Good point. Considering that it's the power to manipulate life that Anakin was after, you'd think he'd be far more affected by seeing Palpatine completely decimate Mace. Show him that, as Anakin had thought all along, the Jedi Order was holding him back from his true potential. This, however, assumes that Palpatine COULD destroy Mace, which he obviously couldn't.
Which, once again, brings up a side point: why would Sidious scheme to get Anakin on his side if he didn't need him? If he could own both Yoda and Mace,then surely he could have taken down Anakin before the man reached his full potential. Then Sidious could have ruled the Empire alone, without having to fear that Vader would turn on him and fulfill his destiny.
That Sidious didn't do this is proof of one of two things: 1) he's an idiot, or 2) He needed Anakin. All of you Palps lovers out there are denying both. So why, then, did he not act as I suggested above?
Could it be that the Chosen One actually had some impact on the direction of the galaxy???? Now who would have thought that?
For like the fortieth time now: If Palpatine could have defeated Mace without Anakin's assistance, then the Chosen One's actions were inconsequential in the moment that signified the end of the Republic and the beginning of the Empire. Please, tell me how this in any way jells with ANY of the themes that Lucas has put forth?
Don't ignore that question any more, if you want to be taken even remotely seriously. Answer it.
Yeah he did. The prophecy said that he would destroy the sith and that he would bring balance to the force. Of course, considering that the sith are the imbalance, those two things are one and the same (Side note: balance does NOT mean equal jedi-to-sith ratio. In that regard, simple math shows you that he would have failed, as there is 1 jedi and 0 sith when vader dies).
In his final act of defiance, Anakin destroyed both Vader and Sidious. He destroyed Sidious by killing him, and Vader by renouncing the Sith and returning to the jedi ways (hence the title "Return of the Jedi"😉
Originally posted by mtryder
What is sad is your stubborn insistence that Palps had everything under control, despite thematic elements, what was blatantly in the movie, and even *physics* saying that you're wrong (unless you're willing to say that he intentionally had his face melted).As I said before: if his premonition was so absolute that he KNEW mace wouldn't finish his job before Anakin arrived, or that he KNEW that Anakin would arrive at all, then why did he not know that Anakin would turn on him in RoTJ? In light of the fact that his premonition utterly fails him in episode 6, it's pathetic and foolish to stubbornly insist nonetheless that the premonition is absolute.
what is sad is your insistance that he isn't. who said he didn't let his face be damaged? I just can't believe this resistance even exists. Its so obvious. Its right there on film. Everyone in the group I went to see the film with all said the same thing, fakin' it. If y'all are too into mace to see it, oh well. The DVD commentary will settle this so I'll just wait until I hear Lucas' view on this...
Originally posted by mtryder
Good point. Considering that it's the power to manipulate life that Anakin was after, you'd think he'd be far more affected by seeing Palpatine completely decimate Mace. Show him that, as Anakin had thought all along, the Jedi Order was holding him back from his true potential. This, however, assumes that Palpatine COULD destroy Mace, which he obviously couldn't.Which, once again, brings up a side point: why would Sidious scheme to get Anakin on his side if he didn't need him? If he could own both Yoda and Mace,then surely he could have taken down Anakin before the man reached his full potential. Then Sidious could have ruled the Empire alone, without having to fear that Vader would turn on him and fulfill his destiny.
That Sidious didn't do this is proof of one of two things: 1) he's an idiot, or 2) He needed Anakin. All of you Palps lovers out there are denying both. So why, then, did he not act as I suggested above?
Could it be that the Chosen One actually had some impact on the direction of the galaxy???? Now who would have thought that?
For like the fortieth time now: If Palpatine could have defeated Mace without Anakin's assistance, then the Chosen One's actions were inconsequential in the moment that signified the end of the Republic and the beginning of the Empire. Please, tell me how this in any way jells with ANY of the themes that Lucas has put forth?
Don't ignore that question any more, if you want to be taken even remotely seriously. Answer it.
Are you talking to me here? I didn't realize this question had been asked. Here's what happened: Anakin needed to turn, but he needed to believe in Palpatine, he needed to feel Palpatine needed him in order for him to justify turning to himself. Palpatine set that whole thing up to allow Anakin to make up his own mind. Sure he could have just killed mace to impress Ani, but then Ani wouldn't learn nothin'. Ani came in, did his part that Palps set up for him, and it made Anakin believe Palps. He was still on the fence about what side to be on. Palps was trying to convince him that the Jedi wanted to take over and were in fact the evil ones. He does this by setting up a stiuation where Mace comes in and says "im gonna kill you, you're too dangerous to live" and the Ani says no, sees that what Palps has been telling him is "true" (at least from his view) and does what he thinks "helps" palpatine. That fits in perfectly with the themes, that he was taken advangtage of, and that certain situations were set up by Palps speciffically to make the universe look a certain way to Anakin, which would make Ani susceptable to Palps influence and point of view. Point of view being another very important theme through out the films. I'm shockied more people can't see this.
if what you say is true, then you must be able to refute the point that I originally made: If Palpatine didn't need Anakin, then the theme is destroyed and the Chosen One is made inconsequential. I've addressed all of your points, now you try addressing that one.
And about the balance thing, the equal jedi-to-sith thing is NOT balance. Take these points into consideration:
1) the only time that there was an equal number of sith and jedi was well after the events of ROTS, after the purge was complete. At that point there were two sith (Vader, Sidious) and two Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda). However, he later undoes this no less than TWO times, both by killing Obi-Wan and later by destroying himself and Sidious. So the fact that he "fulfills" that must be mere coincidence, since he "unfulfills" it numerous times thereafter.
2) If there can only be two Sith, then bringing balance by that incorrect definition would have to mean bringing the Jedi number to two. Considering that in the PT there were AT LEAST 30-40 Jedi hanging around, why would the Jedi be so fixated on training a guy who was destined to kill most of them? Clearly, that was not what the Prophecy meant.
One must simply look at how they use the Force. The Jedi are attuned to the force. They use it justly- in harmony with it. This is why Qui-Gon, the ultimate advocate of the living force, is granted immortality. The Jedi, in all respects, represent balance.
The Sith, on the other hand, quest to subjugate the force to their own desires. Where the force is a natural, balancing entity, they seek to wage war, destroy, and create life with it. This is clearly unbalanced from the natural order. Philosophically speaking, it's Cartesian views squaring off with Taoism.
I think peoples brains can't handle the bad guys winning. And as GL has stated several times, in this film the bad guys win. On top of that, people can't seem to handle that Anakin was just a pawn, someone Palps needed to help him kill the Jedi. Killing Mace wasn't the big impact Ani had on the galaxy, wiping out ALL THE OTHER Jedi is the impact he had. But he is still just a pawn. Yes Later on he fullfills his destiny and does something to significantly change the galaxy, but again, he IS A PAWN. you've all built him up to much to see it. Thats the point, thats what makes the audience feel badly for Anakin, he is just a pawn in all of this, warped and confused by Palpatine like the rest of the Senate and Galaxy. Its sad. But that's the way it happened.
Originally posted by mephistodesigns
I think peoples brains can't handle the bad guys winning. And as GL has stated several times, in this film the bad guys win. On top of that, people can't seem to handle that Anakin was just a pawn, someone Palps needed to help him kill the Jedi. Killing Mace wasn't the big impact Ani had on the galaxy, wiping out ALL THE OTHER Jedi is the impact he had. But he is still just a pawn. Yes Later on he fullfills his destiny and does something to significantly change the galaxy, but again, he IS A PAWN. you've all built him up to much to see it. Thats the point, thats what makes the audience feel badly for Anakin, he is just a pawn in all of this, warped and confused by Palpatine like the rest of the Senate and Galaxy. Its sad. But that's the way it happened.
the baddies lost its a saga remember and i looked foward to palps winning but he shouldnt have killed gunray
Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav
ahh its so simple
so simple but so effective. I also believe sidios was a pawn of the force in order to make a revamp the jedi order. The force is with him in his conquest for power and to destroy the jedi order (most of it), but as soon as a young Luke begins to learn the ways of becoming Jedi the force is no longer with Sidios, he has to watch his power slip away. Suddenly his loyal apprentice is now encountering his son!!! his death star is defeated!!! He is getting screwed!! its because the force is no longer with him and its time for his purge and the rebirth of the Jedi. And who better for the rebirth than that of Luke skywalker, who is grandson to the force itself?
The balance of the force was restored by Anikin, and now the new birth if jedi comes into fruition with his son Luke.
Beautiful story