It almost looks like Yoda is trying to hold his own throughout the duel, and he's not strong enough to defeat Sidious, and Sidious is not strong enough to defeat him either, but then at the end he figures something out (almost like, idk a football coach suddenly realizing some play that will break the other team), or realized something, which he knows puts him over the top. To me that is what Yoda's look would signify.
I have used this arguement before, probably on page 4 of thist thread lol, but it's still applicable:
The VERY first thing Sidious does when Yoda walks in is try to run away. In my book, that means Sidious loses from the get-go and everything that happens after that is irrelevant.
In any event, the same logic that says Yoda loses because he runs away also would say that Sidious loses. The two at a MINIMUM cancel out and leave us to assess the rest of the duel to make our judgement.
Originally posted by Lord_Windu
How did Sidious overpower Yoda with the force? Sidious threw pods at Yoda, Yoda could throw them back. Sidious could use force lightning, Yoda could catch it with his bare hands. Sidious zapped Yoda with his force lightning, Yoda stood up and force pushed him over the table. I didn't see in any way how Sidious proved himself superior to Yoda force powerwise. As for Sidious being better than Yoda lightsaber skill wise. Bull crap. If Sidious was so much better with a lightsaber, why did he have to keep some distance away from Yoda and use force powers? I'm sure he was very eager to have Yoda dead. Why not just slice and dice him in five seconds?
Yoda Throw one while Sidious a dozen. Sidious lightning struck Yoda 1 second hit the wall hard and fell unconscious. Sidious could have kill Yoda while he was down. Yoda force push wasn't amazing contrary to Sid lightning. I never said Sidious was better than Yoda in saber skill, i've said they are equal. Sid fought Yoda with saber as long they were close to each other. Then while they were away, Sidious demonstrated his science again. Since Sith have more forcepowers than Jedi, it was natural that he use them to destabilize and or to kill Yoda. Sure Yoda can catch Sid lightning but he has some difficulties to contain it, then with so much build up of energy concentrated, the release was inevitable. Both get thrown away.
Originally posted by Lazerlike42Well, yeah I see what you're saying. Palpatine tried to run, which shows just how weak he is.
I have used this arguement before, probably on page 4 of thist thread lol, but it's still applicable:The VERY first thing Sidious does when Yoda walks in is try to run away. In my book, that means Sidious loses from the get-go and everything that happens after that is irrelevant.
In any event, the same logic that says Yoda loses because he runs away also would say that Sidious loses. The two at a MINIMUM cancel out and leave us to assess the rest of the duel to make our judgement.
I'd still say though that if Yoda thought he could beat Palpatine he would've kept fighting. But he says himself he "failed". He did fail. He failed to beat Palpatine. He wasn't strong enough to beat him... only to match him.
Originally posted by Emperor
Yoda Throw one while Sidious a dozen. Sidious lightning struck Yoda 1 second hit the wall hard and fell unconscious. Sidious could have kill Yoda while he was down. Yoda force push wasn't amazing contrary to Sid lightning. I never said Sidious was better than Yoda in saber skill, i've said they are equal. Sid fought Yoda with saber as long they were close to each other. Then while they were away, Sidious demonstrated his science again. Since Sith have more forcepowers than Jedi, it was natural that he use them to destabilize and or to kill Yoda. Sure Yoda can catch Sid lightning but he has some difficulties to contain it, then with so much build up of energy concentrated, the release was inevitable. Both get thrown away.
no, no, no, no, and NO
-Sidious did throw more pods than Yoda. People have said that Yoda was weaker and this is why he took a long time to throw the pod. This is incorrect. Yoda takes a long time because he is spinning it so that it will have more power, not because he needs more time to move them. Watch AOTC, and you will see in the duel with Dooku that Yoda can move objects with almost no effort (except the last one, which is only there as a cheap way to let Dooku escape).
-Sidious TRIED to kill Yoda while he was down, and Yoda got up and threw him across the room
-Yoda had trouble containing the lightning because it was the Sidious' BEST. It was the most power Sidious could ever, ever muster, and yet Yoda STILL held it back. In fact, he took that lightning and threw it back at Sidious, overpowering him
-There was no "release" of the lightning. What happened in that moment was Yoda taking Sidious' best attack and turning it around and throwing it back on him. This is more than obvious from Yoda and Sidious' expressions, especially Yoda's. You can see Yoda working hard, fending off the lightning, and then he realizes something, and he knows he has the upper hand, and he looks at Sidious with the expression, "take this." It's a very agressive, offensive look, NOT a defensive or neutral one. On top of this, immediately after this look is given, Sidious' expression turns from one of maniacle evil and fun to fear, surprise, and confusion. It is VERY IMPORTANT that Yoda's expression turns offensive and Sidious' defensive at the SAME TIME. This can only mean that Sidious is now on the defensive.
Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Well, yeah I see what you're saying. Palpatine tried to run, which shows just how weak he is.I'd still say though that if Yoda thought he could beat Palpatine he would've kept fighting. But he says himself he "failed". He did fail. He failed to beat Palpatine. He wasn't strong enough to beat him... only to match him.
Yoda's statement that he has failed does refer to his failure in the battle, but not as much as it does something else: his failure in general to prevent these events. This moment is the one in which he realizes all the errors that he (and the council as a whole) has made which allowed Palpatine to rise in power. He failed to keep with the will of the force. He failed to sense/see Palpatine for what he is. He failed to handle Anakin correctly. He failed to see the error of giving into war and using the army, and that this played into the hands of evil. The word "failed" encompasses all of this, much moreso than the fact that he failed to kill Sidious.
Also remember that the failure of one party to achieve victory does not neccesitate that the other party does in fact achieve victory. Anybody who's ever watched a game of hockey knows this. If the Bruins score 2 goals and the Devils score two goals, the Bruins can say they failed. That doesn't mean the Devils succeeded.
Originally posted by Lazerlike42Good point.
Someone else pointed out that Yoda runs because his saber is visibly damaged by the lightning, and as we know no amount of force power is a defense against a lightsaber, so that would be a good reason to run, given that Sidious still has his.Yoda's statement that he has failed does refer to his failure in the battle, but not as much as it does something else: his failure in general to prevent these events. This moment is the one in which he realizes all the errors that he (and the council as a whole) has made which allowed Palpatine to rise in power. He failed to keep with the will of the force. He failed to sense/see Palpatine for what he is. He failed to handle Anakin correctly. He failed to see the error of giving into war and using the army, and that this played into the hands of evil. The word "failed" encompasses all of this, much moreso than the fact that he failed to [B]kill
Sidious.Also remember that the failure of one party to achieve victory does not neccesitate that the other party does in fact achieve victory. Anybody who's ever watched a game of hockey knows this. If the Bruins score 2 goals and the Devils score two goals, the Bruins can say they failed. That doesn't mean the Devils succeeded. [/B]
I didn't notice his saber was damaged... I'll have to watch for that.
Though I agree.. his 'failure' is on many other (and more important) levels than just his failure to kill Sidious. This is something I was dissapointed to not really see addressed in the film directly... (which was probably cut with the Qui Gon scene).
Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Good point.I didn't notice his saber was damaged... I'll have to watch for that.
Though I agree.. his 'failure' is on many other (and more important) levels than just his failure to kill Sidious. This is something I was dissapointed to not really see addressed in the film directly... (which was probably cut with the Qui Gon scene).
Mace / Yoda Vs. Palpatine
I think Palpatine is more powerful than either Mace or Yoda, and that he was never in any real danger of losing to either one of them. Here's why:
(Novel)
The novel clearly states that Yoda recognizes he is incapable of defeating palpatine. In the same passage Yoda also acknowledges that he (Yoda) is the greatest Jedi master the council has ever known.
Mace therefore must be a lesser Jedi Master (by Yoda's reckoning).
(Movie)
It is conceivable that Mace legitimately bested Palpatine (only) in the swordplay. We do not know this though. Where we can presume Mace is fighting for his life to the best of his ability, we know that Palpatine has ulterior motives and has reasons to appear weaker than he really is. (In order to manipulate and turn Anakin).
However, after Palpatine lost his saber, he actually had the upper hand. This is evidenced by Mace begging Anakin for help. Again, Mace had no reason to feign weakness...he really did need Anakin's help. Palpatine, on the other hand, had a very good reason to feign weakness.
(Novel)
The novel describes the standoff from Mace's perspective when palp is unarmed and has mace locked up with lightning...Mace is unable to attack palp, and his own saber is inching closer and closer to his own body, and he's powerless to stop it. This is the point where he asks Anakin to help him.
Another point (from both movie and book) which implies that Palpatine is more powerful than Yoda is that Yoda's final strategy is simply to hide and wait for the skywalker twins to come of age. Yoda knows that this strategy will result in the dismantling of the Republic and the death of billions and the oppression of trillions, and the loss of all Jedi knowledge and archives into the hands of the sith. If he thought he had a chance in hell of killing him then their strategy would be based around setting up another assassination attempt...to avoid the continuing holocaust.