Originally posted by Xplosive
Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised.Are you serious? Do you really think PF has a good feat as Thanos with THOTI? Seriously? Which one?
👆
Originally posted by Xplosive
No, it's not. It's you attachment to the PF that makes you think that way.
You don't even know what I wanted to say.PF had a choice like everyone has. It listened LT, because it knew, if it wouldn't, what you you think would happen? It knew if LT would interfene, it would be stopped. It was her choice to listen. If it wouldn't, it wouldn't fare well.
But you go around and complicate this ''where did it say and so on...'', it's logical PF listened, because LT said it. It was upon PF would it listen or not, but it did.
Of course, she isn't stupid to go in a battle agianst LT, where it has no chance.
Im not here to play guessing games. Its your job to state clearly exactly what you mean.
You said straight up that the Phoenix Force was forced by LT to not take a human host. You were wrong. The Phoenix didnt take one not through any fear of LT, but because she knew how powerful she was and how she cant be controlled by mortal hands. Its as simple as that. Thats whats stated so your comments about how she knew better than to go in battle with LT and she wouldnt have a chance are your unsupported opinion.
Show better feats from LT than Jean Grey and then we can consider even mentioning the Phoenix Forces name. Simple.
Originally posted by Xplosive
And don't bring low feats of LT, Galactus would literally destroy PF out of existence, if not for other abstracts and that is even conifrmed in BIO.
You know this isn't true. This has been proven wrong countless times. I even did so in the "Most Powerful Mutant" thread and you conceded on the point. So why youre bringing up the point again i dont know.
Theres a difference between the Phoenix Force and the Phoenix. The Phoenix is a host or avatar of the Force. As stated in the bio Phoenix was at risk, never the Phoenix Force.
As stated on panel by Galactus his device was only to separate the Force from Phoenix(Rachel). However the bond was a part of the natural order so in doing so not only was he killing Phoenix, but he was making the stars die because he was going against nature.
The Force was unaffected because as also stated clearly in the bio, the force itself is indestructible. Use your common sense.
Just to reiterate Phoenix(RACHEL) was being killed, not the Phoenix Force and Galactus stated himself that the Phoenix Force would be returned to the cosmos and separated from Phoenix.
Once again, just like a countless number of times you have misinterpreted.
Do not mention this point again. 👇
Eternity has also low showings, but it was rarely shown the totality of Eternity.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Once again, just like a countless number of times you have misinterpreted.
No, it's not about that, sometimes (many times when it's you in the debate) I am doing it on purpose, because of you exaggaration of the PF.
But sometimes it still bothers me, when Jean (like in Ultimate Universe) said to Apocalypse ''Taste the full force of my powers'' and even then Apocalypse wasn't destroyed immediately. LOL
I am still waiting which feat can compare to THOTI?
I know there isn't one, but you said it has?
And I am pretty sure that PF was also destroyed like others when Thanos did what he did.
But since it's not on panel, it's only an unsupported opinion. So we don't know, right?
Originally posted by Xplosive
Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised.Are you serious? Do you really think PF has a good feat as Thanos with THOTI? Seriously? Which one?
👆
Many.
The HOTI absorbed a universe. Big Deal. The Phoenix Force's energies power universes, one of its hosts had had the universe in her hand as her play thing manipulating it right down to its atomic level a feat she'd only be able to accomplish if she was tapping into greater energies than said universe was composed of( hers anyway 😂 ) 🙂
Amputating and absorbing 150 years of timeline into the white hot room
Then theres powering the energy matrix of the multiverse swallowing M'kraan crystal TWICE on panel.
Theres also connecting all realities of the multiverse to Otherworld.
Top tier feats ✅
HOTI absorbed a reality and an LT M'body. Given that:
a) such M bodys have claimed that their ultimate punishment is causing a supernova and then fled from Korvac after their attack failed,
b)Been destroyed by Reed Richards energy canons
c)Didnt do much better than Eternity when it came to fighting against the HOTI
d) have NO comparable feats to powers like the IG, M'kraan crystal, Phoenix Force
i'd say the absorption of an LT Mbody isnt something to orgasm over. 😆
Originally posted by Xplosive
Eternity has also low showings, but it was rarely shown the totality of Eternity.
Eternitys totality is the actual physical universe, basically what Jean Grey held in her hand 🙂
Thats why he manifests as that humanoid M'Body to act within the universe that is himself.
Originally posted by Xplosive
No, it's not about that, sometimes (many times when it's you in the debate) I am doing it on purpose, because of you exaggaration of the PF.
I dont exaggerate at all. The feats i speak of i refer to what is literally stated in official sources to have happened. I dont add bits on, i just present what Marvel tells us. With that in mind im not exaggerating, youre just misinterpreting or under-estimating 😬
Originally posted by Xplosive
But sometimes it still bothers me, when Jean (like in Ultimate Universe) said to Apocalypse ''Taste the full force of my powers'' and even then Apocalypse wasn't destroyed immediately. LOL
That was Jean hosting the Phoenix Forces powers, just like Rachel did. Rachels full power wasnt the full power of the Force because Rachel was given limited access. Who's to say how much of the Forces power that that Jean Greys full power accounted for?
Given that it was state and depicted on panel that the Ultimate Phoenix Force created that reality and made the stars, planets and all life i'd say not much 🙂
Originally posted by Xplosive
I am still waiting which feat can compare to THOTI?
I know there isn't one, but you said it has?
Answered already.
A lot of the Forces feats are beyond absorbing a reality and LT's mbody which has been shown on several occassions not to possess anywhere near the full might his status suggests.
He may actually be supremely powerful, however we have yet to see an Mbody that hes instilled with a significant amount of power.
With that in mind the HOTI whilst it may be the most powerful thing around as suggested by the title, its feat didnt verify that.
Originally posted by Xplosive
And I am pretty sure that PF was also destroyed like others when Thanos did what he did.
But since it's not on panel, it's only an unsupported opinion. So we don't know, right?
The totality of the Phoenix Force isnt encompassed in reality. It is also found in the White Hot Room. Absorbing that reality is irrelevant.
But you seem to be understanding. If its not shown on panel, then you cant assume it happened.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Eternitys totality is the actual physical universe, basically what Jean Grey held in her hand 🙂Thats why he manifests as that humanoid M'Body to act within the universe that is himself.
What I had in mind was actually Multi-Eternity. I admit I am not into comics as before, not even close, but isn't Multi-Eternity everything, universe is just a part of its true totality.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont exaggerate at all. The feats i speak of i refer to what is literally stated in official sources to have happened. I dont add bits on, i just present what Marvel tells us. With that in mind im not exaggerating, youre just misinterpreting or under-estimating 😬f.
I don't say you exaggarete feats (in sense of lying), I say you exaggarete when PF does something, you seem so impressed and I am not. In this way I think you exaggarate, in my opinion.
True, I am not impressed by many (I was impressed by Protege for what it seems he was capable). I liked WPOTC feats, but I never find it anything special. I was impressed by Wanda (now not so much, since she wasn't all that).
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That was Jean hosting the Phoenix Forces powers, just like Rachel did. Rachels full power wasnt the full power of the Force because Rachel was given limited access. Who's to say how much of the Forces power that that Jean Greys full power accounted for?
I didn't say it was full PF, I say that all the powers host used, Apocalypse was holding some time. And PF was depicted as a creator of the UU and than some mutant holding so much. It doesn't matter anyway.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A lot of the Forces feats are beyond absorbing a reality and LT's mbody which has been shown on several occassions not to possess anywhere near the full might his status suggests.He may actually be supremely powerful, however we have yet to see an Mbody that hes instilled with a significant amount of power.
With that in mind the HOTI whilst it may be the most powerful thing around as suggested by the title, its feat didnt verify that.
Anything I have seen from PF, what you have shown, wasn't even close impressive to me as THOTI.
THOTI absorbed and recreated it. Forces feats never included anything to do with LT. What THOTI did, wasn't only against LT, but also all others combined and he was actually playing with them. It actually did verify that, because it showed it was far beyond LT and everyone else combined (no one could oppose him). When I see PF doing something like that and going toe to toe against what THOTI went (combined), then we will have something.
LT and others used all powers and THOTI was completely immune (like I said, playing with them).
Till then, no,... PF feats aren't up to par, not even close in my opinion.
And this is the case where we know PF wouldn't stand a chance anyway.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]He assaulted the court because to stop the trial. He may not have tried to kill them but he didn't feel they had authority to put him on trial. Hence why he said "how dare you seek to judge me". Either way, that blast still put Eternity on his knees. Don't try and belittle that feat because the IG has manipulated on a universal scale. Either way, IG>Eternity/universe.
Who's arguing against IG>Eternity? What I said was on panel, Eternity told the court, which included the LT, that had that actually been the 'real' him and not a representation, the blasts effects would have been non existent.
We know Warlock wasn't trying to murder them so that boast by Eternity isn't too far fetched. We also know that he said "Let the court note....." meaning that if he was lying the LT would have known, so idle boasting would be stupid.
Quasar was told that most of the abstracts use M-bodies to create a physical body. Then Quasar asked what about physical beings like Galactus and Stranger. The answer was that same times the physicals also use M-bodies to attend somewhere without making an appearance. It doesn't say that these beings we or were not using M-bodies at the time.Celestials operating in the 616 use M-bodies. Those armors are a type of M-bodies. Galactus, Watcher, and Stranger can use M-bodies but I see no reason for them using M-bodies here. As for the abstracts, they always use M-bodies because they have no bodies to begin with.
It doesn't make much of a difference because most of what you see is their M-bodies and they channel there power through it. When characters reference how powerful a Celestial, it's referring to what they've encountered: the armor/M-bodies. That attack by Odin, Zeus, and Vishnu was on the armor/M-body of Arishem.
Let's get this out the way right now.
Either -
1) that court proceeding consisted of M-body abstractions (Love, Hate, Order, Chaos, Eternity, LT) and non M-body cosmics (Galactus, Stranger, Watcher, Ziran, etc...) and when Warlock swatted them the only "real" non M-body cosmic that was unfazed was Ziran. Which is a nice little feat for the Celestials. This my position.
2) everyone at the trial was an M-body. Which makes the LT snapping his fingers and restoring order a joke, since Warlock only swatted away glorified ventriloquist dummies (M-bodies). This is your position.
Which is it?
The Gauntlet gives you supremacy over all aspects of reality, over all these beings except LT. It's stated numerous times and hence why Eternity fears it.
Who's arguing against this?
And my point to you is that that was one of LT's lower showing. And he's got very few of those.
He's got very few showings doing anything worthwhile....period. The star going nova feat was the best we've seen him do on panel.
What does Odin have to do with anything? We know that it wasn't really Odin because it flat out states it's merely the residual life force of Odin that everyone detected and it meant nothing to even the Tribunal.Now where does it say representation in the book or that handbook excerpt regarding the brothers? It says right there by Dweller that he's the supreme entity in the multiverse. He holds two incalculably powerful siblings that are playing out the conflict of existence. BUT NOT JUST YET. First he must consult his Spectral hooded ally before PLAY CAN BEGIN. Those brothers could not proceed to play out existence until LT and Spectre agrees to it and all is aligned. You see Tribunal clench the brothers during that line. The following page says Alpha and Omega (beginning & end) revolve on a wheel spun by his hand, a HAND THAT WILL SOON OPEN UP TO ALLOW TWO BROTHERS TO ASSUME THEIR PRE-DESTINED ROLE AS ARCHITECTS OF NEW REALITIES. That was their actuality unless you have proof it isn't. In fact, this whole thing was meant to ret-con DC vs Marvel, proving that the Tribunal was actually more powerful than the two brothers.
Again all talk with nothing shown on panel. We all know at least on of the participants, the Spectre, goes from joke to God, depending on how much authority he gets from his boss. The LT could be the same. You know, since we don't have him doing jack on panel except talk.
You want to see the Tribunal destroy a timeline? The Tribunal has few appearances and you want to see him destroy a timeline. Please take this nonsense somewhere else because this is getting ridiculous. The Tribunal never shook the multiverse either so I guess Odin is more powerful?
Why not? We've never seen the LT do what Odin/Seth did in their throw down.
No. What the heck are you talking about? If the IG only functions in it's universe of origin, how do you explain Magus with the IG in his universe, that is several dimensions away from the 616, pwning Galactus and playing with Nullification energies? The only time it didn't work properly was in a crossover into the DC universe. It worked properly in the Malibu universe though when Malibu was bought by Marvel.
Well it's been retconned. Check the scans GS provided. The most recent explanation is the IG only works in the universe it's native to.
Xorn killed Jean, not Phoenix. Jean's death shattered it. Galactus was killing Phoenix itself, not Rachel. And if you're mad, talk to the X-writters. That going crying to me.No one is disputing the Phoenix's essentialness to the cosmos. But if you want to bring up that Korvac incident, I'll gladly bring up these instances where the Phoenix's host died or the Force itself getting manipulated by alien weaponry.
Go talk to the writers if you have a problem. But you're the one who brought up that Korvac incident to bring down LT's feats record. So don't whine when I do the same to the Phoenix Force.
No supposedly Xorn blew the PF apart to the point it thought it was dead and nothing happened to creation. Galactus was supposedly slowly tearing it apart and the universe was dying as a result.
See the problem? You probably don't but whatever.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]Not everyone uses M-Bodies. They have the option of using M-bodies so get that straight. Most abstracts and the Celestials use M-bodies. That's how you're able to see them in comics. There actions and feats come from those appearances. So when these beings get blasted about and trashed, it's a high end feat because you hardly ever see someone dominate them this way. Death or it's M-body if you want to call that ripped Walker's heart out with ease, a death god to an entire galaxies. When Kubik runs into that Celestial that he feared, that was an M-body. And we've seen Cube Beings warp 2D beings into 3D and blind Watchers with their powers. If you want to argue that, then why don't you argue that it was just LT's M-body there as well and not his actuality?
See my previous post about this.
Lol. Maybe it's because he and Warlock already knew the outcome. Because it's quite evident that Warlock couldn't not harm or threaten the Tribunal to back down in any way. Why not turn off the gems? Because that's not the point. The whole point was passing judgement and giving Warlock a chance to give up the Gauntlet. He didn't just shut it off because they both knew the outcome of the fight. Warlock wasn't going to win and both knew he would give up the power instead of putting creation through that. Creation can be fixed, it's one universe. If they fought, it would be Warlock's doing, not LT who has was willing to fight. But again, why shut down that power when LT knows Warlock was going to give in?And if it was about stopping the gems from working in unison, then why did Warlock assemble the gems in Infinity War and was shocked that the gems didn't work in unison? I mean if he gave permission than why get shocked? Why bother gathering the gems together to form the Gauntlet and stop a threat that was affecting two universes when he agreed to a degree that the gems no long function in unison? He didn't know that because that wasn't the judgement. [/qoute]
"LOL" if the LT could have shut down the Gems without risking universal destruction he would have. The fact that he couldn't speaks for itself.
[quote]Yeah for it. So now you're pulling up a better depiction of the Phoenix. Well, LT simply materializes Shi'Ar weaponry aimed at the Force and kill it. So what happens when you bring in low end feats? I can do it too.
How would they "kill" it? "Kill it" like who? Xorn? Where nothing happens to the universe. Or "kill it" like Galactus, where everything dies with it?
The doesn't mean it has total control over every other aspects of the universe. Hence why you see references to it being one of the primary forces of the universe and never the top force of the universe. It's even seen as an elemental. If Phoenix is the big bang, the shouldn't Entropy be it's equal? And we know Entropy if blown to pieces turns becomes a new Eternity. So then is Eternity not the Phoenix's equal? Then you have Death as well.Reed Richards is supposedly the smartest man in Marvel comics but where does he say that the Force is some how more powerful than the other abstracts? As for Richards, he's not TOAA. Thanos became one with power of TOAA said LT was the top being in the MU. That big bang stuff is small potatoes compared to LT.
This is laughable. The writers brought this up and put it in Reed's mouth because that's what they wanted to convey : PF = Big Bang. What's even funnier is that they weren't dealing with the PF so why bring it up if the statement is just fluff or BS?
Kubik: The first level. The Stars! Plasmatic geodes of concentrated cosmic life force. (talking about stars). The SOURCE from which ALL OTHER LIFE springs. (talking about stars again. Space, time, mind, death, void, anomaly, chaos, and order for instance aren't life.) The First - and in many ways greatest - of the principalities. (still talking about stars). They are the MOST PRECIOUS of things. (one way it's greater than other principalities in the universe like death, time, space, etc. Life is precious! Ever heard of that? It's only said like a thousand times through this and other mediums) Despite their power, THEY ARE REMARKABLY FRAGILE. (still talking about stars). The well from which they draw their sustenance is subject to turbulence. Periodically, it ignites in the form of the chaos bringer predator of stars - the Dark Phoenix. And YET, the Dark Phoenix MERELY SERVES EVOLUTION ITSELF.Kubik says stars are the sustenance of life, hence why it's in many ways the greatest of principalities. It's all talking about life. Life brings about other concepts such as love and hate. Life has the potential to grow, evolve, and thrive. It can create order and chaos. Stars also are the reason for the formation of planets for life to grew on and energy for it to develop. Hence why this source of power MERELY SERVES evolution. You missed where he moves on to call LT the most Supreme Being that can be comprehended who exist in and judge all multiverses. Then he refers to Eternity as the power that encompasses all others, the sum of which is all things in this universe. Phoenix is one of the great powers, not the great power. How you get that Phoenix is more powerful than LT and Eternity from that line about stars is mind boggling.
Wow just wow. Ok I see what I'm dealing with now. It says it right there plain as day. The first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities. The principalities being the levels of power in the universe. The whole point of the trip was showing the new born omnipotent Kosmos the different layers of power in creation. You can believe what you want.
Originally posted by Xplosive
What I had in mind was actually Multi-Eternity. I admit I am not into comics as before, not even close, but isn't Multi-Eternity everything, universe is just a part of its true totality.
The totality of Eternity 616 is the physical universe that Jean Grey manipulated in her palm. At the time of the confrontation with Adam Warlock a Multi-Eternity had never been defined or mentioned. Eternity was talking about the 616 universe when he referred to his totality.
Originally posted by Xplosive
I don't say you exaggarete feats (in sense of lying), I say you exaggarete when PF does something, you seem so impressed and I am not. In this way I think you exaggarate, in my opinion.
True, I am not impressed by many (I was impressed by Protege for what it seems he was capable). I liked WPOTC feats, but I never find it anything special. I was impressed by Wanda (now not so much, since she wasn't all that).
The reason you dont seem so impressed is because you dont analyse the feats and properly think about what achieving them entails and what they mean in the bigger picture.
No character in Marvel current continuity has better feats than the Phoenix Force.
Originally posted by Xplosive
I didn't say it was full PF, I say that all the powers host used, Apocalypse was holding some time. And PF was depicted as a creator of the UU and than some mutant holding so much. It doesn't matter anyway.
Yes and if the host doesnt have the full powers of the Phoenix Force then that would explain why her full powers didnt take out Apocalypse as easily as you'd think. And if the host doesnt have the full powers of the Phoenix Force then theres nothing to debate about is there, its not a low showing if the character has a comparatively low powerset. So why even mention it? 😂
Originally posted by Xplosive
Anything I have seen from PF, what you have shown, wasn't even close impressive to me as THOTI.THOTI absorbed and recreated it. Forces feats never included anything to do with LT. What THOTI did, wasn't only against LT, but also all others combined and he was actually playing with them. It actually did verify that, because it showed it was far beyond LT and everyone else combined (no one could oppose him). When I see PF doing something like that and going toe to toe against what THOTI went (combined), then we will have something.
LT and others used all powers and THOTI was completely immune (like I said, playing with them).
Till then, no,... PF feats aren't up to par, not even close in my opinion.
And this is the case where we know PF wouldn't stand a chance anyway.
Ive addressed this before quite comprehensively in my last post.
The LT M-body has never been imbued with any great power from what we've seen on panel. Therefore Thanos absorbing it is not a great deal unless you can show us some impressive LT feats that are on par with the IG, M'kraan crystal or the Phoenix Forces. Show the evidence or forget it.
Furthermore what you seem to be doing is making a distinction between the universe and the abstracts, as if its the universe AND the abstracts. The abstracts are just universal concepts, they are a part of the universe, they tap into the universes power. So being within the universe and brushing off attacks from the abstracts is nowhere near as impressive as manipulating the actual physical universe(the totality of the abstracts, life, energy and matter) at the atomic level. As Eternity verifies, M Bodies are nothing compared to their totality. So Thanos could have fought every abstract and hero in the universe and swatted them aside and whilst that may have looked more visually exciting and impressive, feats wise it pales into insignificance compared to Jean Grey manipulating all reality in the palm of her hand.
As i said, analyse feats logically and think about what they really entail, dont just focus on pretty pictures . What i have just stated is common sense.
As it stands, simply absorbing a single reality and LTs M Body, is nothing when Jean manipulates such realities in the palm of her hand at the atomic level thereby showing shes drawing on more power than is contained in said reality.
I said that bit before but i just had to put it in bold because it doesnt seem to be getting through to you.
As visually impressive as Thanos' battle looked, in terms of a power display Jeans amputation of 150 years of timeline and manipulation of the totality of 616 in the palm of her hand is leagues beyond beating down the abstracts who are each just part of the universe.
Reality itself is composed of the Phoenix Forces energies so absorbing and emitting a segment of Phoenix power and then claiming that puts him on par with the totality of the Force is laughable.
The M'kraan crysal feat alone is leagues beyond what Thanos did with HOTI. Her energies contained the power that absorbed the previous multiverse that Galan came from. And yet you want to compare Thanos absorbing and emitting a single reality(made up of just a segment of Phoenix power) just because he also absorbed an LT M Body.
Once again, show a feat by an LT M Body thats impressive or forget this ludicrous argument.
LTs M bodys have never been shown to carry anything much greater than universal power. One got destroyed by Reed Richards invention and yet because Thanos absorbed one thats enough to make his absorption of a single reality more impressive than the Force containing the M'kraan crystal with its proven mulltiverse swallowing and resetting power?
Get out of here 😂
GS... I like you man, and you're a good poster.. but this last post is a bunch of poop. I want you to prove the following please..
1. Please prove that the LT that showed up to fight Thanos with the heart wa a M-body. I would like proof of this please, not your speculation on what it was. If it wasn't stated to be an m-body it wasn't an m-body, period. Thanos doing what he did is exponentially greater than anything The Phoenix has ever done. Remember seeing the LT holding Megaverses in his hands.. more impressive than ANYTHING Phoenix has ever done.. Ooo that and being the judge for the all powerful TOAA. If TOAA wants the LT to win.. he will beat any force in marvel with but a gesture.
2. Lastly, your logic that you need some all powerful feats in order to prove you're powerful is illogical. TOAA doesn't have any impressive feats to speak of but we know he is THE most powerful. The LT being second to the TOAA and having the ability to have the backing of THE most powerful being is quite good enough for most people to say he's that damn powerful. We don't need to see him destroying a universe to prove so.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
GS... I like you man, and you're a good poster.. but this last post is a bunch of poop. I want you to prove the following please..1. Please prove that the LT that showed up to fight Thanos with the heart wa a M-body. I would like proof of this please, not your speculation on what it was. If it wasn't stated to be an m-body it wasn't an m-body, period. Thanos doing what he did is exponentially greater than anything The Phoenix has ever done. Remember seeing the LT holding Megaverses in his hands.. more impressive than ANYTHING Phoenix has ever done.. Ooo that and being the judge for the all powerful TOAA. If TOAA wants the LT to win.. he will beat any force in marvel with but a gesture.
Only poop if you are unaware of what sources my statements are based on. I don't fantasize, or merely state my unsupported opinion in these debates. You should know that by now come on 😉
LT as stated by Marvel is a conceptual being. That means he is in essence merely a concept, he is not an inherently physical being.
Therefore as stated by Marvel these conceptual beings employ M bodies to act within reality, giving them a physicality which they do not possess themselves:
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
This scene portrays one of the M bodys LT has used in the past.
Heres Reed Richards destroying another one of LT's m bodys. Unless you wish to argue that was LT in his totality? 😖hifty: That'll suit my argument even better 😂
Thanos absorbed a single reality, thats nothing compared to what Jean Greys done, to manipulate all the energy and matter of a reality at an atomic level shows she tapped into a power greater than that contained within said reality. Furthermore she telekinetically wiped out 150 years of timeline, thats a reality over 150 years, not just a universe at a specific state in time. The difference in matter and energy between a reality and reality over 150 years is exponential. Jean Greys feats are greater than Thanos absorbing and emitting that single reality. Absorbing LT's Mbody as well as that reality still doesnt cut it when LT has never displayed a particularly powerful mbody. Reed Richards can wipe it out as shown on panel 😂
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Lastly, your logic that you need some all powerful feats in order to prove you're powerful is illogical. TOAA doesn't have any impressive feats to speak of but we know he is THE most powerful. The LT being second to the TOAA and having the ability to have the backing of THE most powerful being is quite good enough for most people to say he's that damn powerful. We don't need to see him destroying a universe to prove so.
That logic only applies to the supreme being im afraid because its a given that they are supreme.
Given that LT has stated that:
there are limits to how much power hes willing to employ (his "ultimate punishment" when dealing with Korvac)
Given that Mbodys can as stated on panel have varying degrees of power instilled in them
That LT's Mbodys have been overcome on panel by Reed Richards energy canon
then him taking orders directly from TOAA means nothing. Its been shown on panel that he isnt infallible, that he does have limits and that his actions can backfire and fail.
So just to summarize, LT as a conceptual being does actually use Mbodys, these Mbodys despite LT's role and supreme authority have been thwarted, have stated to have limits and are not infallible. Therefore it is completely logical that beings with far greater feats than LT would be able to defeat one of his Mbodys.
Until we see an Mbody display any significant amount of power then for all of his role and authority which is unquestionably supreme, one cant assume that every Mbody of his is going to be supreme and omnipotent.
Originally posted by zopzop
Let's get this out the way right now.Either -
1) that court proceeding consisted of M-body abstractions (Love, Hate, Order, Chaos, Eternity, LT) and non M-body cosmics (Galactus, Stranger, Watcher, Ziran, etc...) and when Warlock swatted them the only "real" non M-body cosmic that was unfazed was Ziran. Which is a nice little feat for the Celestials. This my position.
2) everyone at the trial was an M-body. Which makes the LT snapping his fingers and restoring order a joke, since Warlock only swatted away glorified ventriloquist dummies (M-bodies). This is your position.
Which is it?
It's you. If you go pick up Quasar 37 and actually understood what the Celestials are the you wouldn't be so confused.
1) Quasar showed up to the court trial and was told about M-bodies. He then asked what about beings that have bodies like Galactus, Stranger, and Watcher. But even they sometimes use M-bodies to make an appearance without physically being there. It never specifies that Stranger, Watcher, and Galactus were using M-bodies at the court try. How hard is that to understand?
2) Celestials always use M-bodies. Go read up on the Celestials. Those armors are there M-bodies. How is that not Ziran? Every appearance Ziran makes is using his M-body. That's how Celestials are able to operate outside there universe.
3) If you agree that the IG is greater than all the abstracts then why are you acting as if that attack on the court meant nothing? That attack was no different from what Thanos stomped the abstracts when they fought.
4) If you want to claim that the abstracts were using M-bodies, then LT was using an M-body too. Prove he wasn't. Who ever says LT has to show up either if Galactus and Stranger don't want to show there to self. So basically LT's M-body sat there and shut down that attack when all other abstracts where on the defense or getting blasted.
He's got very few showings doing anything worthwhile....period. The star going nova feat was the best we've seen him do on panel.
Hahaha, with this point let's just agree that you are ignorant of the Tribunal. I'm sure you find that many Marvel characters hold creators of universes in there hand or is told by a being possessing TOAA's power as the top of the cosmic food chain.
Again all talk with nothing shown on panel. We all know at least on of the participants, the Spectre, goes from joke to God, depending on how much authority he gets from his boss. The LT could be the same. You know, since we don't have him doing jack on panel except talk.
Thanks for pointing out your ignorance yet again. The Tribunal isn't the Spectre. Where are you even getting this nonsense of an argument? He his mere presence killed off Zom, a being that required Eternity to imprison. The majority of abstracts don't have the power to even challenge him hence why they never bother.
Why not? We've never seen the LT do what Odin/Seth did in their throw down.
LMAO. Please just stop.
Well it's been retconned. Check the scans GS provided. The most recent explanation is the IG only works in the universe it's native to.
What scan are we talking about? Did some use the gems in another universe and it failed for you to make such a conclusion?
No supposedly Xorn blew the PF apart to the point it thought it was dead and nothing happened to creation. Galactus was supposedly slowly tearing it apart and the universe was dying as a result.See the problem? You probably don't but whatever.
How should it be my problem? The Phoenix Force is one of the most inconsistent of the abstracts.
Originally posted by zopzop
How would they "kill" it? "Kill it" like who? Xorn? Where nothing happens to the universe. Or "kill it" like Galactus, where everything dies with it?
What does it matter? The point is that the Phoenix Force would get stomped. If not outright killed than it'll be shattered into a billion pieces and hide in the White Hot Room like the pathetic entity it is to recover.
This is laughable. The writers brought this up and put it in Reed's mouth because that's what they wanted to convey : PF = Big Bang. What's even funnier is that they weren't dealing with the PF so why bring it up if the statement is just fluff or BS?
They did put it in his mouth. What they've never stated is that being the big bang gives the Force more power or power over the other abstracts. So what if it's the big bang. And Entropy the is collapse of everything in the universe, the opposite of the Big Bang.
Wow just wow. Ok I see what I'm dealing with now. It says it right there plain as day. The first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities. The principalities being the levels of power in the universe. The whole point of the trip was showing the new born omnipotent Kosmos the different layers of power in creation. You can believe what you want.
But you're going to ignore what it says about Eternity and the Tribunal huh? Especially the part about LT being Supreme in the multiverses.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The reason you dont seem so impressed is because you dont analyse the feats and properly think about what achieving them entails and what they mean in the bigger picture.No character in Marvel current continuity has better feats than the Phoenix Force.
Furthermore what you seem to be doing is making a distinction between the universe and the abstracts, as if its the universe AND the abstracts. The abstracts are just universal concepts, they are [B]a part of
the universe, they tap into the universes power. So being within the universe and brushing off attacks from the abstracts is nowhere near as impressive as manipulating the actual physical universe(the totality of the abstracts, life, energy and matter) at the atomic level. As Eternity verifies, M Bodies are nothing compared to their totality. So Thanos could have fought every abstract and hero in the universe and swatted them aside and whilst that may have looked more visually exciting and impressive, feats wise it pales into insignificance compared to Jean Grey manipulating all reality in the palm of her hand.[/B]
No no, I am simply not impressed. Like I said there were some ocassions I was impressed, but never by PF.
Everyone is part of the universe and has its role, even ants, what don't you understand. Conception and part of..., everyone is.
And what are you babbling about. THOTI didn't only absorb Mbody of Eternity, he absorbed all reality (the actual physical universe or what you also say, the totality).
He not only manipulated the life, matter and energy, he completely absorbed everything, all time and space.
GS, you simply don't get it, do you?
And you know what is the most pathetic,... when you try so hard and then Marvel comes and simply says LT is second to TOAA.
You can try whatever you want, but that is it. You do it only to feel better and go ony babbling about feats (how important it is, while you it doesn't help you at all). It doesn't help you, you know, not in this case.
You try to make it something, while it's simple
THOTI is so fay beyond PF, it's ridiculous. This is what you don't get. Hahahhahahaha 😆
Just get over it.
You are pathetic.
Originally posted by Xplosive
No no, I am simply not impressed. Like I said there were some ocassions I was impressed, but never by PF.Everyone is part of the universe and has its role, even ants, what don't you understand. Conception and part of..., everyone is.
And what are you babbling about. THOTI didn't only absorb Mbody of Eternity, he absorbed all reality (the actual physical universe).
He not only manipulated the matter and energy, he completely absorbed everything else, all time and space.GS, you simply don't get it, do you?
And you know what is the most pathetic,... when you try so hard and then Marvel comes and simply says LT is second to TOAA.
You can try whatever you want, but that is it. You do it only to feel better and go ony babbling about feats (how important it is, while you it doesn't help you at all). It doesn't help you, you know, not in this case.
THOTI is so fay beyond PF, it's ridiculous. This is what you don't get. Hahahhahahaha 😆
Just get over it.
You are pathetic.
Xp, i know it can be frustrating when someone doesnt share your viewpoint and you cant convince them but youre too old to be this childish. Remain civil as i have done so with you 👇
I know exactly what Thanos did, i never said he didnt absorb the whole physical universe. If you look at your previous comment that i quoted, you put emphasis on how great it was that Thanos defeated the combined abstracts. I then went on to say that doing so pales into insignificance when the abstracts are just parts of the universe which Jean Grey casually manipulated in her palm.
Thanos may have then absorbed the actual physical universe, however by Jean manipulating the physical universe down to the atomic level in her hand, that demonstrated that she was tapping into energies greater than those contained within the physical universe because she would have to be to be able to manipulate the entire universe down to the atomic level. With that in mind Thanos absorbing the physical universe still doesnt compare to Jeans feat.
Furthermore Jean is just one of the avatars the Force empowers across existence, so if just one of its many many avatars can do that, what does that say for the Phoenix Force in its totality?
Jean Grey has the HOTI beat for feats.
The Phoenix Force stomps it feat wise.
Dont get me wrong im not saying that the Phoenix Force is greater than LT or HOTI ive said that from the beginning, im just saying that feat wise they are beaten by Jean and the Force.
If you were objective and mature you could say you believe that LT and HOTI are actually greater than both however you can admit that feats wise they have yet to verify that on panel. But as yet that is beyond you 😬
I am not fustrated and I apologize, if I seemed insulting, but I only said what I meant.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Xp, i know it can be frustrating when someone doesnt share your viewpoint and you cant convince them but youre too old to be this childish. Remain civil as i have done so with you 👇I know exactly what Thanos did, i never said he didnt absorb the whole physical universe. If you look at your previous comment that i quoted, you put emphasis on how great it was that Thanos defeated the combined abstracts. I then went on to say that doing so pales into insignificance when the abstracts are just parts of the universe which Jean Grey casually manipulated in her palm.
Yes that does pale. But Thanos did more.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thanos may have then absorbed the actual physical universe, however by Jean manipulating the physical universe down to the atomic level in her hand, that demonstrated that she was tapping into energies greater than those contained within the physical universe because she would have to be to be able to manipulate the entire universe down to the atomic level. With that in mind Thanos absorbing the physical universe still doesnt compare to Jeans feat.Furthermore Jean is just one of the avatars the Force empowers across existence, so if just one of its many many avatars can do that, what does that say for the Phoenix Force in its totality?
Jean Grey has the HOTI beat for feats.
This is where I don't agree.
I can accept PF having greater feats than LT. No problem.
But I cannot accept what WPOTC did it's greater feat than what THOTI did.
All you said what she did, yes she did it. Manipulating matter and energy and telekinetically wiping out a reality over 150 years (so reality was even furthermore expanded), but Thanos absorbed whole time and space. There was no time, there was no space, all that matter and energy and time resided in him (all time and space).
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix Force stomps it feat wise.
You can come ''If host did that, what to say about full PF'', but we never seen the full PF. You can say, as PF host have done mroe than Eternity (Mbody), that is how PF could do more than Multi-Eternity.
But we don't know that and we can't be sure that would be the case. It's logical, but we can't be sure.
Originally posted by Xplosive
I am not fustrated and I apologize, if I seemed insulting, but I only said what I meant.Yes that does pale. But Thanos did more.
This is where I don't agree.
I can accept PF having greater feats than LT. No problem.
But I cannot accept what WPOTC did it's greater feat than what THOTI did.
All you said what she did, yes she did it. Manipulating matter and energy and telekinetically wiping out a reality over 150 years (so reality was even furthermore expanded), but Thanos absorbed whole time and space. There was no time, there was no space, all that matter and energy and time resided in him (all time and space).
Youre trying to make his feat sound more impressive than it is. Thanos absorbed the energy and matter of a universe. Thats that. Time and space are concepts that are given meaning by the existence of reality. Thats all.
Thanos absorbing it isnt as great as what Jean did because her feat displayed a greater level of power. To be able to manipulate all of the energy and matter of the universe in its totality right down to the atomic level, Jean must have been wielding greater energies than those contained within said universe otherwise she wouldnt have been able to do it. Therefore Thanos absorbed energy and matter of a smaller level than those Jean employed to manipulate the totality of the universe. Jeans feat was greater.
Originally posted by Xplosive
You can come ''If host did that, what to say about full PF'', but we never seen the full PF. You can say, as PF host have done mroe than Eternity (Mbody), that is how PF could do more than Multi-Eternity.
But we don't know that and we can't be sure that would be the case. It's logical, but we can't be sure.
We dont need to see the full Phoenix Force, we have expressions of its power throughout realities pulling off top tier feats.
You have a host manipulating realities in the palm of her hand with ease and casually destroying timelines.
You have a Phoenix avatar displaying true multiversal power containing the energies of the M'kraan crystal which on panel destroyed and re-created the previous multiverse.
Therefore the Phoenix Force itself being able to simultaneously be the energies of Big Bangs, and power avatars to pull off universal and multiversal feats proves feat wise so far its pretty much unbelievable.
This isnt about who's more powerful, Phoenix or LT or HOTI. This is purely about feats and conclusively the Phoenix Force has better feats than LT or HOTI.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre trying to make his feat sound more impressive than it is. Thanos absorbed the energy and matter of a universe. Thats that. Time and space are concepts that are given meaning by the existence of reality. Thats all.Thanos absorbing it isnt as great as what Jean did because her feat displayed a greater level of power. To be able to manipulate all of the energy and matter of the universe in its totality right down to the atomic level, Jean must have been wielding greater energies than those contained within said universe otherwise she wouldnt have been able to do it. Therefore Thanos absorbed energy and matter of a smaller level than those Jean employed to manipulate the totality of the universe. Jeans feat was greater.
THOTI feat was undeniable greater.
Still, PF was always among top tiers.
Originally posted by Xplosive
THOTI feat was undeniable greater.Still, PF was always among top tiers.
Youre not explaining how its greater. Absorbing a reality requires less power than materializing and manipulating that same realitys very atoms in the palm of your hand. To do so Jean required more power than that reality was composed of. With that in mind Thanos absorbing that reality which is composed of less energies than Jean wields, substantially less given how easily she did it means that his feat just wasnt as great. Simple.
Yes you can believe that HOTI is the greater power in Marvel, thats not what im arguing against, im just saying that feat is not the top feat in Marvel. Even greater than Jeans manipulation of 616 was the containing of the M'kraans power, which is conclusively greater than either feat. It is how it is.
