before Mags can even think.
Glacier grabbed and tossed, with Mags inside it.My strategy is fine. It's yours that is flawed..and there are more than one, not just by myself, but others as well.
Mags can't keep up, nor does he have the endurance. Period.No way his shield is going to hold up to multiple mountain, or moon busting punches. Not one, but many many in an awesome speed blitz as Mags has never seen before.
Frozen from what? The shield blocks and repels anything....including cold air. Space worthiness, remember?
Like I said, Superman can't penetrate the forcefield, and by the time he generates enough force to do real damage, Magneto would have already de-powered him.
Originally posted by demigawd
The way the shield works is that it adds or removes an electron from anything that comes in contact with it, then generates a like charge, instantly repelling it. As soon as Superman makes contact, he'd be repelled. And unless Superman develops energy-grabbing abilities a la Hulk, Superman won't be pushing anything.
hmmm . . .
i'd pile on more, but i know nothing of current mags. too bad. 🙁
it's all right though -- av looks more than willing to take you on!! 😛
Originally posted by demigawd
Frozen from what? The shield blocks and repels anything....including cold air. Space worthiness, remember?Like I said, Superman can't penetrate the forcefield, and by the time he generates enough force to do real damage, Magneto would have already de-powered him.
Like I said, he cant and wont withstand multiple mountain shattering punches. We both know that.
The inside of the field (given benefit of the doubt) may have a self controlled environment, but please, don't tell me that a couple of miles tall plus wide glacier can't be easily formed around Mags by a character that froze a planet easily with his breath.
Space worthiness has nothing to do with it. He can sustain an environment for a while within his field. He can't create environments of his own.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Like I said, he cant and wont withstand multiple mountain shattering punches. We both know that.The inside of the field (given benefit of the doubt) may have a self controlled environment, but please, don't tell me that a couple of miles tall plus wide glacier can't be easily formed around Mags by a character that froze a planet easily with his breath.
Space worthiness has nothing to do with it. He can sustain an environment for a while within his field. He can't create environments of his own.
Why wouldn't Magneto be able to withstand multiple mountain shattering punches? He's not a mountain. Even without his forcefield, he took a shot clean to the face by a CL100 character and was fine. Add in his body armor (which he adds magnetic cohesiveness to to make it as molecularly dense as Adamantium) and his forcefield, able to withstand attacks by people FAR more powerful than Superman, and I can't see Superman breaking through the forcefield AND Magneto's regular armor in the amount of time it takes for Magneto to form a single thought. That's just not happening. And one thought is all it'll take.
What's a two mile glacier going to do? Magneto controls electricity. Electrcity as in electrolysis. Electrolysis as in turning ice into its component molecules. Bad strategy.
Originally posted by demigawd
Why wouldn't Magneto be able to withstand multiple mountain shattering punches? He's not a mountain. Even without his forcefield, he took a shot clean to the face by a CL100 character and was fine. Add in his body armor (which he adds magnetic cohesiveness to to make it as molecularly dense as Adamantium) and his forcefield, able to withstand attacks by people FAR more powerful than Superman, and I can't see Superman breaking through the forcefield AND Magneto's regular armor in the amount of time it takes for Magneto to form a single thought. That's just not happening. And one thought is all it'll take.What's a two mile glacier going to do? Magneto controls electricity. Electrcity as in electrolysis. Electrolysis as in turning ice into its component molecules. Bad strategy.
So he's turning the glacier into water at lightspeed?
Glaciers are notoriously difficult to melt, he'll be past venus by that time.
The strategy is fine, and easily effective. I'm not the one trying to turn mags into SS.
So how many Superman powered blows has Mags withstood at lightspeed before in 1 sitting? Remember, this is superman not holding back either.
3rd, I see you totally left out the whole phantom zone is a second thing.
There isnt a way for Mags to counter that either.
Mags has nothing to counter light speed. Period.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
So he's turning the glacier into water at lightspeed?
Glaciers are notoriously difficult to melt, he'll be past venus by that time.
The strategy is fine, and easily effective. I'm not the one trying to turn mags into SS.So how many Superman powered blows has Mags withstood at lightspeed before in 1 sitting? Remember, this is superman not holding back either.
3rd, I see you totally left out the whole phantom zone is a second thing.
There isnt a way for Mags to counter that either.Mags has nothing to counter light speed. Period.
I'm ignoring the whole Phantom Zone thing because since when we were allowed to bring in outside devices?
When has Superman EVER put someone in a glacier and sent them out to space in less time than it takes to form a thought? I can name times Magneto has drained energy and controlled sunlight and light sources. That's like me saying that Magneto could just open up a wormhole into a red sun and destroy Superman on contact. There, see?
Remember, the forcefield repels anything on contact. Superman isn't encasing Magneto in ice - the ice would be repelled the moment it touched the shield. Because it's automatic, Magneto doesn't need conscious control over that. Superman will be shipping an empty pile of ice into space.
It likewise doesn't matter how many times Superman hits Magneto's forcefield at lightspeed. The nature of the way it functions repels any force directed at it. You're confusing it with some kind of breakable wall...it's not...it's energy.
Superman doesn't have what it takes to get through the forcefield, lightspeed or not. Magneto has every tool at his disposal to turn Superman into a mere human. Period.
Originally posted by demigawd
I'm ignoring the whole Phantom Zone thing because since when we were allowed to bring in outside devices?When has Superman EVER put someone in a glacier and sent them out to space in less time than it takes to form a thought? I can name times Magneto has drained energy and controlled sunlight and light sources. That's like me saying that Magneto could just open up a wormhole into a red sun and destroy Superman on contact. There, see?
Remember, the forcefield repels anything on contact. Superman isn't encasing Magneto in ice - the ice would be repelled the moment it touched the shield. Because it's automatic, Magneto doesn't need conscious control over that. Superman will be shipping an empty pile of ice into space.
It likewise doesn't matter how many times Superman hits Magneto's forcefield at lightspeed. The nature of the way it functions repels any force directed at it. You're confusing it with some kind of breakable wall...it's not...it's energy.
Superman doesn't have what it takes to get through the forcefield, lightspeed or not. Magneto has every tool at his disposal to turn Superman into a mere human. Period.
How many times have we seen Mags bake a cake? Does that mean he can't do it? Supes froze the inside of a planet quickly and easily. A planet. Mags wouldnt even be an issue to be encased in ice, forcefield and all.
The outside devices is just a speed thing. Supes moves that fast, its not out of his power range, and I can easily bring scans to prove my claims.
You wants speed? Supes beat a full city full of villains quickly.
Supes can fly through moons, wrestle angels, and pull himself out of black holes and you are telling me he isn't strong or fast enough to break Mags shield? A few punches faster than Mags can think and he's out for the count.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
How many times have we seen Mags bake a cake? Does that mean he can't do it? Supes froze the inside of a planet quickly and easily. A planet. Mags wouldnt even be an issue to be encased in ice, forcefield and all.The outside devices is just a speed thing. Supes moves that fast, its not out of his power range, and I can easily bring scans to prove my claims.
You wants speed? Supes beat a full city full of villains quickly.
Supes can fly through moons, wrestle angels, and pull himself out of black holes and you are telling me he isn't strong or fast enough to break Mags shield? A few punches faster than Mags can think and he's out for the count.
There's a big difference between baking a cake and doing extremely complex feats in battle situations. And we don't know if Magneto can bake a cake or if he'll botch it. Ditto with Superman.
And you missed or ignored my point Magneto isn't a planet - a planet is rocky. Magneto's forcefield is energy. You can't encase energy in ice, repelled as quickly as it makes contact. sorry, won't work.
Superman, on the other hand, has NO defense against his energy being drained, no matter where on earth he is.
So Superman will spend all his time trying to break a forcefield made out of energy that affects Superman at a molecular level, and at the one milisescond mark, Magneto de-powers Superman, opens up a wormhole into the nearest red sun and that's that for Superman.
Originally posted by demigawdEvery time that has happened Superman was not actually fighitng his opponent. Mags won't have the luxury of draining Supes. It's a whole different ball game when he is actually fighting. That's why he never has been truly defeated by this method.Superman, on the other hand, has NO defense against his energy being drained, no matter where on earth he is.
You make it sound like Magneto is Norrin Radd or something.
You have him making wormholes, red-sunlight, draining Supes, basically shutting the Sun off(that's a good one) and tossing skycrapers at him all at the same time even with his shield up.
Mags is a good villain but the only way he beats Supes is if Supes just stands there and lets Mags do his thing.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Every time that has happened Superman was not actually fighitng his opponent. Mags won't have the luxury of draining Supes. It's a whole different ball game when he is actually fighting. That's why he never has been truly defeated by this method.You make it sound like Magneto is Norrin Radd or something.
You have him making wormholes, red-sunlight, draining Supes, basically shutting the Sun off(that's a good one) and tossing skycrapers at him all at the same time even with his shield up.
Mags is a good villain but the only way he beats Supes is if Supes just stands there and lets Mags do his thing.
Marvel itself has stated that Magneto, while not quite at the Surfer's level, has effectively limitless power. He can do many of the things Surfer can do, it'll just take him longer and require more effort. Surfer could effortlessly beat five Supermans at once. Magneto would have to exert himself to beat one, but make no mistake....he can do it.
To respond to your point about Superman never truly being defeated by it - you have to remember the cirumstances. Polaris was beating himself up at the same time. Ruin is just an old dude. Coldcast actually was effective in knocking out Superman. Most of them lack the ability to simultaneously drain Superman and prevent him from regaining that energy. Magneto is unique in those regards. and that's the difference maker in this fight.
You may take issue with how Magneto is written, because you prefer to see him as a guy who controls metal, but you have to recognize that these aren't theoretical powers that I'm making up based on what he should be able to do...I'm talking about things he's specifically shown at some point or other. Like creating the wormhole in Excalibur #14, which was just this past summer.
Superman just doesn't have the offensive power to get past Magneto's defenses or the defensive power to prevent Magneto from transforming Superman into a human or just swallowing him up into a red sun.
magnus isnt a good hand to hand fighter but id say hes a little more powerful in a way. if superman tryies to punch him or shoot him with his laser eyes wont do a damn thing cause magneto covers himself with his forcefield in an event like that ever happens. when he covers himself with his magnetic forcefield nothing can get through. superman doesnt have any powers of coverine up his body. but he doesnt need to in a way cause he wins most fights.
demigawd, where are you geting you information on the exact nature of Magneto's shield and how it works? I mean the part about it being able to automatically repeal any attack made against it.
The point me and others are trying to make is this:
By moving at light speed superman can attack Magneto thousands if not hundreds of thousands of times before Magneto even realizes the fight has started. This isn't a stab at Mags, but the fact is that as far as reaction and reflexes go he is still essentially a human. Now to fight he will have to realize the nature of a threat, think of a plan to counter the threat, and then take action. This should take at least a few seconds as it would for any person.
Superman, however, can fight at the speed of light which is about 300,000,000 meters per second. This means in the say 5 seconds or so it would take Magneto to decide on a attack and start to implement it, Superman would have had enough time to Superman could travel to the Moon and back about twice. It is an incredibitally unfair time advantage but that is why I and others see this fight as so one-sided.
Magneto might have stoped a few Class 100 Blows but he has to have a limit. If he is going to drain Superman's Solar Energy he would have to at least be reasonably close to Superman or at least know where he is. But, how will he even know where Superman is? He won't be able to see him and even if Mags could, Superman could be in outerspace a single second later. Now, if you have proof that Mags can track a person traveling at the speed of light or has ever done so, I'm all ears. But the problem is that even when his brain tells him where Superman is, its too late because Superman could then be hundreds of kilometers away in a mere fraction of a second.
Lastly, in the first second of the fight Superman could simply fly halfway to the moon and let lose on Mags with his Heat Vision. Even if Mags sheild could hold up, the superheated air around him would eventyally kill him. As all of the air would be FAR too hot for Mags to breath (even if he didn't have to lower his sheild to let fresh air in) and he can only hold in so much oxygen.
Originally posted by TheKahn
demigawd, where are you geting you information on the exact nature of Magneto's shield and how it works? I mean the part about it being able to automatically repeal any attack made against it.The point me and others are trying to make is this:
By moving at light speed superman can attack Magneto thousands if not hundreds of thousands of times before Magneto even realizes the fight has started. This isn't a stab at Mags, but the fact is that as far as reaction and reflexes go he is still essentially a human. Now to fight he will have to realize the nature of a threat, think of a plan to counter the threat, and then take action. This should take at least a few seconds as it would for any person.Superman, however, can fight at the speed of light which is about 300,000,000 meters per second. This means in the say 5 seconds or so it would take Magneto to decide on a attack and start to implement it, Superman would have had enough time to Superman could travel to the Moon and back about twice. It is an incredibitally unfair time advantage but that is why I and others see this fight as so one-sided.
Magneto might have stoped a few Class 100 Blows but he has to have a limit. If he is going to drain Superman's Solar Energy he would have to at least be reasonably close to Superman or at least know where he is. But, how will he even know where Superman is? He won't be able to see him and even if Mags could, Superman could be in outerspace a single second later. Now, if you have proof that Mags can track a person traveling at the speed of light or has ever done so, I'm all ears. But the problem is that even when his brain tells him where Superman is, its too late because Superman could then be hundreds of kilometers away in a mere fraction of a second.
Lastly, in the first second of the fight Superman could simply fly halfway to the moon and let lose on Mags with his Heat Vision. Even if Mags sheild could hold up, the superheated air around him would eventyally kill him. As all of the air would be FAR too hot for Mags to breath (even if he didn't have to lower his sheild to let fresh air in) and he can only hold in so much oxygen.
Back in around 1993 there was a Magneto one shot to commemorate the return of Magneto in the Fatal Attractions storyline. In it he explained how his powers worked and how he's able to do the things he does. He explained how any object that comes in contact with his forcefield is automatically repelled because it manipulates its electrons and generates a like charge. In that sense, it doesn't really matter how strong Superman is or how many times he punches the forcefield....it's using Superman's own force against him to repel the attack. So it's not a matter of an upper limit of strength or how many shots Magneto can take. That's why Magneto's forcefields were able to hold against people far more powerful than Superman, like Phoenix and Galactus. It's not an issue how how powerful you are. So talking about Superman's five billion planet-smashing punches per picosecond is moot. And ridiculous, but I won't go there.
When Magneto was under mental attack by Xavier from hundreds of miles away, Magneto was still able to pinpoint his location without visual contact just by focusing on him, found a metal chair, wrapped Xavier up and brought him over. From half a world away, he was able to set off volcanos while a hologram of himself did the talking. If we're now ignoring the concept of staying on the battlefield to benefit Superman, it actually doesn't. Magneto could wormhole himself into a lead bunker and just pick off Superman at will. Or just open up a portal into a red run. The whole time Superman is battling animated robot constructs, stopping skyscrapers from falling on people, and fruitlessly punching powered holograms.
The Superman supporters' only (and usual) strategy seems to revolve around doing something before the opponent can think - but once that fails, Superman has no effective options left, while Magneto has dozens of ways he could exploit Superman's weaknesses and end the fight violently and decisively.
Originally posted by demigawd
Back in around 1993 there was a Magneto one shot to commemorate the return of Magneto in the Fatal Attractions storyline. In it he explained how his powers worked and how he's able to do the things he does. He explained how any object that comes in contact with his forcefield is automatically repelled because it manipulates its electrons and generates a like charge. In that sense, it doesn't really matter how strong Superman is or how many times he punches the forcefield....it's using Superman's own force against him to repel the attack. So it's not a matter of an upper limit of strength or how many shots Magneto can take. That's why Magneto's forcefields were able to hold against people far more powerful than Superman, like Phoenix and Galactus. It's not an issue how how powerful you are. So talking about Superman's five billion planet-smashing punches per picosecond is moot. And ridiculous, but I won't go there.When Magneto was under mental attack by Xavier from hundreds of miles away, Magneto was still able to pinpoint his location without visual contact just by focusing on him, find a metal chair, wrap Xavier up and bring him over. From half a world away, he was able to set off volcanos while a hologram of himself did the talking. If we're now ignoring the concept of staying on the battlefield to benefit Superman, it actually doesn't. Magneto could wormhole himself into a lead bunker and just pick off Superman at will. Or just open up a portal into a red run. The whole time Superman is battle animated robot constructs, stopping skyscrapers from falling on people, and punching powered holograms.
The Superman supporters' only (and usual) strategy seems to revolve around doing something before the opponent can think - but once that fails, Superman has no effective options left, while Magneto has dozens of ways he could exploit Superman's weaknesses and end the fight violently and decisively.
But that was a man standing or sitting still, again I ask how will Magneto be able to track Superman who is going light speed? Has he ever tracked someone going that fast or let alone atacked them? I doubt it, so unless you can show some evidence to back that up, Magneto can't attack what he can't see.
Again, Superman could just Superheat the air around Mags and he would eventually run out of air. And so now Magneto can travel around in wormholes???
Originally posted by TheKahn
But that was a man standing or sitting still, again I ask how will Magneto be able to track Superman who is going light speed? Has he ever tracked someone going that fast or let alone atacked them? I doubt it, so unless you can show some evidence to back that up, Magneto can't attack what he can't see.Again, Superman could just Superheat the air around Mags and he would eventually run out of air. And so now Magneto can travel around in wormholes???
But that's what I'm saying....Magneto couldn't see Xavier. Xavier was hundreds of miles away. He just mentally envisioned Xavier and snared him. It doesn't matter if he is able to see Superman. All he has to do is mentally envision him.
On the topic of superspeed...Northstar goes at 99% the speed of light, and Magneto just grabbed him and choked him mid-attack.
Superheating the air around Magneto won't do much...in the amount of time it takes for Magneto to run out of air, he would have already drained Superman of his power and sent him into the nearest void.
And so now Magneto can travel around in wormholes???
Excalibur #14. Genosha to NYC round-trip.