Palpatine and Mace Windu Debate [Merged]

Originally posted by mtryder
if what you say is true, then you must be able to refute the point that I originally made: If Palpatine didn't need Anakin, then the theme is destroyed and the Chosen One is made inconsequential. I've addressed all of your points, now you try addressing that one.

And about the balance thing, the equal jedi-to-sith thing is NOT balance. Take these points into consideration:

1) the only time that there was an equal number of sith and jedi was well after the events of ROTS, after the purge was complete. At that point there were two sith (Vader, Sidious) and two Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda). However, he later undoes this no less than TWO times, both by killing Obi-Wan and later by destroying himself and Sidious. So the fact that he "fulfills" that must be mere coincidence, since he "unfulfills" it numerous times thereafter.

2) If there can only be two Sith, then bringing balance by that incorrect definition would have to mean bringing the Jedi number to two. Considering that in the PT there were AT LEAST 30-40 Jedi hanging around, why would the Jedi be so fixated on training a guy who was destined to kill most of them? Clearly, that was not what the Prophecy meant.

One must simply look at how they use the Force. The Jedi are attuned to the force. They use it justly- in harmony with it. This is why Qui-Gon, the ultimate advocate of the living force, is granted immortality. The Jedi, in all respects, represent balance.

The Sith, on the other hand, quest to subjugate the force to their own desires. Where the force is a natural, balancing entity, they seek to wage war, destroy, and create life with it. This is clearly unbalanced from the natural order. Philosophically speaking, it's Cartesian views squaring off with Taoism.

man, I never said that was balance. the balance means destroying the sith because they unnaturally manipulate the force, the jedi live with in its flow. You don't even know what I've said and you expect me to believe you? ROTJ is where the CHOSEN ONE is important. That is THE GREAT THING HE DOES TO AFFECT THE GALAXY. He ENDS THE SITH. He brings balance to the force! what more do you want from him? In ROTS, hes still young, he's dumb, idealistic, and completely taken advantage of. Its not entirely his fault, he's just young and that is the tragedy of youth, another theme Lucas talks about on a regular basis.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
Are you talking to me here? I didn't realize this question had been asked. Here's what happened: Anakin needed to turn, but he needed to believe in Palpatine, he needed to feel Palpatine needed him in order for him to justify turning to himself. Palpatine set that whole thing up to allow Anakin to make up his own mind. Sure he could have just killed mace to impress Ani, but then Ani wouldn't learn nothin'. Ani came in, did his part that Palps set up for him, and it made Anakin believe Palps. He was still on the fence about what side to be on. Palps was trying to convince him that the Jedi wanted to take over and were in fact the evil ones. He does this by setting up a stiuation where Mace comes in and says "im gonna kill you, you're too dangerous to live" and the Ani says no, sees that what Palps has been telling him is "true" (at least from his view) and does what he thinks "helps" palpatine. That fits in perfectly with the themes, that he was taken advangtage of, and that certain situations were set up by Palps speciffically to make the universe look a certain way to Anakin, which would make Ani susceptable to Palps influence and point of view. Point of view being another very important theme through out the films. I'm shockied more people can't see this.

In which case Anakin, the CHOSEN ONE, would still be irrelevant to the outcome of the battle. If he turned, Mace died and Palpatine lived. If not, the same happened anyways. If this is true, then what's the point of Anakin? Why does Sidious need him? If he, as you've said, can defeat both Yoda and Mace, then what does he have to worry about? What's the point of Anakin? It's a good answer that you gave, but it still has that one crucial flaw.

If Mace would have destroyed Palpatine, then Anakin's two crucial decisions both start Palpatine's rise and end his reign. The duality of this, the thematic significance, is simply too great to be coincidence. While you've addressed many other points, you still have not addressed this one.

remember meph midway in any story the bad guys are winning. Episode three is only the first half man

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
man, I never said that was balance. the balance means destroying the sith because they unnaturally manipulate the force, the jedi live with in its flow. You don't even know what I've said and you expect me to believe you? ROTJ is where the CHOSEN ONE is important. That is THE GREAT THING HE DOES TO AFFECT THE GALAXY. He ENDS THE SITH. He brings balance to the force! what more do you want from him? In ROTS, hes still young, he's dumb, idealistic, and completely taken advantage of. Its not entirely his fault, he's just young and that is the tragedy of youth, another theme Lucas talks about on a regular basis.

I wasn't posting that at you. That was in reference to someone referring to destroying both the Sith and the Jedi as the representation of balance. It had nothing to do with you. In fact, I agree with almost everything that you said in that post, save that his actions in that fight had no bearing on his duel with Sidious.

Sidious needs him both as an insult to the Jedi that he now poses their Chosen One, their champion. And he needs him to be his enforcer and help kill the jedi off. Again, you've built him up to be more than he is. Anakin is only supposed to do one thing to complete his life's purpose, and he does just that in ROTJ. Hes not supposed to change the galaxy, just save the force from the Sith's manipulation. Which isn't a small insignificant feat. Its impressive, and it will go completely unnoticed to anyone in the galaxy other than Yoda, Ben, and Luke, and those Luke teaches. Thats whats so incredible, Ani is the thankless hero. he saves the galaxy and more importantly the force and they don't ever even know.

Originally posted by moviejunkie23
remember meph midway in any story the bad guys are winning. Episode three is only the first half man

duh, thats the point I"M pressing. why do i get so mis read? am I speaking huttese or som'n? I said, IN ROTS THE BAD GUYS WIN.

the light prevails

exactly.

YODA ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

what do you want you only supporrt yoda because he looks like a goblin

no because he is the BEST AND KICKS EVERYONES ASS

does he

YA HE DOES!!!!!!!!!!

dont you have a forest to protect

ICAN DO BOTH!!!!!!!!!

on topic please

YODA WINS ALL!!!!

Originally posted by Lord Follen
YODA WINS ALL!!!!

its true strong yoda is

Ha ha ha ha ha

Down the river ran

Originally posted by dadudemon

My reasoning:

From the article I just read...Anakin was just as good as Yoda or Sidious at saber skills...but a level 8, Obi, defeated him Anakin.

I call it Arrogance.

In episode II, Obi Wan would have been a level 7 or 8. When Obi Wan fights against Jango, he has a very difficult time fighting him. On Geonosis, (SP?) Mace easily defeats Jango in a matter of seconds.

Jango was fully armed while in geonosis has 1 gun left and the jetpack doesn't work anymore(Rhino).

The difference in power between Anakin and Obi is only 1 in saber skills and it took a long time to fight that battle. Obi was generally on the defensive in that fight but he still won. If Mace easily defeated Jango in a matter of seconds....while a battle was going on no less...it is quite apparent that Mace is a very high ranking 9...because he easily owns Sidious and Jango.

Obiwan has more experience and has a very good self-control while Ani don't. Again he don't own Sidious he felt for the trick.

he tried to play for his time as much as possible and used Anakin to save him. Mace has a unique, fighting style that I would place above even Yoda but still not a general 10 because there hasn't been a 10 yet.

Exactely. This is the way the dark side can play and it work. But forgive your 10 saber skill as for Windu; it isn't.

Also, I think it should be noted that Obi's ability is to overcome someone more powerful than he is because he defeats Maul and Anakin...who are both better than he is...or at least they are supposed to be better than he is.

As for Maul untrue. He owned and pawned Obiwan and Qui-gon all the fight and eventually defeat them both. Is just played too much arrogance with Obi which kill him in the end.