Pretty nasty injury that, but other players have come back from such injuries, Henrik Larsson comes to mind.
when I see things like that I hope my kids don´t play football.
Although it appears that his leg was already going as he put it on the floor at a weird angle, before he was kicked see 41 secs on this vid
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
**** Shawcross. They're talking about Ramsey never being able to play again.
"He's a nice lad, he isn't that kind of player.".
1) Doesn't matter how nice he is, because Ramsey's out for about a year.
2) Has done it three times before to Arsenal alone. Not with as severe consequences, but still.
As Football365 said, people claim Arsenal "don't like it up 'em", but why should they and why should anyone?
Nobody would DARE tackle Rooney like that, ever. Not with the World Cup coming up.
-AC
There was no intent. Just watch the tackle, it was foolish but without mallice. Shawcross got the punishment he deserved with a red card... that and the guilt he's facing are more than enough.
Shit like this happens, no player wants to see another get injured that badly, you're just pissed and biased because you're a gunners fan AC.
Originally posted by §P0oONY
There was no intent. Just watch the tackle, it was foolish but without mallice. Shawcross got the punishment he deserved with a red card... that and the guilt he's facing are more than enough.Shit like this happens, no player wants to see another get injured that badly, you're just pissed and biased because you're a gunners fan AC.
Stop using the pathetic argument of: "Nobody means it, nobody wants to see it happen", because that's not the point being made.
Why is that an acceptable argument; "He wasn't doing it maliciously."? I'm not saying he was and it doesn't matter if he wasn't. He is known for being a terribly reckless player. If the tackle was fair and clean, we'd not be discussing this. It was foul and dirty, it doesn't matter WHY it was.
It happened with Francis Jeffers and Shawcross was all over the paper, with his team and manager saying he isn't a bad guy. He nearly took Adebayor's foot off last season or so.
It's a known fact, Spooney. The managers tell their players to go and rough Arsenal up because if they don't, they'll get whooped. Ricardo Fuller said it, Pulis has said it, Big Sam used to say it, pundits say it As a result, Ramsey is now a year off or more and will lose crucial development time.
Your argument fails; "Shit like this happens.", to who?
Three times in the past three years to Arsenal, I think. Not just injuries, horrific leg breaks that could have been career enders for three madly promising young men.
When has this recently happened, and so frequently, to anyone else?
When have you ever seen Rooney, Terry or Gerrard suffer such a tackle? Never, is the answer, because the media would go mad. It allows them to pass it off as a whining foreigner who is making a meal out of something that wasn't bad because Shawcross is a "nice lad". F*ck that bullshit. Is him being a nice guy going to get us our squad back?
People and pundits always criticise Arsenal for not being able to go the distance with our squad, but that's because people always injure them. How many reserve players are we supposed to have in case some team of Northern thugs decide to play us as if it's M.M.A.?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAiyAMU9HBM
Listen to the replay commentary:
"I think Aurelio can foul him. I think Aurelio should be prepared to take yellow, stop the attack at all costs.".
AT ALL COSTS. As in, there is no cost that's too great to stop him.
I'm biased? What kind of person advocates rule breaking, with the potential for bad injury, just to stop Theo Walcott? When have you ever heard that kind of thing said about anyone else or any other team?
Nobody's ever said that about Rooney, Gerrard, Terry etc.
So you can now tell me how I'm biased, because the facts are all there. I'm not saying there's a global conspiracy, I'm saying there are truth to the ideas that people target Arsenal a great deal more than other teams. This is a fact.
If you don't have a clue what you're on about, maybe do the research first.
-AC
All I'm reading is "Wah, wah, wah. Arsenal gets bullied, it's not fair". What do you propose? That's football, if a team wants to rough up another that's their prerogative, the other team should just expect it and work it to their advantage. Bitching and moaning about it serves no purpose. Rule breaking is a part of football, if you don't like it go watch a different sport.
I personally believe what that commentator says during the game, fouling a player is sometime the right thing to do. So what if it's against the rules, that's what the card system is for.
Oh, and don't say "Northern thugs", I can't abide crap like that, it's as bad as racism.
Originally posted by §P0oONY
All I'm reading is "Wah, wah, wah. Arsenal gets bullied, it's not fair".
Then you're being an ignorant fool who likes to mouth off but can't handle arguments that contain facts.
Either read my post and respond properly or don't call me out.
Originally posted by §P0oONY
What do you propose? That's football, if a team wants to rough up another that's their prerogative, the other team should just expect it and work it to their advantage. Bitching and moaning about it serves no purpose. Rule breaking is a part of football, if you don't like it go watch a different sport.
It's football, not mixed martial arts. What's wrong with you?
"Rule breaking is a part of football." is such a pathetically stupid thing to say. It's common occurance, that doesn't mean it SHOULD be and it certainly doesn't mean that we should accept it.
Sport is the last real bastion of talent, it's the last place on Earth where you HAVE to be talented to be reasonably acclaimed and fame won't get you awards. That's why it's shit that teams who dream of playing like Arsenal feel that they only way to top them is to break the legs of their players. That's not talent, fair play, cool or right and I'd say the same for absolutely any team. No player deserves that kind of treatment; not John Terry, not Rooney, not Ramsey.
Football, like any sport, is about the best team winning. Wrongful calls or decisions by the ref are going to happen, but at least players can pick themselves up to play next week. If you aren't the better team and therefore you have to break rules that are there to protect the integrity and fairness of the sport to get ahead, then that's wrong.
If you want leg-breaking horrors and you think it's ok, YOU go watch a different sport. I've supported Arsenal since I was five years old, I was going to watch live games when you were still being nappy changed, Spoony. I'm not someone you get to tell to watch a different sport.
Go to the hospital and tell Aaron Ramsey - arguably the most promising British player of his generation - that he should change careers if he doesn't like it, then we'll see how "right" you look.
Originally posted by §P0oONY
I personally believe what that commentator says during the game, fouling a player is sometime the right thing to do. So what if it's against the rules, that's what the card system is for.
Stop being such a naive fool, seriously.
If he breaks Theo's leg and sets him back a year, what the Hell is a red card going to do? That's not balance, at all. It's certainly not incentive to stop those kind of tackles.
You are the kind of person who confuses aggressive tackling with thuggish recklessness, aren't you? "Oh they're trying to get tackles out of football.". No, I'm not.
When has Paolo Maldini - someone with the greatest defensive ability of all time - ever committed such an atrocity? He tackles with the best, but when has he ever nearly ended multiple careers? You can have intense games with lots of tackling, but RECKLESS tackles need to be gone for the simple fact that it's dangerous.
Aaron Ramsey got a broken leg, an ended season and a year out of crucial development. Shawcross got a red card and an England call-up. Fair? Of course it's not. Stop being so ridiculous.
You highlight that the card system has a purpose, but you contradict yourself. It has no purpose if people are going to keep ignoring it, does it? It's no longer a deterrant. If you're prepared to get sent off, that's a sign that the rules are not harsh enough. If FIFA said: "Right, anyone diving gets an immediate red.", there'd soon be less divers.
It has nothing to do with being a fan of Arsenal and everything to do with having decency and respect for these athletes. When Pedro Mendes got elbowed by Ben Thatcher and was left spasming on the floor while they put an oxygen mask on his face, what was your stance there; "Tough luck, Pedro. Play a different sport."?
What about when Eduardo had his leg broken? Dave Busst? Djibril Cisse? Should they just f*ck off because they don't like potentially being disabled?
When a player has the ball at his feet and you make a tackle that breaks both the tibia and fibia of the player, there's something wrong. There's no need to ever do that or use that kind of force. Mixed martial artists barely injure each other that badly, that's the disgusting part.
If you can't give me any decent counter beyond the truly pathetic arguments you've provided, then stop replying to me.
Originally posted by §P0oONY
Oh, and don't say "Northern thugs", I can't abide crap like that, it's as bad as racism.
It's way more accurate than any of the utter bullcrap you're spouting in this thread.
A lot of the Northern Premier League teams are thuggish players. I'm not saying they all are.
-AC
Arsenal do get a hell of a lot of Injuries to be honest, but why?
Are their players not trained properly to avoid getting injured?
Is their style of football not suited for the hard English game?
Rooney, Gerrard and other players do get tackled hard as well but get up and get on with it, maybe they instinctively know how to react when tackled to avoid bad injury because of the way they are trained.
Instead of blaming the whole league and everyone else for Arsenals predicament, maybe you should point your finger at Wengers training. After all Barcelona play a similar style and manage to get along, especially in the CL against more brutal teams who try to stop their poetic style of play.
As long as football remains a contact sport, these things will happen.
Originally posted by Bicnarok
Arsenal do get a hell of a lot of Injuries to be honest, but why?Are their players not trained properly to avoid getting injured?
Is their style of football not suited for the hard English game?
What's "The English Game"? Kick the hell out of opponents more skilled than you can dream of being? F*ck the English game if that's what it is. That might be why England win nothing ever.
Suggesting Arsenal's players aren't trained to avoid injury is pathetic. That's like saying someone isn't a good driver for getting into a horrific crash; there are other drivers on the road and if one of them is dangerously undisciplined, you could get seriously hurt. What's the thinking on your part; "If you go on the road you should just be careful of other peoples' wild mistakes. They should train you for that when you take your test."?
You're as bad as Spoony.
Originally posted by Bicnarok
Rooney, Gerrard and other players do get tackled hard as well but get up and get on with it, maybe they instinctively know how to react when tackled to avoid bad injury because of the way they are trained.
No, they don't get tackled as hard because everyone's shit scared of what would happen with the World Cup coming up. Alex Ferguson wields a LOT of media influence; the BBC are scared to say anything about him to that end. He's never criticised in the open media.
As for them knowing how to take fouls? Gerrard dives before players reach him, so there's that. Gerrard is a known diver, that's probably another reason why nobody goes near him. There's YouTube video after YouTube video of the man's dives, same with Rooney although not to such a grand extent.
Also, Rooney is a striker/second striker, so he doesn't always get into the thick of the midfield battle hardly ever. Most of the tackles to him may result in penalties because of this. The fact that he's the nation's golden boy is what causes a lot of the fear around him.
Referees also admit that they feel they have to protect the England captain a lot more than others when it comes to roughness.
Originally posted by Bicnarok
Instead of blaming the whole league and everyone else for Arsenals predicament, maybe you should point your finger at Wengers training. After all Barcelona play a similar style and manage to get along, especially in the CL against more brutal teams who try to stop their poetic style of play.
1. As above.
2. Do they? Do you watch La Liga? Teams that Barca outclass just end up resorting to kicking the crap out of Messi, Bojan, Iniesta etc. It's disgusting.
Originally posted by Bicnarok
As long as football remains a contact sport, these things will happen.
"These things will happen."?
Give me the list then. It seems like everyone feels these injuries are common and we need to accept them.
List me the recent ones or all time serious ones.
Ramsey, Eduardo, Diaby, Busst, Cisse. Three of those are Arsenal players and within a short space of time. The very fact that you can name them is because it's a rare occurance...except for Arsenal.
These injuries do NOT "happen" enough to warrant such a casual approach to them. So please, give us stats and proof to show that "these things happen". Even so, they shouldn't. They simply shouldn't.
Football is not a place for such recklessness, fact. There are rules for a reason. As I said, M.M.A. is actual fighting...but there are disciplinary rules for safety. Same as football.
I'm not saying injuries and tackles shouldn't happen, I'm saying recklessness is retarded and needs to be stamped out as much as possible.
How many great defenders or tackling midfielders have ever truly crippled or almost crippled an opponent?
Maldini? Baresi? Cannavaro? Zanetti? Makelele? Zidane? Fabregas? Viera? Essien? Kaka? Deco? Ferdinand? Costacurta?
How many of those have repeat offenses, much less single serious offenses, to their names?
Not many if any at all. Why? Because they're good enough not to. It's called professional discipline.
-AC
Anyone who has played or coached football knows you can train to avoid injury, how to react when tackled, just look at some footage of George Best to see this in action, and tackling in those days WAS criminal.
Ok fluke injuries like Ramsey´s cannot be avoided if two players go for the ball in that fashion, (also look at the video slo mo I posted for a closer look, it looked like his leg was going before he was kicked).
Also most English clubs go for big athletic players nowadys , not skinny ballet dancers like Arsenal prefer so they are bound to get injured more often.
Originally posted by Bicnarok
Anyone who has played or coached football knows you can train to avoid injury, how to react when tackled, just look at some footage of George Best to see this in action, and tackling in those days WAS criminal.
What about really terrible, unavoidable injuries caused by wild recklessness that you can't train to avoid (Nor should you have to)?
Originally posted by Bicnarok
Ok fluke injuries like Ramsey´s cannot be avoided if two players go for the ball in that fashion, (also look at the video slo mo I posted for a closer look, it looked like his leg was going before he was kicked).
Oh, so now we agree that your prior comment was hogwash and there is no such thing as training to avoid everything? Good. Glad we cleared that up. This isn't the tale of a man who didn't warm up, it's the story of a young, prodigiously talented man who got thugged over by someone who isn't anywhere near as good.
Shawcross has done it twice before to Arsenal and the press quotes were EXACTLY the same; "He's not like that.". What's he like then? He's either malicious or retarded.
His leg wasn't going to snap before he was kicked, was it? His tibia AND fibia were not going to pop out of his sock without Shawcross.
Originally posted by Bicnarok
Also most English clubs go for big athletic players nowadys , not skinny ballet dancers like Arsenal prefer so they are bound to get injured more often.
Legs aren't tree trunks. The lower leg is the most fragile part, it's liable for a break if you do a tackle like that.
Regardless, most of what you said in your prior post is nonsense and I'm glad you've regained a bulk of your sense, unlike Spoony.
I'll leave you with a quote from an American who has greater understanding of sportsmanship than most of the people sharing an opinion on this:
"Even in American football where it's almost commonplace for our athletes to carry guns, beat their wives, and run illegal dog fighting pits, we don't jump to the side of a guy who makes a bad tackle and grievously injurers another player. Twice this season (in American football) late hits have resulted in sending a player to the hospital. Each time the offender was suspended, fined and unanimously derided (aside from his own fans of course - that's the same everywhere). Why? Becuase they are professionals and they know damn well what they are doing. But in England, things are different.
In England, everyone seems to jump onto the side of the offender because he "didn't mean to hurt anyone". Nonsense! Shawcross is an experienced professional; he went into a tackle late at full-speed, damn the torpedoes - and screw the consequences. Then when those consequences result in a compound fracture to the opposing player, he cries about it and all of England jumps to his defense. What the hell is wrong with you people? A young man is lying in a hospital bed with a potentially career-ending injury and you all side with the culprit because he "feels bad"? Well boo f***ing hoo for him. Come on England, get your priorities straight!".
Amen.
-AC
How about you treat football like football. It's entertainment, stop taking it so seriously. Someone got hurt, boohoo. It'll be forgotten in no time.
Sportmanship has been dying in football for years, watch other sports if this is a problem. Fouling is a part of the game, whether it should be is another question, personally I believe that fouls, goals and full blooded tackling is what makes a great game.
Arguing about this is ridiculous, It's a game, it's for chat with your mates down the pub... That is it.
Originally posted by §P0oONY
How about you treat football like football. It's entertainment, stop taking it so seriously. Someone got hurt, boohoo. It'll be forgotten in no time.Sportmanship has been dying in football for years, watch other sports if this is a problem. Fouling is a part of the game, whether it should be is another question, personally I believe that fouls, goals and full blooded tackling is what makes a great game.
Arguing about this is ridiculous, It's a game, it's for chat with your mates down the pub... That is it.
Debates are debates. Get in or don't.
It's not entertainment to the players; it's a career and a job also. We're having a debate about a rather important subject, so if you wanna make jokes, do so. Just don't expect to be taken seriously.
Sportsmanship isn't breaking someone's leg because you can't tackle for shit, that's not sportsmanship at all.
You watch other sports, hmm? How about that? How about you watch something that is ok with people having legs snapped and I'll keep watching the sport I've been watching for way longer than you?
Fouling isn't part of the game, but it inevitably happens and thus there's a card system. The card system does not mean it's ok to foul, and the fact that you suggest it is makes you an illogical and worrying individual.
You're naive. You think all of that makes a great game? Such a stupid point. Would you think so if you had your leg snapped at a crucial point in your development, on the cusp of regular first team football, causing you to be out for a year? No, you wouldn't.
Just because all we get out of it is entertainment, that's no excuse for such a disgusting and disgraceful lack of respect for the game and the players. That's what YOU have; a lack of respect for football.
Go watch boxing if violence is what you dig. I don't "chat down the pub" because I refuse to partake in such unclassy behaviour. Maybe that's the difference between us; I grew out of thuggery.
-AC
I personally prefer the technical game, less fouls more skill etc but the fact of the matter is the rules allow harsh tackles and the punishment for dangerous actions is trivial, a few games suspension.
In normal life such actions would be GBH
But whats the alternative, if football was played JUST as a bigger version of Futsal, totally technical less contact would it be as entertaining?
As for this tackle by Shawcross, I don´t think it was malicious more inexperience, clumsiness and bad timing. But if as AC says he does this sort of thing often he needs a longer ban.
Originally posted by Bicnarok
I personally prefer the technical game, less fouls more skill etc but the fact of the matter is the rules allow harsh tackles and the punishment for dangerous actions is trivial, a few games suspension.In normal life such actions would be GBH
But whats the alternative, if football was played JUST as a bigger version of Futsal, totally technical less contact would it be as entertaining?
As for this tackle by Shawcross, I don´t think it was malicious more inexperience, clumsiness and bad timing. But if as AC says he does this sort of thing often he needs a longer ban.
WHY on God's Earth does everybody keep saying "He's not malicious"? NOBODY is saying he is. Well, I'm certainly not.
The argument wasn't about malice, it was PRECISELY about recklessness, thoughtlessness and undisciplined behaviour. It's not one of "those things that happen" because it doesn't happen often does it? Well, three times in five years to Arsenal. Who else? Cisse? Dave Busst? Precisely. There probably isn't a conspiracy against Arsenal, but as Martin Samuel said in The Daily Mail; how can three broken legs in five years, JUST ARSENAL, be coincidence?
Then consider that Shawcross has done it to Francis Jeffers at Arsenal and they piped out the same excuses. He did it to Adebayor last season, though luckily he wasn't injured badly.
He's a terribly reckless player. Nobody's calling him Hitler.
Anyone saying: "These things happen." will see a list of "these things" that isn't especially long and mostly populated by Arsenal players.
Ricardo Fuller has openly said said they know they can "rough" Arsenal up. Why is that a viable tactic?
-AC
That's mature.
It comes to down how the tackles are in the English. They're needlessly reckless. If you do a good, fundamental tackle, your studs should never be high enough to break someone's leg like that. Shawcross lunged at Ramsey, didn't stay to the ground, and that's ultimately why the injury happened. It's a c*nt's way to tackle but everyone passes it over as nothing. It's bullshit and needs to stop.
Originally posted by §P0oONY
Better they happen to Arsenal than a club i actually like.
It didn't happen to a club, it happened to an 19 year old, talented young man.
Nobody'll know if it happens to the clubs you probably like anyway. Who watches the S.P.L.? Five...maybe eight people? I'm sure it'll matter to the two mediocre teams who dominate all the other shit ones.
Regardless, we've seen how far your debate skill goes. Leave it to those who can, ok?
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It didn't happen to a club, it happened to an 19 year old, talented young man.Nobody'll know if it happens to the clubs you probably like anyway. Who watches the S.P.L.? Five...maybe eight people? I'm sure it'll matter to the two mediocre teams who dominate all the other shit ones.
Regardless, we've seen how far your debate skill goes. Leave it to those who can, ok?
-AC
The SPL is shit (I'm not Scottish). Most Scots admit that the SPL isn't very good. I support the magpies, which are also in a worse league. As for Premiership sides though, I just don't like Arsenal, I think Wenger is an annoying prick.
I never even wanted a debate. Hence the reason I diffused it with a stupid comment. Anyone who wants a debate with you is stupid. You never back down. You're a brick wall, it's worthless, people who want to debate with you can. I just came here to talk footie. So let's end this crap now,