Martian Manhunter Vs Superman

Originally posted by olympian
"Odd, that Superman dealt with the league during Sacrifice, and Martian Manhunter didn't put him down.
In JLA118, Despero mentally assaulted and dominated Aquaman and Martian Manhunter, alluding me to believe he's on a higher level. In the following issue, he could NOT do the same to Superman, and was getting mad about it"

And yet on previous fights Desespero has claim MM to be the hardest mind for him to control with BlueBettle coming as second. There are examples of both ways.

And Superman still gets mindcontrolled in a regular basis.

"Superman also is on panel calling Batman the most dangerous person on Earth. He also said Zod was the only person he's ever truly feared.. He also said the same about Doomsday.. He also said Thor was his best opponent ever, but he's said that to half of DCU, What's your point"

See how many character had the "most powerful" title, Superman included?

"During the JSA, trial of Atom Smasher, Jonn got backed down by an OMAC shooting fire out of his arm at him, and didn't do shit the whole fight as a result. That's far newer than Year One."

-Juntai he has survived fires before. You seem to have the idea that weakness kills him straight away.

Its a weakness like Superman has with Magic. It weaknes him but can or not put him down-

r e a d. There are again examples of both.

Its no more correct than saying magic gets Superman down all the time.

"I will agree, he's ON PAR, but still not close to Superman in these respects"

If hes on par then of course he is close. Wich is what this argument is for. They both have the means to take each other out.

Funny, you keept mentioning times characters have done things 10.. 20 years ago. lol. Superman was soundspeed back when, and had trouble lifting a house. Even 5 years ago, the characters weren't at the level they are at now.

Who used telepathy to mind control Superman? Max Lord, it took him years. Poison Ivy? Her's isn't telepathic at all, but rather plant-based.. like a love-potion. Show me someone recently taking Supes down mentally. I've proven times he hasn't.

What I'm saying is, although fire doesn't always down him outright. It's usually typical random fire he faces, or even another enemy with a flame gun or flame power. None of these.. are close to his heat vision.

Martian Manhunter simply will not beat Superman easily. His telepathy is no match for Despero's, who can't assault Superman's "advanced kryptonian mind".
His speed, strenth, durability, don't have the feats at all.

They do both have the means, they are both super-powered characters. More often than not though, I think current Superman, bloodlusted, will take out Martian Manhunter.

Superman has that technique to create Illusion for those who enters his mind.

Tho how do people always rape him like that is beyond me

Physically Supes will man handle the MM

Superman can beat any JLA and has when he lost his mind etc

"Funny, you keept mentioning times characters have done things 10.. 20 years ago. lol. Superman was soundspeed back when, and had trouble lifting a house. Even 5 years ago, the characters weren't at the level they are at now."

Wich includes MM.

"Who used telepathy to mind control Superman? Max Lord, it took him years. Poison Ivy? Her's isn't telepathic at all, but rather plant-based.. like a love-potion. Show me someone recently taking Supes down mentally. I've proven times he hasn't"

Proven times would be if he never did. Are you now telling me it never happened.

Next thing you will say is that Lord is a higher Tp than MM.

"Martian Manhunter simply will not beat Superman easily"

Word. Neither will Supes win easily.

"They do both have the means, they are both super-powered characters. More often than not though, I think current Superman, bloodlusted, will take out Martian Manhunter"

Superman all out that lost against Wonder Woman?

"Superman can beat any JLA and has when he lost his mind etc"

As can MM.

As for losing the mind: Fernus.

Originally posted by olympian
"It's been proven people greater than Martian Manhunter cannot penetrate Superman's mind."

Guys under his level can, but he cant? Where.

"He had no weakness to fire, while Jonn does"

And in the same way as Superman`s weaknesshe doesnt go down straight away. Like the White Martians didnt.

"and can cut moons in half, pushed planets, etc. Martian Manhunter hasn't done anything like this "

Moving the moon isent anything like this? You are also missing the point. Im not saying he is stronger or even necessarily equal. Im saying "no near his level" its bull.

And Superman moved a planet alright. After being sundipped.

"Superman bloodlusted dealt with the league too, and without a bonus power-up, and faster than Fenrus did."

Odd i recall a Superman wanting to rule the world and the Jla wer still up and Orion didnt went down fighting him.

Fenrus on he other hand, not being a power up but instead a being unleashed owned the Jla that wasent holding back.

"And he still shoots fire from his eyes, and according to the DC webpage-- Martian Manhunter weakness to flame is caused by psychological and genetic factors. His body simply can't handle powerful flame"

Thenhow did the White Martian Proteus continue to fight Superman after getting blasted. Explained that one to me.

Jla year one has John surviving a fire and not going down. Oops.

"as they said at full level it's impossible to guage it's strength"

They say that to how many characters. I recall Superman saying MM was the most powerful being on Earth in the JLA title as well. On panel.

"Orion, MM, WW, and Steel were barely able to hold an annoyed Supes in the King of the World storyline. This is with them all dogpiling him and tryng hard as hell to restrain him. Supes was mildly annoyed...he was even going all out."

And didnt Orion fought him mano a mano? Or was that another All out Supes story he was in.

Different story, still doesnt negate the fact that between all of them, they could barely hold Supes.

Then its picking and choosing. Either you take the Fenrus into account as well as the King of The World. Only fair.

And i do. Wich means both are beasts and that "not near" his level is bull.

"Different story, still doesnt negate the fact that between all of them, they could barely hold Supes."

Then there is even one more story that i tough when he has lost his mind. Interesting.

How did that one ended.

Originally posted by Juntai
Except Superman is resistant to telepathic assaults. It took years for someone to someone to dominate him. Despero was assaulting him and couldn't, and he mentally assaulted and dominated Aquaman and MM at the same time.. who are both world affecting level telapths.

well but wasn´t supes already mind raped before? for a white martian for example.
the problem with dc is that they make many mistakes. you can read a comic who says something, and another comic who says the complete opposite.

It means both ways can happen.

it means it sucks

Originally posted by olympian
"Funny, you keept mentioning times characters have done things 10.. 20 years ago. lol. Superman was soundspeed back when, and had trouble lifting a house. Even 5 years ago, the characters weren't at the level they are at now."

Wich includes MM.

"Who used telepathy to mind control Superman? Max Lord, it took him years. Poison Ivy? Her's isn't telepathic at all, but rather plant-based.. like a love-potion. Show me someone recently taking Supes down mentally. I've proven times he hasn't"

Proven times would be if he never did. Are you now telling me it never happened.

Next thing you will say is that Lord is a higher Tp than MM.

"Martian Manhunter simply will not beat Superman easily"

Word. Neither will Supes win easily.

"They do both have the means, they are both super-powered characters. More often than not though, I think current Superman, bloodlusted, will take out Martian Manhunter"

Superman all out that lost against Wonder Woman?

"Superman can beat any JLA and has when he lost his mind etc"

As can MM.

As for losing the mind: Fernus.

Manchester Black couldn't even stand up and telepathic and TK assault and drop Superman. And he was more powerful than Martian Manhunter. On a random whim he dominated nearly every DC Earth baddie and had them doing all sorts of stuff, then meeting back in Metropolis for a final showdown with Superman. He also made his own and Lex Luthor's mind unreadable by Martian Manhunter. He also mentally held Doomsday for a period of time.

And no, I'm not saying that those old times never happened.. but it's obvious that Superman is on a new level these days. Apparently a telepath able to drop down Jonn and Arthur at the SAME TIME, and COULD NOT take down Superman, is quite a feat.

Ah... Wonder Woman got lucky, and she also had to use Kryptonite to bring him down to her level. Did you not notice... he knocked unconscious in ONE punch?

And without PIS/CIS, Superman has the various Torqasms.. Vo, and Rao, to telepathically combat with.

"And no, I'm not saying that those old times never happened.. but it's obvious that Superman is on a new level these days. Apparently a telepath able to drop down Jonn and Arthur at the SAME TIME, and COULD NOT take down Superman, is quite a feat."

I agree it is. Just keep in mind MM has feats on that level as well against Desespero that havent been retconned.

"Ah... Wonder Woman got lucky, and she also had to use Kryptonite to bring him down to her level. Did you not notice... he knocked unconscious in ONE punch"

Lucky nada.

She used skills and strenght while being stated to hold back and defeated him. Its a high feat for sure but it happened.

And she obviously was ko. Her durability compared with the other guns is lower. She always gets more hurt than Supes when they fight.

And yet she has two wins. Doesnt mean shes stronger because she isent.

Means like MM she has the means and its close to his level to take the win.

Originally posted by olympian
"And no, I'm not saying that those old times never happened.. but it's obvious that Superman is on a new level these days. Apparently a telepath able to drop down Jonn and Arthur at the SAME TIME, and COULD NOT take down Superman, is quite a feat."

I agree it is. Just keep in mind MM has feats on that level as well against Desespero that havent been retconned.

"Ah... Wonder Woman got lucky, and she also had to use Kryptonite to bring him down to her level. Did you not notice... he knocked unconscious in ONE punch"

Lucky nada.

She used skills and strenght while being stated to hold back and defeated him. Its a high feat for sure but it happened.

And she obviously was ko. Her durability compared with the other guns is lower. She always gets more hurt than Supes when they fight.

And yet she has two wins. Doesnt mean shes stronger because she isent.

Means like MM she has the means and its close to his level to take the win.

And she didn't really beat Superman, she snapped Max Lord's neck so she wouldn't have to fight him. The fight was cut short. But blow for blow, Superman beat her ass through most of that comic. She had like 3 offensive moves the whole time, including cutting his neck, which he barely reacted to. He grabbed his neck.. natural.. no sign of pain though... and he stops there, dumbfounded, because he's still in shock from what he saw in his mind, and what she did. And she was holding back... barely... but using Kryptonite, and all of her weapons, lol.

time for me to go to bed bro
be back later tonite, prolly.
[work third shift.]

it bears mentioning again that superman conceded that J'onn was the most powerful on Earth. even if he was just dick riding to make MM sound cool he would have at least said "one of" the most powerful instaed of "the most". you get me?

Fernus was owning all of them completey. lets not forget how they ended up defeating Fernus, umm by beating him down?--no!, by subdoing him physically?--no!............ oh yeah thats right.... by re-enlisting Plastic Man, who is immune to the psychic powers of the Martian Manhunter, and has superior shape-changing abilities...thats the ticket. heck, The story even hints that this is the reason that Plastic Man was originally brought to the Justice League by Batman, who wanted a balance in place in case the Martian Manhunter ever got out of control. why didnt he just say hey, oh well, if MM goes out of control at least we have superman [shrugs shoulders]

Also, think of when he killed the white martians--as freaking powerful as they are individually, even tho there werent any panels of the fight you think they just stood there and not fight for their lives, but they got walked across anyway--all 70 of them!

and for the last time he isnt affected too adversely by fire anymore. thats why he's has been going thru therapy with that chick Scorch..heck thats why he even turned into fernus in the frist place cuz once his fear was conquered that inherent programming by the Oans was erased..so its not a physical thing but rather an emotional and pyschological one.

and to answer a previous question yes his martian vision is heat vision. cuz in that arch where that fairy tale lady was trying to take over reality when the JLA were all trapped in the kooky, magicy, forrest. batman i believe it was, instructed both him and superman to use thier "heat vision" to burn away the vines(or something like that) that were coming to life and entangling them---and it proved to be to no avail... that was one of the times when supes mentioned specifically that he desnt like magic. so if he was gonna be afraid of superman's heat vision. he certainly would have been afraid to use his own dont ya think? and every profile you read its gonna say that he has heat vision that's similar to superman--ergo the same thing so that "oh no *slaps face like mcauly culken*-- hes gonna be afraid of heat vision!" doesnt wash with me" and this fervor that he's weaker than superman is complete bullshit too. on a reg. day he's stronger, not by much, but is. superman would have to dive in the heart of the sun for a boost to over power him physically. plus whats stopping him from turning intangible and watch superman make an ass outta himself?

Max lord is a guy who doesnt rank at the top for telepath's thats why he knew better that the best way was to chip away little by little to gain control eventually. And who says superman cant be mind controlled out right? then what do you call Eclipso possessing him, to get to Captian marvel. and even though it wasnt by means of telepthy, but mind control nonetheless, what do you call Ivy throwing a plant on his damn chest?--which harkens back to the classic "for the man who has everything" when another plant controlled his mind--and no im talking about the JLU episode, this actualy happened in comics. and what about the time when brainiac's orignal plan was to seize his organic body, and seized his mindby transfering his consciousness in..albiet temporarily. and what about when darksied mind controlled him to think that he was his son, and had him killing dissidents on apkolips? so i dont know where he all of a sudden gets this "he is immune to telepthy and mind controlled" powers from. where has it ever been stated that "current" superman is immune to telepathy or mind control? when Eclipso got him earlier this year, and ivy got him about 4 years ago...man you guys slay me somethimes😄

great post manjaro. could you tell me wich are the comics about fernus and the white martians?
good reference about "the man who has everything" a superman comic written by the great Alan Moore.
i didn´t read the fernus story, i didn´t knew plastic man was immune to his powers even so he couldn´t be able of beating him all by himself right?

Originally posted by manjaro

Max lord is a guy who doesnt rank at the top for telepath's thats why he knew better that the best way was to chip away little by little to gain control eventually. And who says superman cant be mind controlled out right? then what do you call Eclipso possessing him, to get to Captian marvel. and even though it wasnt by means of telepthy, but mind control nonetheless, what do you call Ivy throwing a plant on his damn chest?--which harkens back to the classic "for the man who has everything" when another plant controlled his mind--and no im talking about the JLU episode, this actualy happened in comics. and what about the time when brainiac's orignal plan was to seize his organic body, and seized his mindby transfering his consciousness in..albiet temporarily. and what about when darksied mind controlled him to think that he was his son, and had him killing dissidents on apkolips? so i dont know where he all of a sudden gets this "he is immune to telepthy and mind controlled" powers from. where has it ever been stated that "current" superman is immune to telepathy or mind control? when Eclipso got him earlier this year, and ivy got him about 4 years ago...man you guys slay me somethimes😄

loot. instead of having you chase down single issues just get JLA:Vol.14 Trial of Fire . also the thing with plastic man is he's not human anymore. so he doesnt have any brainwave patterns. i belive thats what grants him his immuntiy to mind tricks. Plas was instrumental in his defeat cuz as they weere battling in korea? after a nuclear strike and flames everywhere, they were changining into giant forms, and toppling buildings and shit, and he damn near wrestled him down, but due to PIS Fernus needed both fire and the anguish of ppl's minds to spawn(as the burning martians produce asexually) but the scorch chick she held back the flames, which distracted him.. then dude quickly turned on her..

More PIS ensued when the shock of his girl being hurt and of course his friends believing in him cuased J'onn to free himself from the astral plane of his own mind where he was in chains, and broke free of fernus's grip. so boom fernus thought that it was his spawn coming out of him but it turned out to be J'onn crashing out of his chest, then coupled with being pissed off, and league flooding the area to douse the remaining flames which further depowered Fernus, J'onn tore him apart on a molecular level. this all happened in #89.

and futher proof that fire no longer affects him, at the end of it all he said

"The flame and i are again bound, body and soul, but not as before. i can withstand simple fire without pain. Candle flame or a burning forrest, it matters not if they are not flames of psychic significance. Flames of suffering as the burning created, flames of passion that an arsonist might create, flames of love, those....those most of all i cannot bear."

so i dont care if you throw him in a volcano, its not gonna hurt him. so thats that

Originally posted by UniOmni
Then its picking and choosing. Either you take the Fenrus into account as well as the King of The World. Only fair.

It could also be taken into account that MM got his ass handed to him twice by Asmodel who wasn't even trying. Effortlessy beaten the first time until Supes showed up, and Easily killed the second time.

Also, if bringing up Fernus, why not take a Sundipped Supes into account? Both are extreme shows of their power and not something either just does normally.

MM would destroy Supes. MM 10/10

Originally posted by manjaro
loot. instead of having you chase down single issues just get JLA:Vol.14 Trial of Fire . also the thing with plastic man is he's not human anymore. so he doesnt have any brainwave patterns. i belive thats what grants him his immuntiy to mind tricks. Plas was instrumental in his defeat cuz as they weere battling in korea? after a nuclear strike and flames everywhere, they were changining into giant forms, and toppling buildings and shit, and he damn near wrestled him down, but due to PIS Fernus needed both fire and the anguish of ppl's minds to spawn(as the burning martians produce asexually) but the scorch chick she held back the flames, which distracted him.. then dude quickly turned on her..

More PIS ensued when the shock of his girl being hurt and of course his friends believing in him cuased J'onn to free himself from the astral plane of his own mind where he was in chains, and broke free of fernus's grip. so boom fernus thought that it was his spawn coming out of him but it turned out to be J'onn crashing out of his chest, then coupled with being pissed off, and league flooding the area to douse the remaining flames which further depowered Fernus, J'onn tore him apart on a molecular level. this all happened in #89.

and futher proof that fire no longer affects him, at the end of it all he said

"The flame and i are again bound, body and soul, but not as before. i can withstand simple fire without pain. Candle flame or a burning forrest, it matters not if they are not flames of psychic significance. Flames of suffering as the burning created, flames of passion that an arsonist might create, flames of love, those....those most of all i cannot bear."

so i dont care if you throw him in a volcano, its not gonna hurt him. so thats that

Thanks. i forgot to said, i read recently the comic where MM remembers what happened to him in mars.
he thought that fire hurt him, but then he remembers that the only reason he is afraid of fire is because what happened to his family and that in reality fire causes him no harm physically speaking. i had the idea that after this comic, fire would mean nothing to him no more, it seems that after all it wasn´t true, not until this trial of fire.