Oh like I said, Palpatine did NOT defeat Yoda in combat. I'm not like most people - though Palpatine is my favorite character - will I imply that he is perfect or pure "ownage".
But Yoda did NOT own Palpatine, either.
Guys, as for the "cheatin'", you have to understand. Yoda and Palpatine did not sit down before the fight to discuss what Force Powers or tactics could be used.
Yoda came to the Senate building, incapacited Palpatine's henchmen. Palpatine mocked him and electrocuted him, and sent him flying across the room. A few minutes later, Yoda got up and Force pushed Palpatine across the room. Palpatine got back up moments later, and realized "I MIGHT not beat this one".
Remember what Palpatine told Anakin in the Galactic Theatre? "All who gain power are AFRAID to lose it." Palpatine was no exception. He did not know if he could beat Yoda. So he tried to flee. Yoda confronted him and retrieved his lightsabre.
I mean come on. If you're the President of The United States or something, and an assassin renders your Secret Service unconscious, are you gonna stand there and "fight with him honorably" or run? Yeah, I'd bet you all do what I would do. And run.
So. Palpatine sees that he has to fight Yoda. And HE DOES. He does not whine. He does not beg. HE FIGHTS. Yoda DOES NOT live up to what you all make him, and easily defeat or OWN Palpatine. And Palpatine DOES NOT live up to what some people make him out to be, and OWN Yoda.
Now, I don't care what you say here. Palpatine is obviously more tactically skilled than Yoda (come on, if you TAKEOVER the GALAXY under the noses of HUNDREDS of FORCE-WIELDING JEDI, you're clearly a LOT SMARTER than they are).
So, he uses his greatest asset (no, not Force lightning) to his advantages. From what I see, he goes on the defensive and gives ground to Yoda, and backs up. He elevates himself to the Senate arena. He intentionally gains the higher ground. He uses his leverage and his Force Powers (which are NOT weak) to remove Senate pods from their attatchments and toss them at Yoda.
Yoda barely dodges all of these. Then he catches one, spins it, and tosses it back.
Now. I've seen in some arguments, people say "Well if Palpatine's all powerful, he could do the same.". Ehem. Yeah, well, I could say, "If Yoda was more powerful than Palpatine, he would've not been electrocuted in the first place, would've killed him, and The Empire would've never happened." Ehem. Got y'all there.
😄
Now. Palpatine and Yoda fight once more on a Senate pod. Palpatine encroaches (moves in) on Yoda, and Yoda is keeping Palpatine's lightning at bay.
Palpatine and Yoda both don't realize that the Force energies are about to explode (I say BOTH of them didn't know, because I doubt Yoda wanted to blow himself across the room, either). It does. Both are knocked flying.
Palpatine, obviously physically stronger than Yoda (Yoda is smaller, shorter, and old as well), catches onto a pod, whereas Yoda is blown half way across the room. His grip is weaker, and he falls.
And to put an end to popular belief, Dooku is a superior duelist to Mace. I don't know where that came up, but I saw mentions of Mace being a better duelist than Yoda.
Yoda seemed to be a slightly superior duelist to Dooku. And by the way, if you WANT PROOF that states Dooku is a superior duelist to Mace...
Go to the official Star Wars site. Then look up Mace Windu's biography. Click on the Expanded Universe section. You'll see this:
"Mace is regarded as one of the finest swordsmen the Jedi Order has ever produced. In his lifetime, only two duelists have bested him in combat. Yoda and Dooku."
😄
Originally posted by A Dark Side Fan
Now, I don't care what you say here. Palpatine is obviously more tactically skilled than Yoda (come on, if you TAKEOVER the GALAXY under the noses of HUNDREDS of FORCE-WIELDING JEDI, you're clearly a LOT SMARTER than they are).So, he uses his greatest asset (no, not Force lightning) to his advantages. From what I see, he goes on the defensive and gives ground to Yoda, and backs up. He elevates himself to the Senate arena. He intentionally gains the higher ground. He uses his leverage and his Force Powers (which are NOT weak) to remove Senate pods from their attatchments and toss them at Yoda.
Yoda barely dodges all of these. Then he catches one, spins it, and tosses it back.
Now. I've seen in some arguments, people say "Well if Palpatine's all powerful, he could do the same.". Ehem. Yeah, well, I could say, "If Yoda was more powerful than Palpatine, he would've not been electrocuted in the first place, would've killed him, and The Empire would've never happened." Ehem. Got y'all there.
😄Now. Palpatine and Yoda fight once more on a Senate pod. Palpatine encroaches (moves in) on Yoda, and Yoda is keeping Palpatine's lightning at bay.
Palpatine and Yoda both don't realize that the Force energies are about to explode (I say BOTH of them didn't know, because I doubt Yoda wanted to blow himself across the room, either). It does. Both are knocked flying.
Palpatine, obviously physically stronger than Yoda (Yoda is smaller, shorter, and old as well), catches onto a pod, whereas Yoda is blown half way across the room. His grip is weaker, and he falls.
NO
What happens to Palpatine is not a simple matter of the force energy exploding. Watch it. Look at the expressions on their faces. It begins with Palpatine looking happy and maniacle, and Yoda seeming defensive. Suddenly, and the film makes this VERY clear and takes great efforts to focus on this, Yoda looks at Palpatine with the look of "take this." It is the same look Luke gives Jabba, and the same look Obi-Wan gives Maul before he kills him (and after the look of simple concentration, which is not what I refer to). It is the same look Palpatine gives Mace before he fries him. It is the "now you're gonna get it" look. At the same instant, Palpatine's maniacal laughter changes to fear and shock, and he takes on a defensive look. Yoda took all of the force energy and threw it at Palpatine, it did not simply explode. He fell back because of the kickback, the same kickback one experiences from firing a rifle. Simple Newtonian physics requires the kickback.
There is NO possibility that it was anything other than Yoda attacking Sidious given their respective looks. Given any other explanations, their looks are completely pointless and would fit the scene about as well as Vader doing an Irish jig and yelling "Yippee!" when Sidious tells him Padme dies.
Originally posted by astrofan428
http://s48.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1F6SS8AOV2DAF21XLQB5LTLH3Z
Bumping to help back up lazer's point.
Originally posted by A Dark Side Fan
Lazer, unless you're George Lucas himself I highly doubt you have any authority or any grounds other than perception to deny my own theory. 🙂
Look at the link that Astrofan posted. Watch it. Then try to explain to me why those to characters look the way they do without saying that Yoda went on the offensive.
If your perception is that Yoda was not the aggresor at the end of that fight, than your perception may as well be that Leia enjoyed it when Jabba stuck his tongue out at her.
When my girlfriend says I love you I don't laugh, when my dog died I didn't cheer, when I am winning or drawing a fight I don't look afraid, and neither does Palpatine.
I've read all your comments, Lazer. And it is people like you - the people who so strongly write their beliefs that are dripping with pure bias.
Tell me.
If Yoda was more powerful than Palpatine, why did Yoda not sense that Palpatine and Sidious were one in the same BEFORE all of this happened?
If Yoda was more powerful than Palpatine, then why didn't Yoda KILL Palpatine in the assassination attempt? (and do NOT say it was the Troopers. They showed up AFTER Yoda fled the building).
If Yoda was more powerful, then how, pray-tell did The Galactic Empire rise?
I have stressed and stressed the very fact that both are powerful individuals and both are EQUAL.
Yet you think otherwise. Give me legitimate proof to support your point.
Originally posted by Lazerlike42
I have used this arguement before, probably on page 4 of thist thread lol, but it's still applicable:The VERY first thing Sidious does when Yoda walks in is try to run away. In my book, that means Sidious loses from the get-go and everything that happens after that is irrelevant.
In any event, the same logic that says Yoda loses because he runs away also would say that Sidious loses. The two at a MINIMUM cancel out and leave us to assess the rest of the duel to make our judgement.
This quote especially. Read that to yourself.
So, Lazer. You're saying, because Sidious tried to flee - and was STOPPED mind you - because he didn't know of he could overpower Yoda, that he automatically loses? Even though Yoda STOPPED him from fleeing, they fought, and Yoda laments that he failed?
Armed with that, you're saying Palpatine lost because he ATTEMPTED to flee?
Lol. You just lost all credibility in my book.
If you had read any of the other pages in this thread you would see that many of those points have been addressed.
To summarize, Yoda left because of three reasons:
A) His lightsaber was broken. No level of force use is a defense against a lightsaber. Evidence: among other scenes, Dooku's battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin at the end of AOTC and Sidious' inability to use force lightning against a lightsaber armed Mace Windu (something GL HAS confirmed).
B) He had taken a major fall from the kickback and got the worst of it. He was clearly shaken by the fall.
C) The TROOPERS WERE COMING. At the very least Yoda senses it, and I believe it has been stated in this thread that their footsteps are clearly audible when Yoda lands on the ground. He heard them coming and left.
Why did Yoda and the council not sense what was going on? Why did the empire rise? This has been addressed here and in plenty of other threads.
A) Yoda states in AOTC that the dark side is clouding their vision. Their ability to use the force is diminished.
B) The Jedi order was not in tune with the force and was far too political. They relied too much on secular resources and not enough on the force. QGJ corrects this error when he trains Yoda and Obi-Wan in the interim between ROTS and ANH. This lack of tune prevents them from noticing things as they should.
C) Palpatine had millions of clones genetically programmed to kill all the Jedi. No level of power in a Jedi can defeat millions of troopers. This is what allows the empire to rise. Watto could have overthrown the Jedi and taken over the galaxy if he had ordered such an army which was programmed to be loyal to him.
The battle between Yoda and Palpatine was a draw, but only because of Yoda's poor luck. If the battle had continued, if he had not lost his lightsaber, if he had not taken a hard fall, every indication was that he would have triumphed, because he was beginning to overpower Sidious.
I would also state that in an organized debate of any kind, you would now be losing. You have not answered my question, instead you have posed more to me, which I have answered. Whether you accept my answers is irrelevant until you answer my questions, at which point we may evaluate the value of each our answers. Answering a question with more questions is taken by the majority of people, those who professionally score debates as a failure to support one's arguement, as well as by law in the United States as a support for the opposing arguement.
I therefore ask you respond to my questions as well as this additional one: If Sidious was at LEAST equal to Yoda, why did he try and run away at the beginning of the duel, especially given that his goal was to kill all the Jedi? Why did he not kill Yoda himself when he had a golden oppurtunity when Yoda had been struck down?