Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Check out Uncanny Xmen 137 where the watcher says that Jean is one with a force second only to that of the creator. Please understand this KG. You seem to have the original 1986 retcon too firmly placed in your head which is such a shame. That retcon has been scrapped!! Marvel are now going along with their original idea that the Phoenix Force is an incarnation of the creator in our plane of existence.The Phoenix avatars are needed as doctors of the universe to carry out the creators work within our plane of existence. See the Phoenix as a representation not a cosmic being as the 86 retcon made it to be. That retcon has been the idea being pushed forward by marvels writers for most of the amount of time the phoenix entity has even existed in their comics, so the retcons ideas are so firmly placed in the minds of many comic readers. Forget alllll about it. The original idea has been reverted to.
If you say so I won't argue with you
I don't read X-men comics (phonix) so I don’t know about retcon or whatever
I will read that one and get back to you.
Is that after retcon(Uncanny Xmen 137)?
Uncanny xmen 137 is before the retcon. If you pick up Essential Xmen vol 1 and 2 you will get the whole picture about the Phoenix right from the beginning. Its worth it. Then in 86 in a FF comic i believe Jean Grey was discovered and the retcon began in earnest. Making out that dark phoenix wasnt Jean but it was the phoenix force taking on Jeans form gone mad. Its so confusing. I could copy and paste this argument i put on a previous thread which explains everything if u want? It will take you 5 mins to read but all your questions will be answered
Pheonix is not higher then Eternity and Death is not either Death has been pushed around by the In-betweener who is not as powerful as Lord Chaos and Master Order also She always usually has someone else do Her job She has also been beaten by the Grandmaster thus the Elders Of The Universe are banned from Deaths realm, also the PF has been defeated as well by The unreconned Beyonder as well as the Goblin Force for those of you who will say the original Beyonder dont count the Goblin Force drained Galactus then ate the power of the PH but was stopped only by The Celestials in Mutant X She has also been stopped by Set in a What If oh and What If's should count they are part of other realties that do exist some of those realities have interacted with this one and Goblin Force was not a What If.
Originally posted by Mider
Pheonix is not higher then Eternity and Death is not either Death has been pushed around by the In-betweener who is not as powerful as Lord Chaos and Master Order also She always usually has someone else do Her job She has also been beaten by the Grandmaster thus the Elders Of The Universe are banned from Deaths realm, also the PF has been defeated as well by The unreconned Beyonder as well as the Goblin Force for those of you who will say the original Beyonder dont count the Goblin Force drained Galactus then ate the power of the PH but was stopped only by The Celestials in Mutant X She has also been stopped by Set in a What If oh and What If's should count they are part of other realties that do exist some of those realities have interacted with this one and Goblin Force was not a What If.
Mider i dont mean to be rude but after arguing on this thread for hours and getting somewhere, only to hav some1 who obviously hasnt read the thread to come on post garbage that is made redundant by many peoples posts on this thread its understandable if i hav little patience. Im not going to counter what you said cos anyone can see why your post hasnt changed anything by reading the thread. I suggest you do the same and see how silly you can make yourself look by contributing to a thread b4 reading previous posts
To KgKg:The image you posted comes from what if 14,and its not very good for stating your case.Jean had been lobotomized by the sh'iar,and lost his power.Much later the x-men were called by the Sh'iar to help them,and suddenly Jean re-transformed into Phoenix. Galactus was weak,but this is also true for the phoenix.In the original saga her power grew exponentially with time,and she had just transformed.Yet she made Galactus flee.Later she became Dark Phoenix,and,after killing Cyclops,her human part was completely overwhelmed by the firebird,which expanded out of control and consumed the entire Universe in the last panel of the story.
The first time Galactus fought Rachel-Phoenix he was not weak at all.He went to earth to wrestle the phoenix from her,he was well prepared and much much taller than usual,so big that the excalibur lighthouse seemed a small miniature in comparison(and generally his size is an indicator of his power level) while Rachel was acceding only a small fraction of the power of the Phoenix (she didnt really draw on the Phoenix until the battle with Necrom).
Later yes,Galactus was weak,but was also totally outclassed.If you look at the comic you see that his shots have no effect whatsoever:they dont even move Phoenix,while he is in tatters,with energy leaking from his armour.
In X-Men Forever 3 Death shows Jean the Abstracts and says that they were afraid of her,because when she became Phoenix she was a legitimate threat for the fabric of reality.In x-men forever 6 Eternity itself said that the Phoenix is the Force of Resurrection,that will allow a new universe to be born when this one dies.He said that cyclically the universe is destroyed and reborn through the phoenix,and in the next Universe there will be new incarnations of the abstracts.In fact the Stranger wanted to make Jean access the Phoenix Force in order the collapse reality and become the supreme being of the next universe.
In Excalibur 25 Death says that the Phoenix is the first spark that ignited creation and the fire that will one day consume it,a destruction which will clean the table for a new creation.Later in Excalibur Necrom wanted to take the power of the Phoenix to rule the multiverse;and it was revealed that Merlin created the Otherworld energy matrix , and anchored a version of the Excalibur Lighthouse across all realities thanks to the energy of the Phoenix (so the Phoenix is a multiversal force,while Eternity is only the incarnation of the 616 Universe).
And it should not be forgotten that the phoenix is tied to the M'Krann Crystal,which,as explained in the Age of Apocalypse,has the power to istantly reboot the Multiverse.The very reason why the AoA timeline should have been cancelled was that without Jean/phoenix noone would have repaired the Crystal and it would have destroyed every reality in existence.While the new AoA doesnt explains the details,it pretty much says that is Jean that allowed that reality to continue to exist.During the original Secret Wars Crossovers the Beyonder noticed Rachel and sad that it was the only being in the Universe with the potential to be his equal:he gave her part of his power and played with her.In the end he took his power back,but he realized that what came back was much more than what he originally gave her:the comic says that he's unable to stop her,and that he experienced much more than what could have ever imagined or could possibly whitstand :the totality of life in all its forms and its glory. In Uxm 203 the Beyonder,which at the time (pre-Retcon) was toying with the big powers of the Marvel Universe,falls to the ground in shock.
There are plenty of instances in x-men related comics in which the phoenix is described at this level of power.
Anyway,when Jean/Phoenix is first seen in the White Hot Room in classic x-men 43 she sees a tiny pinprick of light looks closer and discovers it is the Universe.She then talks with Death,who is building a skyscraper with room for every civilization's idea of the afterlife:every hell,heaven or death realm is contained in it.Death says that she's an avatar of the Phoenix and exists outside the building.Later in NxM 154 Morrison has Jean as White Phoenix of the Crown reform and hold an Universe in her hands,while another Phoenix says that he would have just let that Universe die.
The White Hot Room is also called an hospital for "baby universes" and "broken universes".
At least in the WHR the phoenix avatars seem much above the single universes:and the avatars are only aspects of the force.
To Mider:an avatar can be defeated or killed (only to resurrect later on,as good phoenixes do) expecially when he has accomplished its main task.Jean was killed by Magneto in Nxm 150.But the force itself cannot.
When Jean had to repair the M'Krann Crystal she became much more powerful than before,because it was needed;later her power decreased.Even Dark Phoenix said that her power was nothing compared to what she had when she repaired the M'Krann Crystal.
Anyway,the "force" can act in our universe only through avatars,and all the phoenix manifestations we have seen are now,after Endsong,explained as only shards of the original phoenix "created" by Jean Grey.
I've read all the posts so far...I still would never put PF > LT but I'm starting to read some of the new X-Men stuff, and also listened to everything on this thread, and I'd have it HOTU, LT, IG, PF, Abstracts/Galactus, etc. I'd possibly put PF above IG, but that's it. I've actually thought of PF as being above Galactus for a while now...this just confirms it.
Some interesting discussion...can't add anything to it (haven't read enough) but it was fun to read.
-DM
GalacticStorm i understand you like the character but i wasnt making up my post what i put was all facts im sorry that you dont like those facts but thats just the way it is Pheonix has been defeated before by entities lower then Eternity so what do you want me to do about it lie? And i didnt put any garbage thanks
markolin's post firms my theory that in purpose and power, jean grey and spectre are the same being of the different universes.
which would make the phoenix force the presence.
(note: i realize that my above theory is a leap, and i'm not trying to use it as an argument or stating it as true. it's just what i think)