Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
I think that if Yoda was more powerful than Sidious he'd have been able to overpower Sid without falling several hundred feet. He didn't. He was not strong enough. And neither was Sidious strong enough to defeat Yoda.Why do I feel like I've said this same thing a hundred times?
F=MA. Newtonian physics. Even a Jedi cannot overcome these.
Originally posted by A Dark Side FanLazer makes some very good points...
This quote especially. Read that to yourself.So, Lazer. You're saying, because Sidious tried to flee - and was STOPPED mind you - because he didn't know of he could overpower Yoda, that he automatically loses? Even though Yoda STOPPED him from fleeing, they fought, and Yoda laments that he failed?
Armed with that, you're saying Palpatine lost because he ATTEMPTED to flee?
Lol. You just lost all credibility in my book.
Though I wouldn't say he lost by trying to run. A 'loser' maybe, but he didn't lose. If ya get my point.
You're basically saying that the entire reason Yoda retreated was because of circumstance. Lol. That's like saying that if Yoda and Palpatine were fighting on a cliff, and Yoda fell, you'd excuse Yoda's failure due in part that the cliff somehow "interfered" with the fight.
Unbelievable.
Oh yeah, and I did comment on why Sidious tried to flee. You just don't seem to recall me saying...
"Palpatine was not sure that he could overpower Yoda".
Like I said. Palpatine and Yoda are equal. But Palpatine - who gained all this power - had never faced Yoda - and was not sure if he could obtain victory.
Originally posted by A Dark Side Fan
You have basically said, Lazer, that the entire FIGHT was IRRELEVANT in actually determining the victor of the FIGHT is. Palpatine lost because he attempted to flee. Lol. Poor choice of words on your part.
Read it in context. That arguement was in response to another arguement that said that Yoda automatically lost because he ran away. My arguement was that Sidious also tried to run, so he should be given a loss by the same logic. My point was further that since they both tried to flee (just because Sidious was stopped and Yoda was succesfull it does not change the fact that both took the same action), that their attempts to excape balance out and we must use the remainder of the fight to make the judgement, and therefore Yoda does not lose simply because he left. A very well thought out battle strategy is to leave and regroup. It happens all the time in the real world. Kirk did it in WOK. Riker did it in Best of Both Worlds. (I know, Start Trek I know). This is all Yoda does.
Also, read further back and you will see my (and many others'😉 statements that Yoda's statement of failure was in reference to letting Sidious gain power, not the outcome of the duel (more details are provided in prior posts on this matter.)
Oh Lazer seems highly intelligent. And yes, he does make good points, especially regarding Palpatine's attempt to flee.
BUT. He is blaming Yoda's failure on circumstance. That's inexcusable. He lost.
So, Lazer. Let me ask you. Answer me these, if you would not mind, please.
1. Are you saying Palpatine is not powerful, or just not as powerful as Yoda?
2. Are you saying or IMPLYING that Palpatine's skills in the Dark Side were not strong enough to blind the Jedi?
3. Are you saying the rise of The Galactic Empire was due to circumstance?
Originally posted by A Dark Side Fan
You're basically saying that the entire reason Yoda retreated was because of circumstance. Lol. That's like saying that if Yoda and Palpatine were fighting on a cliff, and Yoda fell, you'd excuse Yoda's failure due in part that the cliff somehow "interfered" with the fight.Unbelievable.
Oh yeah, and I did comment on why Sidious tried to flee. You just don't seem to recall me saying...
"Palpatine was not sure that he could overpower Yoda".
Like I said. Palpatine and Yoda are equal. But Palpatine - who gained all this power - had never faced Yoda - and was not sure if he could obtain victory.
He had never faced Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, or tweedle dee and tweedle dum, either. He chose to take on FOUR Jedi HEAD ON, including Mace Windu, who was either the first or second most powerful Jedi alive, depending on your belief. If he felt confident in that battle, there is NO reason he should not feel confident attacking Yoda.
Originally posted by A Dark Side Fan
Oh Lazer seems highly intelligent. And yes, he does make good points, especially regarding Palpatine's attempt to flee.BUT. He is blaming Yoda's failure on circumstance. That's inexcusable. He lost.
So, Lazer. Let me ask you. Answer me these, if you would not mind, please.
1. Are you saying Palpatine is not powerful, or just not as powerful as Yoda?
2. Are you saying or IMPLYING that Palpatine's skills in the Dark Side were not strong enough to blind the Jedi?
3. Are you saying the rise of The Galactic Empire was due to circumstance?
Palpatine was at a maximum equal in power to Yoda. The duel was a stalemate, and their powers seem also to have been equal. I personally believe he was a little weaker, because of the last portion of the battle, as well as the fact that Vader treated him like a rag doll in ROTJ, but if you wish to say they were equal I have no problem with that.
Palpatine's skills in the dark side WERE strong enough to blind the Jedi. That is why Yoda says the dark side has clouded things. I believe the fact that the Jedi Order was very out of tune with the force allowed Palpatine to do this and that if they were sticking to their ideals and the will of the force as did QGJ, tehy would have seen what was going on, but his skills were very good and he did blind the order with his power there is no arguement there.
The rise of the galactic empire was due to Sidious' intelligence and ability to look forward. Like I said, if Watto had had the idea (and money) to make an army of millions that was genetically programmed to be loyal to him and kill the Jedi, he would have been able to rule the Galaxy. It is not circumstances that allowed this to happen. It was a very well thought out plan.
I DO believe that had Yoda not fallen he would have won, however I am not certain what this would have meant. It is possible that without Palpatine's rule, the clones would have stopped their aggression, or possibly taken orders from some second in command, perhaps a powerful senator like Bail or Padme. In this case they may have been instructed to stop. It's also possible that if Sidious and Vader both died that day, the clones would have kept on their rampage until all the Jedi were dead anyways.
Originally posted by A Dark Side Fan
Wow. This is the first implication I've ever seen you give that Palpatine is a figure that is powerful. Bravo. We're gaining progress.
I have never said he was not powerful. He was very powerful.
My only point is that I do not believe he would have won had the duel with Yoda been somewhere else, or had Yoda not fallen, or whatnot. I feel that in the last moment of the duel Yoda gains the upper edge and realizes something, some way to combat Sidious' force power, and this is why he glares at him with the "you're gonna get it now" look.
The problem above all was his lack of the lightsaber. Yoda is not a dark force user. His only means of attack is the lightsaber. He has no force attack. "A Jedi uses the force only for defense, NEVER attack." If he had his saber, he could stab Sidious. Without it, he could only be on the defensive. He can't lightning Sidious, nor can he choke him. Without the lightsaber, Yoda is helpless when it comes to attack (but not defense).
Now that was what I was looking for.
Now, Lazer, perhaps I can agree with you. PERHAPS Yoda would've won. But you made it - to me - sound like it'd be easy. I can assure you. If Yoda was meant to win that duel it WOULD NOT be easy for him. AT ALL.
And that is what I wanted to see. Clearly Yoda is your favorite amongst these two. But Palpatine was perhaps the greatest Sith Lord - I don't mean most powerful but GREATEST (he was the only one to accomplish their goals).
Yoda is arguably the greatest Jedi. And he's pretty darn powerful, too.
But no. Yoda and Palpatine are a great deal beyond their opponents. I think Yoda was a little better in lightsabre combat whereas I think Palpatine was better in Force powers (lightning, his ability to see into the future, his implied Battle Meditation, and his ability to carry his subconscious into a clone).
Now, I'll be going. I think I've reached an equal opinion, Lazer.
Oh. But one thing.
In an April (I believe) issue of Vanity Fair, George Lucas said that Vader - in his suit - only had 80 percent of the Emperor's power.
Hence why Vader also DIED in the attempt to kill Palpatine, when Palpatine was intent on torturing Luke. If they had faced one another, Palps would've won.
No light side user can do any of that stuff. He didn't have trouble with Dooku, either. I could be wrong but it seemed as though Yoda was actually "toying" with Dooku and testing him out to see how good he was. I only say I could be wrong because a Jedi would not toy with someone, but on the other hand he may have been trying to see how good he was to see if he was as Sith, was an apprentice or the lord, and things of that nature. In any case I'm pretty sure Dooku was on the defensive during that duel, and the only reason he was able to be as succesful as he was was that he mastered a unique and powerful form of lightsaber combat.