Football (Soccer)

Started by Alpha Centauri527 pages

Originally posted by Deano
your right, it isnt illegal.

So here's another question

So when did running beside a man, trying to get the ball, fails, and then kicks out at the player in anger, become legal?

e.g 'the pizzaro tackle'

You're saying "Here's an example of a foul, when did it become legal?". I'm not saying the man doesn't get fouled. Less able players will always do that, I'm just saying that we cannot put his inability to beat men with the ball down to "Oh, he always gets fouled.".

It wasn't happening in the Roma game, he just kept diving.

Originally posted by Deano
The descisions go for him because he is constantly being fouled.

Fouled in what sense? The ref blows the whistle? Yes. Not once did he get badly tackled, or fouled against Roma. He just kept getting pressured and then falling over.

It happens a lot, he does it often. Not saying he doesn't get fouled often, but that's not why he can't beat men. You can't say "He rides tackles great.", and then say he's always getting tripped over.

Originally posted by Deano
i never said he was one of the best players. i was merely pointing out that he wasnt 'shit', whatever your definition of that word is.

Well that turned out to be wrong didn't it? The man's day in the Sun (And the Sun, our star) has fizzled out faster Diego Forlan's run at ManYoo.

Originally posted by Deano
He does more than score though. His quickness in counter attacks brings much to the side, and plus his assists to other players are high. He brings style and pace to a manchester united side who look an half decent without him. He is an inspiration for them. You have to look at what effect he has on the team and not just on a individual level

Like I said, new Gerrard. "He's an inspiration.". Let begin the years of praising him for something we cannot see, but we're sure he's doing.

So basically, he brings pace, stepovers and a great ability to score goals? Great. Never denied he has pace and an ability to score goals. I've denied he is one of the best overall players in the world, cos he's simply not that good. He's a one-trick pony (Literally), but it's just a very effective trick.

Originally posted by Deano
i dont get what you mean when you say the new rooney or gerrard. its nto as if they have stopped playing class. gerrard and rooney have had excellent seasons again.

See what I mean? Just...never ends. It genuinely doesn't end.

Gerrard has had an excellent season? Rooney? Rooney was on a goal drought until the other day, and what has Gerrard done? "Inspiration"? Point proven.

Originally posted by Deano
Ronaldo has done more that what is asked of him this season, and then some. What has ronaldo failed to do may i ask?

Become one of the best players in the world, but then I never expected that of him.

-AC

Originally posted by Raoul
uhuh

i disagree.

I'm a better right-back than Brown.

Juande Ramos is a better right-back than Brown.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I'm a better right-back than Brown.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Juande Ramos is a better right-back than Brown.

-AC

barker

Pat Rice is a better right-back than Brown.

(Yes, I know...)

I dont know why Ferguson spent all that money in the summer without getting a right back.

Probably because he's a f*cking Scottish wank-face wanker.

Or something less severe and insulting.

oooo....scandalous...did he touch you when you were a boy?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
[B]You're saying "Here's an example of a foul, when did it become legal?". I'm not saying the man doesn't get fouled. Less able players will always do that, I'm just saying that we cannot put his inability to beat men with the ball down to "Oh, he always gets fouled.".

It wasn't happening in the Roma game, he just kept diving.

but he can beat men though. he is a winger, thats what he does.

Fouled in what sense? The ref blows the whistle? Yes. Not once did he get badly tackled, or fouled against Roma. He just kept getting pressured and then falling over.

he didnt get badly tackled but he was being deliberatly obstructed. Another example from the game is mexes.. he got a yellow card by tackling ronaldo. he knew that if he didnt bring him down, he would of been eating dust.

It happens a lot, he does it often. Not saying he doesn't get fouled often, but that's not why he can't beat men. You can't say "He rides tackles great.", and then say he's always getting tripped over.

Back to this again really..he can beat men, alot more than most wingers. he just obviously doesnt beat them enough for your liking.

Well that turned out to be wrong didn't it? The man's day in the Sun (And the Sun, our star) has fizzled out faster Diego Forlan's run at ManYoo.

it didnt turn out to be wrong. he isnt shit. he scores almost every time he plays if rafa gives him a chance. if you dont play you dont score.

Like I said, new Gerrard. "He's an inspiration.". Let begin the years of praising him for something we cannot see, but we're sure he's doing.

so whats messi then? the new ronaldinho? ronaldinho's stardom and hype has dropped and the attention is now on messi.

So basically, he brings pace, stepovers and a great ability to score goals? Great. Never denied he has pace and an ability to score goals. I've denied he is one of the best overall players in the world, cos he's simply not that good. He's a one-trick pony (Literally), but it's just a very effective trick.

well i would say he is one of the best players in the world at this time. i wouldnt want another winger in my team at this time. we'll see who gets world player of year wont we.

See what I mean? Just...never ends. It genuinely doesn't end.

Gerrard has had an excellent season? Rooney? Rooney was on a goal drought until the other day, and what has Gerrard done? "Inspiration"? Point proven.

so rooney doesnt score so therefore he is incapable of having a great season? rooney has been the main thrust in uniteds title challenge, the goals have been low but he has never been a natural goalscorer. you have to look at the overall contribution he gives to the team. its outstanding.

gerrard has been fantastic this season. his and torres have formed a superb partnership. if only the rest of the team contributes more in the league.

Become one of the best players in the world, but then I never expected that of him.

he already is one of the best, and at 23 too. not bad really

Originally posted by Deano
but he can beat men though. he is a winger, thats what he does.

Exactly, he does what a winger should do. Lots of wingers do what a winger should do. How does this make him the best player in the Prem?

Originally posted by Deano
he didnt get badly tackled but he was being deliberatly obstructed. Another example from the game is mexes.. he got a yellow card by tackling ronaldo. he knew that if he didnt bring him down, he would of been eating dust.

He wasn't being obstructed. So many times their runs were parallel, it wasn't unfair barging, you're just reaching.

Originally posted by Deano
Back to this again really..he can beat men, alot more than most wingers. he just obviously doesnt beat them enough for your liking.

He doesn't beat them enough to get the praise he does. Your point of view is obviously warped, because the video YOU feel is an example of him "beating MEN" fantastically with skill, is him beating ONE man in a very standard way for a player with ANY skill, and then tripping over. So if that is the kind of play you are exaggerating into "beating men fantastically, with skill.", then we're on different wavelengths. I consider what Messi did to be beating men fantastically, with skill.

For one, he beat many men. Two, he used exceptional skill. Not anybody could do that. Derbyshire has done what Ronaldo did in that video, for Blackburn. That's what's expected of a player, it's not exceptional.

Originally posted by Deano
it didnt turn out to be wrong. he isnt shit. he scores almost every time he plays if rafa gives him a chance. if you dont play you dont score.

He is shit, man. We're never going to agree, though.

Originally posted by Deano
so whats messi then? the new ronaldinho? ronaldinho's stardom and hype has dropped and the attention is now on messi.

What are you ON about? Messi has earned and lived up to every bit of his hype. Ronaldo is on his way to being the most overrated player on Earth, because people are taking what he is admittedly good at, exaggerating it, and somehow extracting things from every game he plays. Even if he does nothing at all.

Like Gerrard, Ronaldo is reaching the point of not having to do anything for people to act like he did everything.

Originally posted by Deano
well i would say he is one of the best players in the world at this time. i wouldnt want another winger in my team at this time. we'll see who gets world player of year wont we.

So what? That just means certain people agree, it doesn't make it fact.

Originally posted by Deano
so rooney doesnt score so therefore he is incapable of having a great season? rooney has been the main thrust in uniteds title challenge, the goals have been low but he has never been a natural goalscorer. you have to look at the overall contribution he gives to the team. its outstanding.

gerrard has been fantastic this season. his and torres have formed a superb partnership. if only the rest of the team contributes more in the league.

Rooney hasn't been exceptional without the goals, though. He's been good, just not amazing. That's why he hasn't got many goals, because he hasn't been playing well enough to get them himself, as he does when he's on form.

You keep saying "Gerrard has been fantastic.", how? You just keep saying it.

Originally posted by Deano
he already is one of the best, and at 23 too. not bad really

He's not, in my opinion. So unless you can prove it as much a fact as our bodies need blood to live, then stop putting it across as such.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Phat J, honestly, I wasn't trying to insult you. I just think it's remarkably childish to make the definitive claim of "I've had enough." or whatever it was you said (And have said SO many times about me), yet remain here to have a pop. Either don't address me, or do. You've said it many times before during our encounters on KMC. The hip hop thread for one.

You are the one who got pissed off and decided the debate was no longer something you wished to partake in without using abuse.

I've called you names? The most I've said besides "You're getting stressed." (Fact) was that I've called you is a poser. You've said much more, much worse.

I'm not saying he can't do shit, I'm saying he can't do what people here are claiming he can do.

When you sell it you lose credibility and sympathy, that's how it goes. I felt the same about Jose Antonio Reyes when he played for Arsenal. He did nothing but slow us down. He went from getting fouled a lot to faking it a lot.

Did I? I said they've obviously done enough, technically, to be where they are, I just don't think they have played the best football that would earn them THAT side of the "They deserved it." claim.

You were the one who freaked out because I was frustrating you. Not me.

The funny part is, Fabregas says "We are hated.", Krunk'd posts that article, mocking him. Just proves his point. People do have bias toward Arsenal. Not as bad as some Arsenal fans would claim, but the decisions that go against them are often game changing. You can't deny that, and you can't deny it's often.

Then I proved my point with examples and you hid behind your imagined idea of how United demolish the teams they play, rather than accepting the possibility of what I was suggesting.

The facts are there. When teams focus on defending, Man Utd either win with a scrappy goal, or don't win at all. Tottenham, A.C. Milan (Who gave a masterclass on how to make Ronaldo nothing more than an extra man), Derby, Arsenal, Man City, West Ham.

Where did I say "Every game"? Don't try to make my claims seem ridiculous just so you've got something to counter.

My only argument was, there are players who do that, do it more often and have potential to become better at doing it. Ronaldo doesn't, as proven in Deano's video. He goes over at the slightest touch.

I was serious. You're in no position to call people out on judging players' ability Mr. "Park is as good as Rosicky".

Hleb, for me.

-AC [/B]


i really dont know what you're talking about man. yes, a year ago in a different thread on a completely different topic, i said id had enough because there was no getting through to you.

i may have called you a retard, but i didnt ignore the argument we were having and just call you a retard, which is basically what you did. being angry on the internet is all down to interpretation i guess. it was more i thought you were being retard so i called you a retard.

dont take it so literally. what is the point of this sentence?

"im bringing up arguments, you're calling me names. " i can tell you its not the word names. its the fact you're ignoring what im saying and talking about how angry i apparently am then thinking you've settled the argument.

read the sentence again. you misunderstood what i said.

"you're saying he cant do shit, im bring up examples of him doing it."

shit in that sentence is a synonym for things.

ronaldo still gets fouled all the time, because he gets his foot out of the way and unfortunately makes it dramatic doesnt mean it isnt happening. he went from getting fouled a lot to getting fouled even more, but getting out of the way and selling it to the referee.

yes, you did. ill even show it to you. this is being frustrated that arsenal had a poor run of games and looking for reasons to take credit away from manchester united because it didnt happen to them.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

This is a case, not of how well they played, but how badly teams played against them. Newcastle want to give Arsenal the game of their lives, but then it's 6-0 and 5-0 against Man Utd. I've heard Man Utd fans say it, too. Someone said it to me today: "Teams make themselves go to pieces, we don't have to.". Villa can be a remarkably tenacious team, but as soon as they are faced with the reputation of Ronaldo and such, they destroy THEMSELVES. It wasn't a great Villa defense being taken apart by Man Utd, it was a shambolic defense being exposed.

Man Utd do not destroy defenses, defenses destroy themselves against Man Utd. Any defense that hasn't crumbled in the face of the rep, not the team, has given Man Utd serious issues. Derby, Lyon, Arsenal, Tottenham, Man City etc.

Ronaldo has been a massively prolific scorer, an effective player, but his goal tally does not reflect his ability as a player. He is scoring way more than he should. He is as clinical as his is because is is allowed to be. At the end of the day, Man Utd are likely going to win the league because they've gotten a majority of the right results, and who's gonna take that away? Nobody. I just feel like there is more to this than people are seeing.

Most of Man Utd's games have proven that. They'll likely win the league, I can admit that. I think Arsenal deserved it, but they didn't end up earning it for one reason or another (I could go into the amount of screwjob decisions, but it won't change anything). Let's just not overlook the way Man Utd have won their games, if we're going to admit they've won the league.

see man, thats a bit of bullshit right there. have some things gone uniteds way this season? yes. but thats what happens when you have success, there are moments along the way where things just go your way. do you think arsenal didnt have luck on their side when they went the whole year without being beaten? thats just the way it goes man.

once again, dont know where you're getting the freaked out from.

i read that article, it was pretty funny. people hate successful teams. he thinks hes the first person to be under the spotlight, thats just what happens when your successful. people want to see you kicked off the throne. everyone hates man united from what i understand in england. yeah, the media loves them, but regular people dont. i have never denied things have gone against them. ive been bringing it up all along actually.

you didnt prove shit, i admitted first off that it had happened a couple times this season, for instance against newcastle. i just said that it didnt happen against aston villa.

dude, you said watched every game in la liga this year, which is ridiculous, so i exaggerated and said every game ever played.

this is what you do, you pick something to talk about, then ignore the point that i made. no one ever said ronaldo was the best in the world at dribbling past players, you just said he couldnt do it at which point i brought up an example of him doing it. which you also ignored.

i dont really rate rosicky, but thats just me. he works well in arsenals system though. but hey, once again, ignore what i said and talk about some shit that makes me look bad.

and about ronaldo not fetting fouled once in the roma game, did you watch it? he probably won 6 or 7 freekicks, maybe more, and id say half of them were actual fouls, the others he was selling.

brown has played pretty well this season. hes not the best in the world or anything, but hes done his job well enough. how can you call him shit when hes been a solid and consistent part of a defence thats conceded only 15 league goals all season?

Originally posted by Phat J
i really dont know what you're talking about man. yes, a year ago in a different thread on a completely different topic, i said id had enough because there was no getting through to you.

i may have called you a retard, but i didnt ignore the argument we were having and just call you a retard, which is basically what you did. being angry on the internet is all down to interpretation i guess. it was more i thought you were being retard so i called you a retard.

You resorted to saying such things as:

"You f*cking retard.", "Suck a fart out of Arsene Wenger's ass.", "You have no life." (Why personal attack?) and "You're an idiot.".

You didn't deserve to be paid attention to until you calmed yourself down, so if you've calmed yourself down, I will allow our discussion about football to continue.

dont take it so literally. what is the point of this sentence?

Originally posted by Phat J
its the fact you're ignoring what im saying and talking about how angry i apparently am then thinking you've settled the argument.

read the sentence again. you misunderstood what i said.

Because when all you're doing is just telling me I'm wrong by using abuse, how much of my attention do you feel you deserve? Honestly? Even before you snapped, I was addressing and countering your arguments, that's precisely why you snapped.

Originally posted by Phat J
shit in that sentence is a synonym for things.

I assumed you were accusing me of saying he cannot do anything. Never did I say that. Are you weaselling a point here?

Originally posted by Phat J
ronaldo still gets fouled all the time, because he gets his foot out of the way and unfortunately makes it dramatic doesnt mean it isnt happening. he went from getting fouled a lot to getting fouled even more, but getting out of the way and selling it to the referee.

Then he doesn't deserve the credit, because it's not necessarily fouls from the opponent. Nobody deserves to have skill countered with violence, not a ManYoo player, not a Spurs player, not an Arsenal player, no player. However, when you are suggesting someone who has you figured out is using violent conduct to stop you, and he isn't, you are a faker. Ronaldo is playing it up, and he has the advantage now because Fergie is on his period. He's comparing Ronaldo getting pressured and falling over to Eduardo having his leg snapped.

Originally posted by Phat J
yes, you did. ill even show it to you. this is being frustrated that arsenal had a poor run of games and looking for reasons to take credit away from manchester united because it didnt happen to them.

see man, thats a bit of bullshit right there. have some things gone uniteds way this season? yes. but thats what happens when you have success, there are moments along the way where things just go your way. do you think arsenal didnt have luck on their side when they went the whole year without being beaten? thats just the way it goes man.

That was me explaining that there is more to United's season that people are not seeing, and they are getting undue credit for certain things. They're top because they have done enough to be top, Arsenal had a poor run of DECISIONS, yes, it sucks. Even if you remove Arsenal from existence, my point still remains. Teams still go to pieces under ManYoo's reputation and often destroy themselves from within. ManYoo don't destroy defenses so much as defenses destroy themselves. As proven by teams who've given them a hard time and teams who haven't.

My other point was that Ronaldo's goal tally doesn't truly reflect his ability, because of the aforementioned point.

So you can indeed take it how you want it, and you will, because it will make you feel like there's a loophole in my point; bias as an Arsenal supporter. My point stands even if Arsenal didn't exist.

Arsenal went the whole year without being beaten because they had one of the most destructive sides in the history of the league, where as ManYoo have strong players here and there, Arsenal had top quality in every position. ManYoo don't.

Originally posted by Phat J
once again, dont know where you're getting the freaked out from.

The barrage of personal attacks, probably.

Originally posted by Phat J
i read that article, it was pretty funny. people hate successful teams. he thinks hes the first person to be under the spotlight, thats just what happens when your successful. people want to see you kicked off the throne. everyone hates man united from what i understand in england. yeah, the media loves them, but regular people dont. i have never denied things have gone against them. ive been bringing it up all along actually.

People hate ManYoo because the media hype them up and treat them as untouchables. You think teams are not mentally affected by this? You'd think ManYoo had 11 Peles on the team by the way some of the media talk.

Originally posted by Phat J
you didnt prove shit, i admitted first off that it had happened a couple times this season, for instance against newcastle. i just said that it didnt happen against aston villa.

And I proved that it did, to which you just kept telling me what you wish had happened.

Originally posted by Phat J
dude, you said watched every game in la liga this year, which is ridiculous, so i exaggerated and said every game ever played.

Every game televised, I thought that was implicit. It's usually all the big teams, so it would still be totally relevant to what we've discussed (As the players we're comparing are big team players; Kaka', Messi etc).

Originally posted by Phat J
this is what you do, you pick something to talk about, then ignore the point that i made. no one ever said ronaldo was the best in the world at dribbling past players, you just said he couldnt do it at which point i brought up an example of him doing it. which you also ignored.

I didn't ignore it, I acknowledged it. What he did against Fulham (Wow!) is totally different to the kind of player and the kind of ability I am referring to. He could never do what players like Messi have done. Thus proving the point that he doesn't have enough overall attributes to be considered one of the world's overall best players. Goalscorers? Sure. Effective players? Sure. Overall ability? No.

Originally posted by Phat J
i dont really rate rosicky, but thats just me. he works well in arsenals system though. but hey, once again, ignore what i said and talk about some shit that makes me look bad.

You saying Park is as good as Rosicky is what makes you look bad, I don't have to do much. Then you have the nerve to claim you know about football. Park is a jobber.

Originally posted by Phat J
and about ronaldo not fetting fouled once in the roma game, did you watch it? he probably won 6 or 7 freekicks, maybe more, and id say half of them were actual fouls, the others he was selling.

Why cite winning free kicks as proof of a foul? He's an actor, he goes over at the first sign of a breeze. He wins free kicks because it's the closest he can sensibly get to stamping his foot and saying "Stop the game, I am Ronaldo, I demand a free kick, because that's something I'm good at...in the event I can't beat my marker.".

Originally posted by Phat J
brown has played pretty well this season. hes not the best in the world or anything, but hes done his job well enough. how can you call him shit when hes been a solid and consistent part of a defence thats conceded only 15 league goals all season?

Because that's down to Vidic and Ferdinand.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
[B]Exactly, he does what a winger should do. Lots of wingers do what a winger should do. How does this make him the best player in the Prem?

i never said that alone makes him the best player in the prem. im saying its one of his great attributes that contribute to him being the best player.

He wasn't being obstructed. So many times their runs were parallel, it wasn't unfair barging, you're just reaching.

most of it was unfair barging. i didnt say all.

if you mark anyone aggressivly enough, its difficult to play your normal game.

http://en.lionelmessi.org/index.php?itemid=581
same thing happens to messi here see

He doesn't beat them enough to get the praise he does. Your point of view is obviously warped, because the video YOU feel is an example of him "beating MEN" fantastically with skill, is him beating ONE man in a very standard way for a player with ANY skill, and then tripping over.

here you go again. he was tripped over. he didnt trip over. and that is one of tons of videos by the way. Snd he doesnt get praise simply by beating players, he gets the praise from the other attributes he has, as i said before.

So if that is the kind of play you are exaggerating into "beating men fantastically, with skill.", then we're on different wavelengths. I consider what Messi did to be beating men fantastically, with skill.

it was fantastic by messi. didnt i say that messi is better at beating men than ronaldo?

For one, he beat many men. Two, he used exceptional skill. Not anybody could do that. Derbyshire has done what Ronaldo did in that video, for Blackburn. That's what's expected of a player, it's not exceptional.

yes its whats expected of a certain type of player. some do it good, some do it great while others are simply magic.

He is shit, man. We're never going to agree, though

probably not

What are you ON about? Messi has earned and lived up to every bit of his hype. Ronaldo is on his way to being the most overrated player on Earth, because people are taking what he is admittedly good at, exaggerating it, and somehow extracting things from every game he plays. Even if he does nothing at all.

ronaldo has lived up to his hype. he is the premierships top scorer and manchester uniteds best player most of the time. he is simple unstoppable at the moment. what do you want him to do..fly?

you think he is overhyped. it doesnt make it so.

Like Gerrard, Ronaldo is reaching the point of not having to do anything for people to act like he did everything.

i disagree. i think you should actually watch a man united game.

So what? That just means certain people agree, it doesn't make it fact.

it doesnt make it fact no. but if he does win world player of the year then he must of done more than just be an overated diver.

Rooney hasn't been exceptional without the goals, though. He's been good, just not amazing. That's why he hasn't got many goals, because he hasn't been playing well enough to get them himself, as he does when he's on form.

without him, united look simply duller. he does need to score more goals though.

You keep saying "Gerrard has been fantastic.", how? You just keep saying it.

if you cant see it with your own eyes, me telling you aint gonna convince you much

He's not, in my opinion. So unless you can prove it as much a fact as our bodies need blood to live, then stop putting it across as such.

im not here to prove it, just to give my opinion.

Originally posted by Deano
i never said that alone makes him the best player in the prem. im saying its one of his great attributes that contribute to him being the best player.

What people confuse is the comparison of how good he does these things.

Great winger? Yes. Great goalscorer? Yes. Then people go on and act like everything else he does is as great as what he's best at, and he's simply not that good.

Originally posted by Deano
most of it was unfair barging. i didnt say all.

But it wasn't.

Originally posted by Deano
if you mark anyone aggressivly enough, its difficult to play your normal game.

http://en.lionelmessi.org/index.php?itemid=581
same thing happens to messi here see

Of course, I'm not saying everyone is immune to defenders (Except maybe Barcelona-era Ronaldo). I'm saying that there are players way more equipped to be called an overall best player than Ronaldo, because of what they CAN do.

Messi does not need to be unmarked or loosely marked. He CAN do what he does best when there are defenders smothering him. There is no evidence to suggest Ronaldo can, and to me, it's the ability to pull out such magical, naturally talented moments of awe that makes someone a truly great player.

For me, Ronaldo hasn't done that. He's just produced moments of a very high calibre football player, but nothing that's out of the ordinary.

Originally posted by Deano
here you go again. he was tripped over. he didnt trip over. and that is one of tons of videos by the way. Snd he doesnt get praise simply by beating players, he gets the praise from the other attributes he has, as i said before.

Exactly. If you wanna praise him for being able to beat people to the ball and make himself useful, I'll agree. If you wanna argue that he can take a good free kick, fine. If you wanna argue that he is a goalscoring threat, we will agree.

If you're gonna tell me he is one of the top five best overall players on the planet because he's essentially a very good nuisance, I won't agree.

Originally posted by Deano
yes its whats expected of a certain type of player. some do it good, some do it great while others are simply magic.

And Ronaldo doesn't do it magic, he does it great. He is like Rooney, to me. Extremely good on top form, but I don't ever think they produce moments of utter magic like a Zidane, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Messi, Batistuta etc. They're just really, really good.

Originally posted by Deano
probably not

Why don't you get him signed to Wolves?

Originally posted by Deano
ronaldo has lived up to his hype. he is the premierships top scorer and manchester uniteds best player most of the time. he is simple unstoppable at the moment. what do you want him to do..fly?

See, this is what I mean. Unstoppable? He wasn't unstoppable against many teams in his career. A.C. Milan turned him into a ballboy, he didn't do anything against Roma besides a 45 yard unmarked run that ended, ADMITTEDLY, in a headed goal of epic proportions. The reason he celebrated so vehemently against Derby when he turned in that off the shin ricochet was because he was, in fact, being stopped. He couldn't find the goal.

He's not unstoppable. Henry was unstoppable in his prime, Ronaldo was, Adriano was, Maradona was, Messi will be. Ronaldo isn't.

Originally posted by Deano
you think he is overhyped. it doesnt make it so.

No, him being overhyped is what makes it so. You watch the matches, how are you going to tell me he's not overrated, as good as he is? The newspapers, media and commentary teams more or less jerk themselves off the minute he walks onto the pitch.

Originally posted by Deano
i disagree. i think you should actually watch a man united game.

I watch the Man Utd games, that's the difference. You watch Cristiano Ronaldo with rose-tinted glasses.

Originally posted by Deano
it doesnt make it fact no. but if he does win world player of the year then he must of done more than just be an overated diver.

World player of the year awards don't mean much no matter who wins them. The fact is, though, when others have won it, they won it by doing better things than Ronaldo did. Ronaldo's form now is not comparable to Ronaldinho's when he won it.

Originally posted by Deano
if you cant see it with your own eyes, me telling you aint gonna convince you much

As suspected.

Originally posted by Deano
im not here to prove it, just to give my opinion.

So long as you recognise it as your opinion, we'll have no serious dead-ends in this debate.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
[B]What people confuse is the comparison of how good he does these things.

Great winger? Yes. Great goalscorer? Yes. Then people go on and act like everything else he does is as great as what he's best at, and he's simply not that good.

if he is a great winger and great goalscorer, then what else is there for him to do?

But it wasn't.

We have seen different things then

Of course, I'm not saying everyone is immune to defenders (Except maybe Barcelona-era Ronaldo). I'm saying that there are players way more equipped to be called an overall best player than Ronaldo, because of what they CAN do.

There probably are players more equipped. Very few.

Messi does not need to be unmarked or loosely marked. He CAN do what he does best when there are defenders smothering him. There is no evidence to suggest Ronaldo can.

there is plenty of evidence. i recall one wigan game in particular, bullard and co was trying to mark ronaldo all game but ronaldo tore him and wigan apart. He coped with the pressure. Admitedly some games the man marking can put him off his game but then its like that for everyone..uincluding messi.

and to me, it's the ability to pull out such magical, naturally talented moments of awe that makes someone a truly great player.

you mean like ronaldos backheel the other week? Look, im not trying to compare him to maradona or ronaldinho yet..im merely pointing out that he is having a fantastic season and that he is no where near overrated. He was the best player at the world cup and has had to brilliant seasons since then at united. He keeps getting better and he is only 23. Not even near his prime.

For me, Ronaldo hasn't done that. He's just produced moments of a very high calibre football player, but nothing that's out of the ordinary.

Thats rubbish to me. He has done way more than produce high calibre football. If you are calling ronaldo's moments only ordinary then you are wrong. No one can touch his magic this season. not even messi or kaka.

Exactly. If you wanna praise him for being able to beat people to the ball and make himself useful, I'll agree. If you wanna argue that he can take a good free kick, fine. If you wanna argue that he is a goalscoring threat, we will agree.

If you're gonna tell me he is one of the top five best overall players on the planet because he's essentially a very good nuisance, I won't agree.

would you name your top 5 best overall players in the world? And another top 5 for best in the world at the moment?

And Ronaldo doesn't do it magic, he does it great. He is like Rooney, to me. Extremely good on top form, but I don't ever think they produce moments of utter magic like a Zidane, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Messi, Batistuta etc. They're just really, really good.

Most of those are entirely different players who do different jobs though. If messi is magic then so is ronaldo. I wouldnt even put messi or ronaldo in zidanes league yet anyway. they are both young wingers who have a lot more to learn and offer.

Why don't you get him signed to Wolves?

we have ebanks blake and eastwood

See, this is what I mean. Unstoppable? He wasn't unstoppable against many teams in his career. A.C. Milan turned him into a ballboy, he didn't do anything against Roma besides a 45 yard unmarked run that ended, ADMITTEDLY, in a headed goal of epic proportions. The reason he celebrated so vehemently against Derby when he turned in that off the shin ricochet was because he was, in fact, being stopped. He couldn't find the goal.

yes but why are you picking out specific games? its stupid really. to every game you say he was poor i could give you 10 games in which he was quality. Same with messi. He has quiet games aswell as fantastic games. why pick out the bad ones? Do you blame ronaldo for celebrating against derby? he had just scored a goal on a tough afternoon where things wernt going right for a change.

He's not unstoppable. Henry was unstoppable in his prime, Ronaldo was, Adriano was, Maradona was, Messi will be. Ronaldo isn't.

ronaldo isnt even in his prime yet and he is still unstoppable. adriano has been shit for ages now. i wouldnt of even game his name a mention.

No, him being overhyped is what makes it so. You watch the matches, how are you going to tell me he's not overrated, as good as he is? The newspapers, media and commentary teams more or less jerk themselves off the minute he walks onto the pitch.[.quote]

im not stupid, i dont think he is quality because the papers tell me. Ronaldo can look back at 95% of games this season and say he did the job. And so can everyone else. Every game he has made an impact. Some games he has been unstoppable, some games good and some quiet but still managed to come up with the goods. Thats what makes a great player.

[quote]I watch the Man Utd games, that's the difference. You watch Cristiano Ronaldo with rose-tinted glasses.

you only choose to look at the games he plays less well in. Always looking at the negative side.

World player of the year awards don't mean much no matter who wins them. The fact is, though, when others have won it, they won it by doing better things than Ronaldo did. Ronaldo's form now is not comparable to Ronaldinho's when he won it.

they usually get them spot on every year. Look back at the previous years and you will find little to argue with.

Originally posted by Deano
if he is a great winger and great goalscorer, then what else is there for him to do?

Why is talking to Ronaldo fanboys like talking to a wall?

Doing those two things greatly doesn't put you up as being the best overall player in the world. Player in that position? Perhaps.

Originally posted by Deano
There probably are players more equipped. Very few.

Wingers, maybe not many. As VVD said, why are you assuming it has to be a striker? There are better overall players than him. Makelele is better than Ronaldo.

"Oh you can't compare them.", then stop saying he's the overall best in the Prem.

Originally posted by Deano
there is plenty of evidence. i recall one wigan game in particular, bullard and co was trying to mark ronaldo all game but ronaldo tore him and wigan apart. He coped with the pressure. Admitedly some games the man marking can put him off his game but then its like that for everyone..uincluding messi.

But Messi can handle it and deal with it much better than Ronaldo, and come up with the end product much better.

Why? Cos he's much better than Ronaldo. That's how it works.

Originally posted by Deano
you mean like ronaldos backheel the other week? Look, im not trying to compare him to maradona or ronaldinho yet..im merely pointing out that he is having a fantastic season and that he is no where near overrated. He was the best player at the world cup and has had to brilliant seasons since then at united. He keeps getting better and he is only 23. Not even near his prime.

How was he the best player at the World Cup? Now you're just getting silly. The man is one of the most overrated players in the world, and he will continue to be for a long time because of people like you.

He could do NOTHING from now until his contract runs out and people will still praise him based on this season. He's inspiring Gerrard syndrome, and it's disgusting, because I swear everyone (Including you), hated the man when Rooney got sent off against Portugal.

That's another flaw, why assume he isn't anywhere near his prime? Let's see if he keeps getting better first. People said it about Rooney, but Rooney won't ever be as good as he once was.

Originally posted by Deano
Thats rubbish to me. He has done way more than produce high calibre football. If you are calling ronaldo's moments only ordinary then you are wrong. No one can touch his magic this season. not even messi or kaka.

What magic? He hasn't produced any magic great enough to be in their league.

Originally posted by Deano
would you name your top 5 best overall players in the world? And another top 5 for best in the world at the moment?

Well we might as well say on form at the moment:

Julio Cesar, Fabregas, Messi, Kaka', Bojan.

Originally posted by Deano
Most of those are entirely different players who do different jobs though. If messi is magic then so is ronaldo. I wouldnt even put messi or ronaldo in zidanes league yet anyway. they are both young wingers who have a lot more to learn and offer.

Exactly, so why is Ronaldo somehow in their league? Why is he the one of the best players in the world overall? Why not just the best winger?

Messi has proven he can go further because he started at one level and has progressed many times. Ronaldo's had...one standout season that has been excellent.

Originally posted by Deano
we have ebanks blake and eastwood

Better than Ronaldo.

Originally posted by Deano
yes but why are you picking out specific games? its stupid really. to every game you say he was poor i could give you 10 games in which he was quality. Same with messi. He has quiet games aswell as fantastic games. why pick out the bad ones? Do you blame ronaldo for celebrating against derby? he had just scored a goal on a tough afternoon where things wernt going right for a change.

Against Derby.

Barcelona played Getafe, who were shit, and we saw what happened. Barcelona played Real Madrid, went 3-0 down and we saw what Messi did then.

When has Ronaldo conjured such feats? Ronaldo couldn't single handedly bring Man Utd level against a team like Real. They'd mark him out of the game.

Originally posted by Deano
ronaldo isnt even in his prime yet and he is still unstoppable. adriano has been shit for ages now. i wouldnt of even game his name a mention.

Who said now? I was using examples of true players who are or WERE truly unstoppable, and Ronaldo cannot compare to what they did to defenses. He doesn't have the strength or grace to do so. If you haven't got strength, you've gotta have the ability to go around people and not get knocked over, like Henry. Ronaldo doesn't have it now.

I'm not going to say he never will, but I'm not going to do what you do and assume he will, just because he's having a good season. If he repeats it next season, I will start agreeing with you, void of any shame.

Originally posted by Deano
you only choose to look at the games he plays less well in. Always looking at the negative side.

Because there are actually lots of negatives, Deano.

Originally posted by Deano
they usually get them spot on every year. Look back at the previous years and you will find little to argue with.

Read what I said. Ronaldinho won it; opinion. Ronaldo wins it?; opinion.

The difference is, the form Ronaldinho was in was unprecedented. He wasn't just a bit of a successful winger. He was pulling shit off that nobody has seen since...however long. Ronaldo isn't doing anything for Man Utd that Robben didn't do for Chelsea in his prime.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You resorted to saying such things as:

"You f*cking retard.", "Suck a fart out of Arsene Wenger's ass.", "You have no life." (Why personal attack?) and "You're an idiot.".

You didn't deserve to be paid attention to until you calmed yourself down, so if you've calmed yourself down, I will allow our discussion about football to continue.

dont take it so literally. what is the point of this sentence?

Because when all you're doing is just telling me I'm wrong by using abuse, how much of my attention do you feel you deserve? Honestly? Even before you snapped, I was addressing and countering your arguments, that's precisely why you snapped.

I assumed you were accusing me of saying he cannot do anything. Never did I say that. Are you weaselling a point here?

Then he doesn't deserve the credit, because it's not necessarily fouls from the opponent. Nobody deserves to have skill countered with violence, not a ManYoo player, not a Spurs player, not an Arsenal player, no player. However, when you are suggesting someone who has you figured out is using violent conduct to stop you, and he isn't, you are a faker. Ronaldo is playing it up, and he has the advantage now because Fergie is on his period. He's comparing Ronaldo getting pressured and falling over to Eduardo having his leg snapped.

That was me explaining that there is more to United's season that people are not seeing, and they are getting undue credit for certain things. They're top because they have done enough to be top, Arsenal had a poor run of DECISIONS, yes, it sucks. Even if you remove Arsenal from existence, my point still remains. Teams still go to pieces under ManYoo's reputation and often destroy themselves from within. ManYoo don't destroy defenses so much as defenses destroy themselves. As proven by teams who've given them a hard time and teams who haven't.

My other point was that Ronaldo's goal tally doesn't truly reflect his ability, because of the aforementioned point.

So you can indeed take it how you want it, and you will, because it will make you feel like there's a loophole in my point; bias as an Arsenal supporter. My point stands even if Arsenal didn't exist.

Arsenal went the whole year without being beaten because they had one of the most destructive sides in the history of the league, where as ManYoo have strong players here and there, Arsenal had top quality in every position. ManYoo don't.

The barrage of personal attacks, probably.

People hate ManYoo because the media hype them up and treat them as untouchables. You think teams are not mentally affected by this? You'd think ManYoo had 11 Peles on the team by the way some of the media talk.

And I proved that it did, to which you just kept telling me what you wish had happened.

Every game televised, I thought that was implicit. It's usually all the big teams, so it would still be totally relevant to what we've discussed (As the players we're comparing are big team players; Kaka', Messi etc).

I didn't ignore it, I acknowledged it. What he did against Fulham (Wow!) is totally different to the kind of player and the kind of ability I am referring to. He could never do what players like Messi have done. Thus proving the point that he doesn't have enough overall attributes to be considered one of the world's overall best players. Goalscorers? Sure. Effective players? Sure. Overall ability? No.

You saying Park is as good as Rosicky is what makes you look bad, I don't have to do much. Then you have the nerve to claim you know about football. Park is a jobber.

Why cite winning free kicks as proof of a foul? He's an actor, he goes over at the first sign of a breeze. He wins free kicks because it's the closest he can sensibly get to stamping his foot and saying "Stop the game, I am Ronaldo, I demand a free kick, because that's something I'm good at...in the event I can't beat my marker.".

Because that's down to Vidic and Ferdinand.

-AC [/B]


i didnt snap man. cling on to that one as long as you want.

no weaselings going on, just pointing it out.

its basically the same thing, eduardo and ronaldo. people targeting a player or team and trying to hurt them. eduardo is just the worst case scenario when it gets out of hand. ronaldos had a couple scares this season where if he'd lifted his foot off the ground a split second later, it could have been a serious injury.

i dont know what you're referring to when you say they're getting credit for certain things they dont deserve. like playing the best football? arsenal probably get it for the start of the season form.

name all the teams that fell to pieces in front of man u's reputation this year for me please. theres what, 2 according to you?

im not comparing the teams, arsenals team was better, dont get ahead of yourself. i was just using them as an example because im sure there were a few decisions and lucky bounces that went there way through the course of the season and most likely a team having a off day.

how did you PROVE your point. by saying aston villas defence was shambolic because ronaldo got a lucky bounce in the box? united opened them up on the second through movement. then, after that, they weren't at their best, i agree. you go 2-0 away from home to arsenal in the first half hour and im sure you'll see a few heads drop and some tired defending.

its you whos doing the comparing, i was just saying you were selling cron a bit short.

must've missed where you acknowledged that. what messi did against getafe(Wow!) was amazing, never said it wasnt or that ronaldo could replicate it. you just said that ronaldo couldnt beat a player or many players and score a goal, so i provided an example of him doing just that.

rosicky does basically the same job that park does, he just starts for arsenal so hes more of an integral part of the team. they both provide width, they are both good defenders, they both provide good movement, they both pop up in the box with a goal every now and then. rosicky might have a touch more class, but they're pretty comparable.

read the post, half of them were actual fouls, half of them he was selling. watch the game, i can think of 3 times at least where he was fouled in the game, 3 or 4 times where he sold it. so more or less half were actual fouls, half where he saw the player trying to impede him and went down.

its down to the whole team, along with wes brown. hes not the best attacking fullback ill admit, but he hasnt really put a foot wrong as far as defending goes.

eboue though is shit from what ive seen of him in the midfield. hes a decent enough full back, but i dont like him as a winger.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Well we might as well say on form at the moment:

Julio Cesar, Fabregas, Messi, Kaka', Bojan.

okay, i know its your opinion, but thats a bit of a stretch if you ask me.

bojan? because he tapped in henrys pass in the champions league? automatic top 5 player.

fabregas? really? if this question was posed at the start of the season i could see that, he'd be in the top 2, maybe even number 1, but now? really? based on form?

Yes, I believe that of Fabregas.

As for Bojan, I've seen him come on for Barca and be magnificent against defenses that are by no means complacent.

Originally posted by Phat J
i didnt snap man. cling on to that one as long as you want.

The posts speak for themselves, accept a little responsibility.

Originally posted by Phat J
its basically the same thing, eduardo and ronaldo. people targeting a player or team and trying to hurt them. eduardo is just the worst case scenario when it gets out of hand. ronaldos had a couple scares this season where if he'd lifted his foot off the ground a split second later, it could have been a serious injury.

List the times you've seen Eduardo dive or play up a foul. I can't do it for Ronaldo simply because there are so many, and you know it.

Ronaldo goes over at the slightest touch, Eduardo doesn't. Comparing the two is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Phat J
i dont know what you're referring to when you say they're getting credit for certain things they dont deserve. like playing the best football? arsenal probably get it for the start of the season form.

Well enjoyable football/best football is never going to be a definite conclusion, since I imagine others would say other teams. Personally, for me, it is Arsenal. Man Utd have had to do a fair share of winning ugly to get where they are. Arsenal haven't had much of that this season.

Originally posted by Phat J
name all the teams that fell to pieces in front of man u's reputation this year for me please. theres what, 2 according to you?

Newcastle twice, Villa, Middlesbrough, Bolton, Liverpool to name a few.

Teams who didn't (Or didn't YET):

Arsenal, Sunderland, Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth, Derby.

Although to be fair, Torres was getting endlessly battered by Ferdinand (Who is one of my favourite defenders usually), and Mascherano got sent off when he shouldn't have.

Originally posted by Phat J
im not comparing the teams, arsenals team was better, dont get ahead of yourself. i was just using them as an example because im sure there were a few decisions and lucky bounces that went there way through the course of the season and most likely a team having a off day.

Of course, I'm not naive enough to say Man Utd are there because of luck, but I feel you would have a greater appreciation for what I'm saying if you lived here. Deano not withstanding, because he does this thing where he'll be a really sensible football fan, then a player will come along whose ass will become his home for the season.

There's a reason not a lot of people feel Man Utd deserve shit, here.

Originally posted by Phat J
how did you PROVE your point. by saying aston villas defence was shambolic because ronaldo got a lucky bounce in the box? united opened them up on the second through movement. then, after that, they weren't at their best, i agree. you go 2-0 away from home to arsenal in the first half hour and im sure you'll see a few heads drop and some tired defending.

Villa didn't, did they? They got a lucky own goal and shut up shop. They had an nine or 10 man defense at some points. Nothing could get through, and it wasn't to do with the quality of players, because I doubt even the real Ronaldo in his prime could handle that. It was because they had more mental belief.

The general feeling amongst the press here was, from the very start, "Arsenal are weak now.". Then when Arsenal started smashing people, "They can't keep it up.". The media were hyping people and suggesting, if anything, that Arsenal are the team to take points from. People seemingly tried their hardest. Nobody says it about Man Utd.

When Man Utd are a point clear, it's "They've won it.". When Arsenal were five clear, it was "They'll slip.". The media is biased toward Man Utd.

Originally posted by Phat J
its you whos doing the comparing, i was just saying you were selling cron a bit short.

I think people are not satisfied with saying "He's the best winger in the world.". They want to say he's more because they feel they should, he's not.

Originally posted by Phat J
must've missed where you acknowledged that. what messi did against getafe(Wow!) was amazing, never said it wasnt or that ronaldo could replicate it. you just said that ronaldo couldnt beat a player or many players and score a goal, so i provided an example of him doing just that.

Wait, is this the goal?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5eQ-mTUTVhU

Is that it? Because if that was your example, all along, then I can't believe it. He hopped over two players who slide into committed tackles. He didn't weave around any players on their feet, intent on taking the ball off him.

I sure hope, for your sake, that wasn't your example. It was a good goal, and part of Ronaldo's appeal is that he makes people obviously feel like they have to commit so that he doesn't have to weave, because that usually ends with him losing the ball. It was a good example of a good goal, not a good example of truly beating men.

Originally posted by Phat J
rosicky does basically the same job that park does, he just starts for arsenal so hes more of an integral part of the team. they both provide width, they are both good defenders, they both provide good movement, they both pop up in the box with a goal every now and then. rosicky might have a touch more class, but they're pretty comparable.

They're really not comparable. Rosicky is leagues better for club and country than Park is. Now and then? Park pops up with a goal around the time of each lunar eclipse...if he gets a game or a lucky deflection.

Originally posted by Phat J
read the post, half of them were actual fouls, half of them he was selling. watch the game, i can think of 3 times at least where he was fouled in the game, 3 or 4 times where he sold it. so more or less half were actual fouls, half where he saw the player trying to impede him and went down.

So then you lose credibility, what more is there to argue? He has proven that he likes to go down when he is frequently halted. So it kind of proves he's not unstoppable.

Either way, we clearly just disagree, so from my end there's not much more to discuss.

In your case or Deano's. It's ultimately amounting to "I think this.", "I disagree.".

-AC

Originally posted by jaden101
oooo....scandalous...did he touch you when you were a boy?

A little bit, but only when I was really good.

Actually, I like the man that I see on TV. I just felt like saying something provocative.

In other news, I'm looking forward to the conclusion of the Ronaldo debate. Ooo.