So you are admitting that Mace is superior to Palpatine?
Of course Mace is dead and Palpatine isn't, otherwise the OT would be contradicted and it wouldn't make sense anymore.. You are talking about the movies now, i'm talking about the fact that Mace was superior to Palpatine as was Yoda.
Palpatine was not as good as those two, yes he survived both attempts, but I can hardly say he won.
Its like saying America won WWII... They helped yes, but they did not win the war.
Was the whole thing a setup on Sidious' part? Yes.
Did sidious underestimate Mace? Yes.
Is Mace a better swordsman than Sidious? Yes.
Did Sidious anticipate Anakin's coming? Yes.
Did Sidious ham up his "I'm too weak" performance for Anakin's benefit? Yes
Would Sidious have been killed by Mace if not for Anakin's arrival? Yes.
Is Sidious, in swordsmanship and force power combined, more powerful than Mace? Yes
Did Sidious learn a lesson or two about underestimating the most powerful of the Jedi, as evidenced by his attempt to flee from Yoda? Yes.
There. Debate ended. Both sides were partially right. The whole thing was orchestrated by Sidious, but he miscalculated one crucial point, just as in ROTJ. Therein is the symbolic parallel, that Anakin saved him from one miscalculation, and doomed him in another. That's the duality of Anakin's character, and those are the exact moments of his immersion in and rebirth from the dark side.
Can this debate end now?
And it would be more like saying France or England won WWII. They were on the victorious side, but if not for some serious outside circumstances tilting things drastically in their favor (i.e. America/Anakin/squade of clone troopers), things would have been drastically different, as evidenced by how things were going before those circumstances came about.
Sidious/Palpatine has become perhaps my all time favorite SW character. So, I believe he knew all along that Anakin was going to intervene. Besides, Palpatine pretended he was weak and as soon as Ani lopped off Mace's arm, he struck him with the Force lightning. Hey, I'm biased being a "Palpy" fan. 🙂
Originally posted by Fishy
So you are admitting that Mace is superior to Palpatine?
nope. Sidious is far more powerful, equal to Yoda, who is tougher than Mace, but definetly Mace is weaker than Sidious because he had nothing for that lightening, out the window he went. Dead splat goodbye. Sorry man, cry about it all you want, palps killed Mace, so he's superior. The whole fight was a set up, Palps faked the loss so he'd be in a vunerable position when Ani arrived. Then he killed Mace. End of story.
Originally posted by mephistodesignswell said.
nope. Sidious is far more powerful, equal to Yoda, who is tougher than Mace, but definetly Mace is weaker than Sidious because he had nothing for that lightening, out the window he went. Dead splat goodbye. Sorry man, cry about it all you want, palps killed Mace, so he's superior. The whole fight was a set up, Palps faked the loss so he'd be in a vunerable position when Ani arrived. Then he killed Mace. End of story.
Mace is far inferior... didn't you hear him scream like a little girl when his hand got cut off? pussy
Originally posted by mtryder
Was the whole thing a setup on Sidious' part? Yes.
Did sidious underestimate Mace? Yes.
Is Mace a better swordsman than Sidious? Yes.
Did Sidious anticipate Anakin's coming? Yes.
Did Sidious ham up his "I'm too weak" performance for Anakin's benefit? Yes
Would Sidious have been killed by Mace if not for Anakin's arrival? Yes.
Is Sidious, in swordsmanship and force power combined, more powerful than Mace? Yes
Did Sidious learn a lesson or two about underestimating the most powerful of the Jedi, as evidenced by his attempt to flee from Yoda? Yes.There. Debate ended. Both sides were partially right. The whole thing was orchestrated by Sidious, but he miscalculated one crucial point, just as in ROTJ. Therein is the symbolic parallel, that Anakin saved him from one miscalculation, and doomed him in another. That's the duality of Anakin's character, and those are the exact moments of his immersion in and rebirth from the dark side.
Can this debate end now?
best post so far...
Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
well said.Mace is far inferior... didn't you hear him scream like a little girl when his hand got cut off? pussy
yeah because losing limbs is an everyday thing...
RBellaFan: That's fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
However I think that mtryder summed it up perfectly. The thing is it shows Palpatine's intelligence and his ability to turn things to his advantage. However, he NEEDED Anakin since that's who the movie is about. He lost the one-on-one fight and if Anakin hadn't shown up he'd have died.
If we took the view that he didn't need Anakin and could have won the fight on his own merits, Anakin's part is dimininished.
Plus, showing Palpatine as fallible makes him a more human and interesting character.
Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Haha, I'd rather not... but Mace was prissy screaming before he got the lightning... I just found it funny is all. That he's such a baby. 😄Mace did not kick Palps's arse... Palpatine owns.
But, I guess you can tell from my sig that my opinion is biased 😉
😛
i've watched that scene a few times... palps is betting that anakins love for padme will make him go against the jedi, and thats what swings it... without that bargaining chip palps is screwed...
Originally posted by pr1983indeed... but Palps knew Anakin's love would turn him, or at least be strong enough for Anakin to save Palpatine's life in order to gain the power to save the one he loves.
😛i've watched that scene a few times... palps is betting that anakins love for padme will make him go against the jedi, and thats what swings it... without that bargaining chip palps is screwed...
Originally posted by Darth MoonPIEyeah, but still... he didn't need to cry like a baby 😛
The thing about screaming is he was more shocked than in pain.If a fellow jedi cut your hand off to save a "Sith Lord" would you be a little surprized?
Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
indeed... but Palps knew Anakin's love would turn him, or at least be strong enough for Anakin to save Palpatine's life in order to gain the power to save the one he loves.yeah, but still... he didn't need to cry like a baby 😛
he expected it to yes, but as intelligent as he is he could have easily killed mace and made it look like self defence, but he didnt, because mace was too good a swordsman...
the thing that gives mace his edge is his physical prescence... he has the technique and the physical advantage over the likes of palps who is older and a less skilled swordsman (yet easily more powerful force wise)...
Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
But Palpatine needed to get into that situation with Windu in order to make Anakin make a quick decision, Palpatine knowing that that decision would be to join him.I do think though that Palpatine underestimated Windu, but he could have killed him at any time...
in my opinion anyway 🙂
i totally understand... but i think it cheapens maces reputation as a jedi... also not forgetting that palps did kill 3 jedi... mace came to arrest palpatine, not kill him. he only tried to do so after palps had used the lightning...
ive watched the fight over and over, and i do believe in the fight itself mace was superior... palps was faking the damage from the lightning, but before that i definately thought mace had the upper hand...
Originally posted by pr1983It does cheapen Mace's reputation which is why I like it so much. I don't like Mace. But then the scream really cheapens his reputation, so maybe it is intentional? Mace has always been the cynical one, in this film he finally gets what's coming to him...
i totally understand... but i think it cheapens maces reputation as a jedi... also not forgetting that palps did kill 3 jedi... mace came to arrest palpatine, not kill him. he only tried to do so after palps had used the lightning...ive watched the fight over and over, and i do believe in the fight itself mace was superior... palps was faking the damage from the lightning, but before that i definately thought mace had the upper hand...
Palps did kill three Jedi with ease which leads me to believe even more that he was faking with Mace... the others can't have been that bad.
I've only seen it twice, so perhaps you do have more light on this than me... 😄
But from what I remember, if I'm being honest, there is really nothing in the fight to suggest that either Palps was faking or that Mace had the upper hand. Except Palpatine's weird faces seem to make it out that he's at least partially toying with Mace.
Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
It does cheapen Mace's reputation which is why I like it so much. I don't like Mace. But then the scream really cheapens his reputation, so maybe it is intentional? Mace has always been the cynical one, in this film he finally gets what's coming to him...Palps did kill three Jedi with ease which leads me to believe even more that he was faking with Mace... the others can't have been that bad.
I've only seen it twice, so perhaps you do have more light on this than me... 😄
But from what I remember, if I'm being honest, there is really nothing in the fight to suggest that either Palps was faking or that Mace had the upper hand. Except Palpatine's weird faces seem to make it out that he's at least partially toying with Mace.
when palps was using the lightning, he was definately faking, no question, but during the saber fight i honestly saw nothing to suggest mace was holding back either...
and yes, i think most jedi are that bad, remember mace has a very high reputation as a swordsman...