Lets get this straight i know we have already done this but this will end it

This is very illogical ... relook at the movie carefully .... firstly to say that Palpatine was faking the fight because he KNEW Anakin was going to arrive and kill Mace is really really illogical ... because there are so many possibilities for things to get screwed up in this plan ... first of all, what if Anakin had arrived on the scene 60 seconds later than he did ?
It's unambiguously clear that Mace had defeated him .... he clearly and unambiguously had his lightsabre at a prostrate Palpatine's throat, and ALL of Palpatine's lightning wasn't enough to knock him off or make him retreat ... he took all that lightning and reflected it back ... now ... if at THIS moment Anakin wasn't there .... Palpatine would have been killed ... that is totally UNAMBIGUOUS .... to state that Palpatine wasn't using his full power is folly .... because he is depending on TWO factors that could go either way for or against him ... ONE : That Anakin arrives on time ... and TWO : He makes the decision to injure Mace Windu and stop him from finishing Palpatine off .... both these factors could go either way .... we definitely see Anakin's conflict inside himself ... he isn't totally ready to kill Mace until the very last second ... and even after he had injured Mace ... he still is filled with remorse ...

Palpatine's character is a master manipulator like a clever chess player ... it would be folly to suggest that he would risk the success of his whole scheme on two factors that could as easily go against him as for him ... the fact of the matter is ... like Chilled Monkey said ... this movie is about Anakin's choices .... if his choice had been the opposite to what he actually does in the story ... than it is quite UNAMBIGUOUS in the movie that Palpatine would have been killed by Mace Windu at that moment ... there is no doubt that he was defeated and bested by Windu and only survived that moment because of Anakin's turn to the dark side ... that in fact is the central theme of this whole 6 part movie series ... to miss this is to miss the main point. To not understand and accept that it was Anakin's decision at that last moment before Sidious was about to be sliced in half by Windu ... that ultimately sealed the fate of the Jedi is to miss the point of the whole STAR WARS series and the prequel trilogy .... it's not about Darth Sidious being invincible and the most powerful ... because that is simply not true ... it is about the corruption of Anakin Skywalker and his wrong choices, that leads to the extermination of the Jedi, who are essentially betrayed by him ... and the beginnings of the reign of the darkside in the galaxy ... this is the point of the whole tale .... but to fail to see that Mace Windu was clearly superior to Darth Sidious and had him beaten is to be blind ... Also ... there was no doubt that Yoda was superior to Darth Sidious in their duel .... just barely superior no doubt ... but definitely superior ... again there is no doubt that the only reason that Darth Sidious did not take the pains to continue the fight with Yoda was because it was clearly apparent, that had the duel continued .... he would have sooner or later been defeated and killed by Yoda. I think Lucas has made both these aspects very clear .... because he himself is very clear on this point ... THE DARK SIDE IS NOT MORE POWERFUL ... IT IS VERY POWERFUL NO DOUBT ... BUT IT IS NOT MORE POWERFUL THAN THE LIGHT SIDE ... AND THEREFORE THE MOST POWERFUL AND ENLIGHTENED JEDIS ( IN THIS CASE MACE WINDU AND YODA ) WILL ALWAYS BE MORE POWERFUL THAN THE SITH IN SINGLE COMBAT .... and Lucas makes this very clear in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, when Yoda is teaching Luke. And I think he has made this clear in this movie as well quite unambiguously ... Mace Windu was more powerful than Darth Sidious ... and had him defeated and helpless ... he lost not because of Sidious's superiority, but because he was caught off guard by Anakin ... and because he never expected Anakin to betray him .... similarly ... Yoda failed to kill the sith lord not because of the sith's superiority ... but because of the unnatural way and circumstances in which that battle was cut short .... Darth Sidious was clearly shown to throw everything he had at Yoda ... and all of it wasn't enough ... Yoda took it all and gave it back to him worse than he got ... I can't believe that as UNAMBIGUOUS as all of this is on screen, there is any kind of debate on this issue.

I dont this this will ever end until Lucas himself clears it up himself. As mentioned, Palpatine was depending on factors such as Anakin being there on time, and making the decision.

If Anakin wasn't there on time or made the decision of helping Mace, Palpatine then could have put his full power into it (assuming he was faking it).

according to an EP3 magazine, he was struggling to intensify his power as Mace moved closer to Palpatine. Therefore, he wasn;t faking it.

i thought this was the place i shoulda posted it first...but i couldnt be buggered finding the thread

"Mace pushes Palpatine out to the edge of the ledge, and as the Jedi moves closer, the bolts of lightning begin to arch back towards the Sith Lord. Palpatine's face begins to twist and distort, and his eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers."

lol, I hope people believe you so it could be cleared up

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
You don't need a light saber to kill someone WHEN YOU CAN THROW THEM OUT THE WINDOW WITH LIGHTENING!!! That's like saying I can't kill you by throwing you off a building, I have to use a gun. Thats retarded. MACE DIED BECAUSE HE WAS THROWN OUT THE WINDOW FROM THE FORCE. Thats a motherf'in' fact my friend. You can speculate about power all day long but all the air you waste still can't change that MACE IS DEAD because PALPS KILLED HIM.

I like how all of your "facts" are purely opinions that appear no where onscreen, where as I have broken down each moment of the fight to show how it was meant to have an effect on Anakin. So you think Palps wasn't supposed to look weak in front of Ani so he'd have to make a choice? Lets have a poll on that so you can see how SOOOOO totally off you are. That was ALL that scene depended on, it was THE SCENE when Ani finally turned to the Dark Side. You SERIOUSLY need to go watch the film again before I take anything you say seriously again. I mean man, you're sooo off on this its not even funny. You just keep spouting opinion with no screen evidence, where ALL of my analysis has been from what we can see, not what we can infer. You have no concept of debate, seeing as your whole arguement depends on someone accepting your evidence, which is ALL opinion, as fact.

You didn't even read my Yoda Dooku statement did you?

And I find your so called facts and my oppinions funniest of all. We have never seen Palp win from Mace, except for in theory's. But we have seen Mace win from Palps on screen. How come what I say is a theory and what you say is reality... Think for one time and realise that Palpatine could not have pushed Mace out of the window as long as Mace could block his lightning with his lightsaber. Palpatine was screwed if it were not for Anakin.

And you are making it sound like this movie revolves around Palpatine, it does not its all about Anakin. Everything is about Anakin his fall and his redemption. Palpatine lost, Anakin saved him. Anakin destroyed the light side and saved the dark side. Thats what the entire movie is about.

wow. so mace getting thrown from a window and dying because Palps threw him doesn't mean Palps won? You've got a screw loose. And I read all that Yoda/Dooku stuff, I just don't see how its relevant to this. The argument here is whether or not Mace beat Palps.

FACT: Mace is pushed out of a window by Palpatine's lightening.

Thats right there on film. If you maybe got up to go to the bathroom there then okay, but if you're simply denying it, you need a straight jacket.

Originally posted by Fishy
Palpatine was screwed if it were not for Anakin.

And you are making it sound like this movie revolves around Palpatine, it does not its all about Anakin. Everything is about Anakin his fall and his redemption. Palpatine lost, Anakin saved him. Anakin destroyed the light side and saved the dark side. Thats what the entire movie is about.

Palpatine needed Ani to believe Ani was being helpful because once Ani reached the point where he would help Palps against another mentor (Mace), then that would mean Palps had him. And I agree, everything in these films IS about Ani's fall and redemption. But the Redemption doesn't happen until the end of ROTJ where Vader is forced to make another choice, only this time between Palps and Luke. In this movie though, we see how Ani was warped and confused by Palps, and made to think things that were not true. Lucas himself has stated that many times. And Ani HELPED destroy the light, but he didn't do it alone. Palps is his new master, Plaps is the one that gives him orders. Ani is a pawn in this film. That is the point. Lucas has said, he sees Vader as a much more pathetic person because of the fact that all of his turning, all of the things Ani justifies to himself are based on the lies that Palpatine has told him. Palpatine warped his view, he had been working on it since he met Ani at a very young age. The final act of Palps plan to turn Ani revolve around turning Ani against the Jedi. How does he do that? By convincing Ani that they are murders out looking for power and they plan to take over the Senate. Palps starts working on Ani on this idea during the Opera scene, then he sets up a scene for Ani to see: The head of the Jedi council, Mace Windu, about to kill Palps, Ani's friend and mentor. Seeing this gives Ani a choice, as mirrored in ROTJ, save the Jedi, or help the Sith. In ROTS, he chooses poorly and picks the Sith. He cuts off Mace's arm shouting 'no I need him'. Now at that moment, Palps has Ani's trust and loyatly, the test is over, and the pieces are no longer needed. So Palpatine springs up and throws Mace out the window. He names Lord Vader and reasures Ani that he has done right. Ani is now a loyal slave to the dark side.

Ani's fall is also mirrored in the fall of the Senate to an Empire. Just as Ani's death at the end of ROTJ happens as the Empire falls. Its all metaphor and similie. The Senate has been carefully manipulated, made to see things that Palpatine wants them to see, just as Ani has been carefully manipulated, and made to see things that Palpatine wants him to see.

Another point that seems to get neglected here I just thought should be thrown out into this.

"Remember Obi-wan, if the prophecy is true, your padawan is the only person who can bring the Force back into balance" Mace to Obi-wan in AOTC.

Anakin is the only one who can defeat the Stih. Not Obi-wan, not Yoda, not Mace. ANAKIN. And he does just that at the end of ROTJ. So until Ani decided to destroy the Sith, it wasn't gonna happen, because HE was the Chosen ONE. So no matter how good the others are, only Anakin was destined to destroy the Sith.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
wow. so mace getting thrown from a window and dying because Palps threw him doesn't mean Palps won? You've got a screw loose. And I read all that Yoda/Dooku stuff, I just don't see how its relevant to this. The argument here is whether or not Mace beat Palps.

FACT: Mace is pushed out of a window by Palpatine's lightening.

Thats right there on film. If you maybe got up to go to the bathroom there then okay, but if you're simply denying it, you need a straight jacket.

Yeah palps threw him out of the window, after Anakin defeated him. And I never said it was a dying Palps.

When he is on the ground there lying screaming in pain he's probably faking it. Knowing that he will die if he doesn't and that maybe he can push Anakin to make a quick decision or get mace over confident. However he could not have defeated Mace at that time. He wasn't as weak as he told Anakin he was but he wasn't powerful enough to defeat Mace.

That Yoda statement is very important becuase it shows that the force alone is not enough you need a Lightsaber to beat a powerful Jedi or Sith in a one on one fight. Mace won from Palpatine in the one on one fight, Anakin ended his life.

About your other two points, Palpatine was the master he planned it all, but he did not plan to be defeated by Mace and or Yoda...

Your chosen one statement makes no sense.. Anakin did defeat the Sith, every single last one of them except for Maul. I never said Mace ended the rule of the Sith, I said he defeated Palpatine in a fair fight. He could have killled him if it was not for the OT.. Yoda could have done so if it wasn't for the OT. Palpatine wasn't immortal and he wasn't all powerful he was good and smart but nothing more. You are saying Palpatine could not be defeated because Anakin had to do it? Thats crap, Anakin had to kill him according to the prophecy, that both Mace and Yoda have doubts about, and apparently Palps too otherwise he wouldn't have taken Anakin as his apprentice.

A prophecy that could have been misread, so that leaves us with what? Absolutly nothing but the fact that Mace and Yoda did not kill Palpatine but could have. Hitler didn't conquer Moscow, but every historian agrees he could have. Only then Winter showed up and Hitler failed.

Like Mace, could defeat Palps but then Anakin showed up and stopped his little plan.

yeah he was clearly faking it.. thats what the sly look out of the corner of his eyes towards anakin was all about, in case you missed it.

Originally posted by Fishy
That Yoda statement is very important becuase it shows that the force alone is not enough you need a Lightsaber to beat a powerful Jedi or Sith in a one on one fight. Mace won from Palpatine in the one on one fight, Anakin ended his life.

😆 Where is that on film? it is all your speculation. Mace, a powerful Jedi, is defeated when he is thrown out a window. Sidious, a powerful Sith, is defeated when he is thrown down a reactor shaft by Vader. So apparently, you only need to kill someone to defeat them. The only thing that scene in AOTC means is that Dooku and Yoda had to face each other with sabers BECAUSE they were to balanced in powers in the force. this is a different fight with entirely different circumstances.

Anakin didn't end Mace's life...man you're confused. He just cut off his hand.

Originally posted by Fishy
Your chosen one statement makes no sense.. Anakin did defeat the Sith, every single last one of them except for Maul.

this statement alone proves you have no understanding of what you speak. The Sith were ended when Anakin killed Sidious. He brought an end to the Sith. There were two Sith at the time, Vader and Sidious. After Vader turned back to Anakin and killed Sidious, there were no more Sith. That is what the prophecy said would happen, the Chosen One would destroy the Sith. And that is precisely what he did. Lucas himself has said this. You need to take a step back and realize what it is you are saying. If you don't think Anakin killed off the Sith, you have issues.

Originally posted by Fishy
I never said Mace ended the rule of the Sith, I said he defeated Palpatine in a fair fight.

That's good chief, cause I never said anything about Mace ending the Sith either... 😆
clearly your thoughts on this matter are unclear as that is about the hundreth time you've misinterpreted me.

Originally posted by Fishy
I said he defeated Palpatine in a fair fight. He could have killled him if it was not for the OT.. Yoda could have done so if it wasn't for the OT. Palpatine wasn't immortal and he wasn't all powerful he was good and smart but nothing more. You are saying Palpatine could not be defeated because Anakin had to do it? Thats crap, Anakin had to kill him according to the prophecy, that both Mace and Yoda have doubts about, and apparently Palps too otherwise he wouldn't have taken Anakin as his apprentice.

A prophecy that could have been misread, so that leaves us with what? Absolutly nothing but the fact that Mace and Yoda did not kill Palpatine but could have. Hitler didn't conquer Moscow, but every historian agrees he could have. Only then Winter showed up and Hitler failed.

Like Mace, could defeat Palps but then Anakin showed up and stopped his little plan.

Firstly, you're second paragraph is fundamentaly flawed because it directly contradicts what George himself has said. perhaps when you watch them in order, this will become clear to you.

Now for your first point here, in a fair fight, perhaps Mace could have defeated Sidious. But that was not a fair fight. It was another piece of a carefully put together puzzle. And yes, only Anakin can kill Palpatine because that is what the prophecy (and George Lucas) have said, and CLEARLY ILLUSTRATED in the end of ROTJ when Anakin killed Sidious. You have seen ROTJ right? you remember when Anakin through that old guy in the robe down a shaft? Yeah...that was Palpatine, being killed by Anakin, full filling the prophecy. If you don't understand the prophecy, as anyone on here as they will be glad to explain it to you, as I have.

We are not debatting about who killed Palpatine, its clear that Anakin was the only one.. We are debating if Mace defeated him or not, and he did defeat him. Defeating and killing are two different things.

Did Mace kick away Palp his lightsaber? Yes
Did he defeat him? Yes
Did he block Palpatine his force lightning attack: yes
Did he die? yes
Did he die because of Anakin? yes
Did Palpatine finish him? Yes

Yeah Palp killed him, yeah Mace did not kill Palpatine but he beat him

your third "fact" is opinion. Fights are not over until they are over. And it was over when the threat went away, i.e. when palps through mace out the windu. you're arguement is completely based on semantics. And if it was clear that Ani was the only one who can kill palps, why did you say I say I was wrong for saying so earlier? you logic is so sporatic you seem to say things you later contradict. Not great debate skills let me tell you.

I'm not contradicting myself i'm saying Mace beat Palps, i'm not saying he killed him, i never did...

not about that no. but through out this arguement you've said things in your arguments that you later contradict.

but earlier you said, " I said he defeated Palpatine in a fair fight. He could have killled him if it was not for the OT.. Yoda could have done so if it wasn't for the OT. Palpatine wasn't immortal and he wasn't all powerful he was good and smart but nothing more. You are saying Palpatine could not be defeated because Anakin had to do it? Thats crap, Anakin had to kill him according to the prophecy, that both Mace and Yoda have doubts about, and apparently Palps too otherwise he wouldn't have taken Anakin as his apprentice.

A prophecy that could have been misread, so that leaves us with what? Absolutly nothing but the fact that Mace and Yoda did not kill Palpatine but could have."

if not for the OT? that's hilarious... any way, then later you say,"We are not debatting about who killed Palpatine, its clear that Anakin was the only one."

Which seems to mean that you do understand the prophecy, when in the first quote you clearly do not. Because on screen, we know the prophecy is true because Ani kills the Sith in ROTJ.

But what is this if not for the OT crap? its all one story, so basically you're saying if Lucas didn't write the whole story then Mace could win in you're little happy fantasy world?

Look, here's the point: In TPM, Obi-wan is hanging in a reactor shaft which Maul pushed him into. Maul now stands triumphantly over him. So by your logic, Maul just won the saber fight. So that would mean Maul won the fight over all right? Wrong. Because Obi-wan then springs up and cuts Maul in half. The same situation happens in the Mace/Palps fight. Palps is the one on the ropes, as Obi-wan was in TPM, with Mace standing triumphantly over him ready to finish the job, like Maul in TPM, then Palps springs up and kills Mace, like Obi did in TPM. So what does this prove? Fights aren't over until somebody drops dead. You're can say, Mace seemed to have the upper hand at THAT POINT in the fight. But he did NOT WIN because the fight WASN"T OVER. So you can claim Mace won all you want, but who is dead and who is alive at the end of the movie? That's right, Palpatine, not Mace. ROTS is all about the bad guys winning. Do they win fair and square? no. That's why they're the bad guys, but they do win, and they keep on winning until ROTJ. Sorry buddy, that's the way it is.

Ya'll are going around in circles people .... Mace Windu defeated Palpatine .... in fact, it's kind of funny .... because even after Palpatine tried to use the lightening on Mace Windu , and failed because Windu was powerful enough to withstand the lightening and send it back to Palpatine, it's totally obvious on screen, that the lightening was Palpatine's last trump card, and that it had failed ... he was lying their beaten and defeated and a hairbreadth away from certain destruction at the point of Windu's sabre .... his only hope at that point was to play weak and victimised in front of Anakin, and also hope that the promise ( false of course ) that he had given Anakin, that he could teach Anakin to save his dear ones using the power of the darkside, and that he was the ONLY one who could show Anakin that .... that these things would combine to turn Anakin to the darkside, and that Anakin would save him from Windu ... that was the reason he played weak and victimised .... because that was his only hope of escaping death ... that aside .... man !!! how can you guys even be sitting here debating this .... Windu beat him inspite of him trying everything that he knew or had up his sleeve .... THE DARKSIDE IS NOT THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE .... THE LIGHT SIDE IS .... AND MACE WINDU IS AN EXTREMELY POWERFUL JEDI, PERHAPS SECOND ONLY TO MASTER YODA ... AND DARTH SIDIOUS WITH ALL HIS DARK POWERS DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH TO ESCAPE DEFEAT AT THE HANDS OF MACE WINDU .... IF IT WASN'T FOR ANAKIN'S INTERFERENCE AT THE LAST MOMENT, DARTH SIDIOUS WOULD HAVE BEEN DESTROYED BY MACE WINDU.... HOW MUCH MORE UNAMBIGUOUS CAN THIS POSSIBLY BE THAN IT ALREADY IS IN THE MOVIE ???