logic seems to have no place for the pro Mace argument. There are several logical questions they seem to be ignoring.
Mainly--why would Palps gamble a thousand years worth of planning on Anakin returning if he didn't have a back up plan?
2. Palps has controled everything else about the war up until that point, so again, why would he not have a concrete plan for dealing with a potential (almost enivitable) encounter with Mace and/or Yoda?
Mace camp is without logic?
Palpatine lost his lightsaber, we all saw that.
Mace blocked his lightning at first and could have struck him down already, with how fast Mace moved it would be hard for Palp to stop him. Palp was counting on Anakin to save him. He would not have survived without him. Besides your whole faking it argument has no basis except for the part where he says "I'm so weak, so weak." Now i agree he was faking that but the rest of the fight? Hell no.
no sith crawls from an opponent whimpering unless he had something up his sleeve. He has allowed things to be lost to allow an enemy to think they have the upper hand in the past. Look at ROTJ, he allows the Rebels to think they've stolen the plans to the second Death Star, when in fact he let them take it so they'd attack what was ACTUALLY a fully armed station ready to kick some ass. He set things up to appear to loose so he can exploit them, he did it to Dooku, the TF, he's done it a lot. He very well may have lost his saber for the sheer fact that he wanted Ani to THINK he was defenseless, which he clearly wasn't seeing as he can yell Ultimate POWER and blast Mace with enough Lightening to power New Jersey.
I agree that he was faking how weak he was back then.
But think of it like this, he lost his lightsaber.
Dooku and Yoda still fought with lightsabers becuase they thought that the force alone could decide a clear winner in that fight. Palpatine could no longer fight, he needed his lightning to do the job, and we have all seen that can be blocked with a lightsaber and if your Yoda with your bare hands.
Becuase Mace isn't all that weaker then Yoda he could block it with his lightsaber it may have been hard but he could have done it. How could Sidious have won when he was there on the ground? How could he have won? Please tell me, I want to know.
And he lost the lightsaber fight, nobody can argue that, Anakin wasn't even around when he lost the lightsaber fight, his lightsaber got kicked out of his hands. Kicked, for crying out load.
Besides he crawled back before Anakin arrived, why would he do that? Did he hope Mace would stand there with his lightsaber in his hands just pointing at him until Anakin would finally arive? Come on thats just bullshit
Sids lost in a fair duel against mace and he would have lost against yoda if he hadnt fallen down mace kicked his a.. and so did yoda. And i hated the noise sids was making in his duel against mace and the other jedi masters it was Nasty with a capital N. To be honest i thought dooku dueling style was ten times better than sids and i thought his character was wasted, i would have rather seen grievious die first rather than dooku because that character was crap you cant really call him a duelist obi cut of his hands in 5seconds whoppe what a great duelist.
okay first of all, dooku wanted to beat yoda to show his supremecy and because they SEEMED evenly matched in force abilities. Dooku still had a sense of honor.
Palpatine plays to win.
You say how could Sidious of won if he were on the ground? Oh gee I don't know...maybe spring up with all this strength, blast mace with lightening and yell Ultimate power to let Mace know Palps was always in control of that situation and Mace and the Jedi were always going to loose. How can you even ask "how can he win" when we SAW HIM WIN!
I think you're missing the bigger picture saying he "lost the lightsaber fight". That wasn't the point. Palps lost it so that when Ani walked in, he would think Mace was about to commit murder, he has no idea what Palps can and is about to do. The whole point of Palps' set up is to make it look as though he'd lost, and then let Ani think he helped him in some way. Ani has to turn on his own, Palps can show him the Dark Side, but Anakin still has to willingly turn. If Palps doesn't make it look like he's lost, Anakin won't sympathize, and more importantly, won't think the Jedi have gone nuts as Palps said. So Palps throws the saber fight, let's Mace think he's winning, exploiting Mace's overconfidence (which the rebels will in turn do to Palps at the end of ROTJ, see its a running theme). The Ani comes in, says whoa, we aren't murders, comes to agree with palps, and helps him, thus willingly turning to the Dark Side. At that point, Palps deception involving Mace is no longer needed, so he kicks Mace's butt. Much like a cat playing with its prey until its finally decided to kill it.
You can't say "oh but he lost the saber fight" because a) he threw it on purpose for reasons i've just explained, and b) because thats like watching kick boxing and two guys get into a punching match, one is winning, then the other kicks him in the head, knocking him out. Now sure the first guy was winning when it was just punching, but then he got kicked in the head and lost the fight. Fights aren't over until they're over. And in this case, it was never really even a fight. It was all a set up, just like how the clone wars weren't really a war because Palps/Sids controled both sides at once. It wasn't even a real fight. Thats the joke. Mace was never going to win.
So you are saying Palps would throw away his lightsaber and put himself in a vulnerable possition before Anakin showed up?
What if Mace would have tried to kill him immediately his entire plan failed, to much of what you say is guessing and depends on chance. Palpatine was to smart for something like that, he hoped Anakin would come along. He hoped Anakin would support him and I do believe that he started losing more when Anakin walked in but he lost before that too..
And you still haven't answered my questions from my last post, read it again then debate that. Stop saying the same thing as if they are facts but actually proof me wrong
if mace had moved to kill him, he would have done his finishing move earlier, and had to find another way to turn ani. luckily, Palps uses the force to see into the future, the force no doubt told him Ani would return so he didn't sweat it. So to answer your question, Palps would have just fried mace and thrown him out the window sooner.
Originally posted by palpy_666
For the dummies that think Palpatine sucked-- let's use some examples here, shall we? Didn't we all witness Palpatine strike dead THREE very powerful Jedi Masters all at once in under ten seconds? Show me a Jedi that could knock out any of the two current Sith at the same time in under ten seconds.
Yes that bit had me thinking how they hell couldnt they block it. I heard palp was supposed to be fast but he wasnt he was extremly slow.
Originally posted by Fishy
I agree that he was faking how weak he was back then.But think of it like this, he lost his lightsaber.
Dooku and Yoda still fought with lightsabers becuase they thought that the force alone could decide a clear winner in that fight. Palpatine could no longer fight, he needed his lightning to do the job, and we have all seen that can be blocked with a lightsaber and if your Yoda with your bare hands.
Becuase Mace isn't all that weaker then Yoda he could block it with his lightsaber it may have been hard but he could have done it. How could Sidious have won when he was there on the ground? How could he have won? Please tell me, I want to know.
And he lost the lightsaber fight, nobody can argue that, Anakin wasn't even around when he lost the lightsaber fight, his lightsaber got kicked out of his hands. Kicked, for crying out load.
Besides he crawled back before Anakin arrived, why would he do that? Did he hope Mace would stand there with his lightsaber in his hands just pointing at him until Anakin would finally arive? Come on thats just bullshit
okay lets see, I covered the first paragraph, I convered the second, the third i covered. So the only thing you still need to know is why did he crawl away before Ani came? Simple, to get into the position he was when Ani arrived. He had to be on his back, weaponless, with Mace over him, ready to slice him up for Ani to see. I've covered all of this. Maybe its my posts YOU need to re-read. As my last very LONG one coverring the intricasies of this scene you've completely neglected to answer for.
Fishy, I want you to read this again, slowly and carefully. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm serious. This really does cover all your questions. It covers why he allows his lightsaber to be taken from him, why he'd crawl into position before Ani arrives, and most importantly, why he'd do all these things, ie--the significance of why he WOULD allow such things to happen.
Originally posted by mephistodesigns
You say how could Sidious of won if he were on the ground? Oh gee I don't know...maybe spring up with all this strength, blast mace with lightening and yell Ultimate power to let Mace know Palps was always in control of that situation and Mace and the Jedi were always going to loose. How can you even ask "how can he win" when we SAW HIM WIN!I think you're missing the bigger picture saying he "lost the lightsaber fight". That wasn't the point. Palps lost it so that when Ani walked in, he would think Mace was about to commit murder, he has no idea what Palps can and is about to do. The whole point of Palps' set up is to make it look as though he'd lost, and then let Ani think he helped him in some way. Ani has to turn on his own, Palps can show him the Dark Side, but Anakin still has to willingly turn. If Palps doesn't make it look like he's lost, Anakin won't sympathize, and more importantly, won't think the Jedi have gone nuts as Palps said. So Palps throws the saber fight, let's Mace think he's winning, exploiting Mace's overconfidence (which the rebels will in turn do to Palps at the end of ROTJ, see its a running theme). The Ani comes in, says whoa, we aren't murders, comes to agree with palps, and helps him, thus willingly turning to the Dark Side. At that point, Palps deception involving Mace is no longer needed, so he kicks Mace's butt. Much like a cat playing with its prey until its finally decided to kill it.
You can't say "oh but he lost the saber fight" because a) he threw it on purpose for reasons i've just explained, and b) because thats like watching kick boxing and two guys get into a punching match, one is winning, then the other kicks him in the head, knocking him out. Now sure the first guy was winning when it was just punching, but then he got kicked in the head and lost the fight. Fights aren't over until they're over. And in this case, it was never really even a fight. It was all a set up, just like how the clone wars weren't really a war because Palps/Sids controled both sides at once. It wasn't even a real fight. Thats the joke. Mace was never going to win.
I've read it, but your entire theory depends on one thing.
Palps looking weak when Anakin would walk in, I can accept that, if it had any basis in the movie that is.
Lets just put some facts in a row
Yoda and Palpatine are about equal in force powers, Yoda slightly superior as seen in the movie and Yoda still tried using a lightsaber to finish Sidious. He left when his lightsaber was gone because he knew he couldn't win anymore.
Yoda fought Dooku and continued fighting with his lightsaber because he knew he could not win with the force alone, meaning lightsabers are needed in a duel against somebody with a great control of the force.
Obi managed to block Dooku his lightning with his lightsaber, it was weaker then Sids his lightning but Obi was a lot weaker then Mace too. Besides Dooku wasn't all that much weaker then Sidious.
Now when you look at that wouldn't it seem that you would need a lightsaber to fight against somebody that is more then a good Jedi? Wouldn't you think that as seen in the movies Mace can block Sidious his attacks? Don't you think that Sidious would need a lightsaber to defeat Mace? Sidious may be good but he is no god.
Tell me how come Sidious is so much more powerful then any of those people and would still say Anakin would surpass him soon, and why he would still try to run from Yoda? If he really has god like powers he has no reason to do or think so.
Originally posted by xeous
Mace is a *****, of course he was faking.
Sidious ran from Yoda, so that makes Sidious the obvious pussy here.
I have been saying in other threads that Sidious was controlling the situation but only after he got beaten by Mace Windu in the lightsabre fight. Sidious wasnt 'playing' around with Mace Windu when they were fighting with their lightsabre's. Remember, Sidious is a Sith and the Sith hate the Jedi. Sidious wouldv'e struck Mace Windu down if he could have ,like he did with the other three worthless Jedi on the floor.
Go back, see the movie, read the novel, I dont care. To quote the novel, Sidious says "I have been waiting for this for a very long time." Clearly meaning he was waiting to cut into some JEdi and start the Jedi purge.
Sidious was not playing around with Mace Windu. You people need to start giving Mace Windu some credit and realize that the great and powerful Sith Lord of the galaxy for bested with the lightsabre by the Koran Master.
Originally posted by mephistodesigns
Fishy, I want you to read this again, slowly and carefully. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm serious. This really does cover all your questions. It covers why he allows his lightsaber to be taken from him, why he'd crawl into position before Ani arrives, and most importantly, why he'd do all these things, ie--the significance of why he WOULD allow such things to happen.
Funny ... I thought he lost his lightsabre when MACE kicked it out of his hand.
So two kickboxers are going at it and all of a sudden a fan of the losing kickboxer grabs a chair, jumps into the ring and hits the other kickboxer on the head with the chair making him defenseless. THEN the losing kickboxer starts kick the crap out of the stunned kickboxer and wins. Thats not a win bud ... and irt doesnt fit what happened with Sidious and MAce.The whole kickboxing analogy doesnt work. Simply because it wasnt just Mace and Sidiuos. Anakin stepped in and messed it all up.
Perception: Sidious is an all-knowing, all-mighty dark god. Everything that happens does so because that's how he wanted it.
Fact: Sidious is intelligent, powerful and a master of manipulation. But he is HUMAN. He makes mistakes, he loses fights, he can and does screw up. He did not plan for his first apprentice to get sliced & diced, he did not know Anakin and Padme would fall in love, did not plan to get his face melted off etc. He is very good at turning things to his advantage but he is fallible. The fact that he can fail at something just makes him more impressive when he succeeds. Makes him more real.
People bought into hype. The fact is he LOST to both Mace and Yoda because they are better at what they do.
Plus the movie is about ANAKIN. His choices and his actions. If he had done what he should have, the galaxy would have been safe. If Sid's had been pretending, Anakin is reduced to just a bystander. The focus of the story would not be on him.
Originally posted by Fishy
I've read it, but your entire theory depends on one thing.Palps looking weak when Anakin would walk in, I can accept that, if it had any basis in the movie that is.
Lets just put some facts in a row
Yoda and Palpatine are about equal in force powers, Yoda slightly superior as seen in the movie and Yoda still tried using a lightsaber to finish Sidious. He left when his lightsaber was gone because he knew he couldn't win anymore.
Yoda fought Dooku and continued fighting with his lightsaber because he knew he could not win with the force alone, meaning lightsabers are needed in a duel against somebody with a great control of the force.
Obi managed to block Dooku his lightning with his lightsaber, it was weaker then Sids his lightning but Obi was a lot weaker then Mace too. Besides Dooku wasn't all that much weaker then Sidious.
Now when you look at that wouldn't it seem that you would need a lightsaber to fight against somebody that is more then a good Jedi? Wouldn't you think that as seen in the movies Mace can block Sidious his attacks? Don't you think that Sidious would need a lightsaber to defeat Mace? Sidious may be good but he is no god.
Tell me how come Sidious is so much more powerful then any of those people and would still say Anakin would surpass him soon, and why he would still try to run from Yoda? If he really has god like powers he has no reason to do or think so.
You don't need a light saber to kill someone WHEN YOU CAN THROW THEM OUT THE WINDOW WITH LIGHTENING!!! That's like saying I can't kill you by throwing you off a building, I have to use a gun. Thats retarded. MACE DIED BECAUSE HE WAS THROWN OUT THE WINDOW FROM THE FORCE. Thats a motherf'in' fact my friend. You can speculate about power all day long but all the air you waste still can't change that MACE IS DEAD because PALPS KILLED HIM.
I like how all of your "facts" are purely opinions that appear no where onscreen, where as I have broken down each moment of the fight to show how it was meant to have an effect on Anakin. So you think Palps wasn't supposed to look weak in front of Ani so he'd have to make a choice? Lets have a poll on that so you can see how SOOOOO totally off you are. That was ALL that scene depended on, it was THE SCENE when Ani finally turned to the Dark Side. You SERIOUSLY need to go watch the film again before I take anything you say seriously again. I mean man, you're sooo off on this its not even funny. You just keep spouting opinion with no screen evidence, where ALL of my analysis has been from what we can see, not what we can infer. You have no concept of debate, seeing as your whole arguement depends on someone accepting your evidence, which is ALL opinion, as fact.
FACT: Palps lost his saber.
FACT: Mace stood over him at the moment Ani walks in.
FACT: Anakin tries to convince Mace not to kill Palps.
FACT: Mace says hes gonna kill him.
FACT: Anakin stops that from happening.
FACT: Mace is then thrown from the window by lightening thrown from a clearly NOT DEFENSELESS Palpatine.
FACT: Anakin now agrees with Palpatine that the Jedi want to take over and joins the Dark Side.