Muhammad Ali or Bruce Lee?

Originally posted by Stoic
Tell me. What is the hardest punch to block?

Haha, I think that depends on the fighter, rolling wing chun punches would not be something anyone would block because they are applied coming straight at you. Most would just step back or evade. That's the thing about Chinese Martial arts, it's all about blocking forms. Bruce Lee would not approve lol. In Boxing terms the upper cut, if it's been set up correctly. That's the thing though, punches should be thrown in groups and sets, in a non Chinese way to cause a breakdown in the defence, like in Muay Thai and Western Boxing. Rolling punches are direct and as such weak sauce to evade. However, it's fighters that make styles as much as styles that make fighters. Look at Chung Lee, he gets Korean Tai Kwon Do to work in MMA to a point.

Originally posted by The Lone Poster
Haha, I think that depends on the fighter, rolling wing chun punches would not be something anyone would block because they are applied coming straight at you. Most would just step back or evade. That's the thing about Chinese Martial arts, it's all about blocking forms. Bruce Lee would not approve lol. In Boxing terms the upper cut, if it's been set up correctly. That's the thing though, punches should be thrown in groups and sets, in a non Chinese way to cause a breakdown in the defence, like in Muay Thai and Western Boxing. Rolling punches are direct and as such weak sauce to evade. However, it's fighters that make styles as much as styles that make fighters. Look at Chung Lee, he gets Korean Tai Kwon Do to work in MMA to a point.

So when Ali launches a punch at Bruce, and it is blocked, returned, and at the same time he finds that his knee cap is dislocated by a proper kick to it, how does Ali continue to fight? If you want to win this debate by countering and denying Bruce Lee's obvious proficiency then by all means believe what you like. What I saw however leads me to believe that Ali would have no answer for moves outside of pugilistic ones. This is how he would lose, and badly at that. Size mean little in this thread, because Ali simply would have no counter measures to deal with Bruce's unorthodox style.

They actually were in the ring together, in the mid 70's, and Bruce had Ali on the run.

By the way I disagree with a lot of your post, but that's just a matter of opinion.

Ali's reach is probably greater than Lee's kicking range to be honest and I'm not even sure Lee could reach Ali's knee. All we're asking for is proof Lee has had a real fight, not with pads on, not a demo, not board breaking or anything staged. A bit of film of something real. Till then, we have a seasoned fighter vs a martial arts films star. I remember Lee saying Ali would beat him in a fight. Was it then?

Lee even wanted to be Ali
http://www.bruceleecentral.com/bruceleepeople.php

Ali and Lee never met, see above.

On Lee as a master

Fook Young
When Bruce came to the U.S. in 1959 he knew about sixty percent of the Wooden dummy, the first form and parts of the second and third form, but his Wing Chun training didn't end there.

Fook Young, a friend of Bruce Lee's father continued Bruce's instruction in Wing Chun. Fook Young was a Chinese opera star from the time that he was ten. Each time that he joined a new opera he had to learn the Gung Fu style that Gung Fu master favoured. Fook Young learned many many styles and he taught parts of them to Bruce. One of the style that he taught Bruce was Red Boat Wing Chun. The areas where Bruce excelled were sticking hands, closing, chasing and punching. (taken from www.alphalink.com.au/~bundles/JesseGlover.htm)

Fook Young is rumoured to be the person who taught Bruce Lee the art of stage fighting, but little else is documented about this mysterious and elusive individual.
(More information would be appreciated)

Originally posted by The Lone Poster
Ali's reach is probably greater than Lee's kicking range to be honest and I'm not even sure Lee could reach Ali's knee. All we're asking for is proof Lee has had a real fight, not with pads on, not a demo, not board breaking or anything staged. A bit of film of something real. Till then, we have a seasoned fighter vs a martial arts films star. I remember Lee saying Ali would beat him in a fight. Was it then?

Lee even wanted to be Ali
http://www.bruceleecentral.com/bruceleepeople.php

Ali and Lee never met, see above.

On Lee as a master

Fook Young
When Bruce came to the U.S. in 1959 he knew about sixty percent of the Wooden dummy, the first form and parts of the second and third form, but his Wing Chun training didn't end there.

Fook Young, a friend of Bruce Lee's father continued Bruce's instruction in Wing Chun. Fook Young was a Chinese opera star from the time that he was ten. Each time that he joined a new opera he had to learn the Gung Fu style that Gung Fu master favoured. Fook Young learned many many styles and he taught parts of them to Bruce. One of the style that he taught Bruce was Red Boat Wing Chun. The areas where Bruce excelled were sticking hands, closing, chasing and punching. (taken from www.alphalink.com.au/~bundles/JesseGlover.htm)

Fook Young is rumoured to be the person who taught Bruce Lee the art of stage fighting, but little else is documented about this mysterious and elusive individual.
(More information would be appreciated)

Bruce would not need to punch Ali in any conventional manner, he would simply let Ali throw the punch, block it, and let Ali's energy carry him forward, where he would grab Ali by the outside of the wrist, pull him forward and wind up behind Ali, where Bruce would then kick the back of his knee making it buckle, and strike him behind the head, for a quick and decisive KO.

Power means nothing if it is used against you. I'm sure you know this. You have the right to your opinion, while I have the right of mine. I think Bruce would defeat Ali in less than 14 moves.

Ali never fought Bruce, you are correct, but they were in the same ring. It was just a publicity stunt, but when it got semi serious, and Bruce took his stance, Ali got out of the way quickly.

Originally posted by Stoic
Bruce would not need to punch Ali in any conventional manner, he would simply let Ali throw the punch, block it, and let Ali's energy carry him forward, where he would grab Ali by the outside of the wrist, pull him forward and wind up behind Ali, where Bruce would then kick the back of his knee making it buckle, and strike him behind the head, for a quick and decisive KO.

Power means nothing if it is used against you. I'm sure you know this. You have the right to your opinion, while I have the right of mine. I think Bruce would defeat Ali in less than 14 moves.

Ali never fought Bruce, you are correct, but they were in the same ring. It was just a publicity stunt, but when it got semi serious, and Bruce took his stance, Ali got out of the way quickly.

Power means nothing is what little guys tell themselves to sleep at night. Lee wasn't that stupid.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94296

Originally posted by The Lone Poster
Power means nothing is what little guys tell themselves to sleep at night. Lee wasn't that stupid.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94296

1. You are using a forum which will have an obvious bias towards the boxer.

2. That statement you are toting is out of context. Lee made that comment to refer to the Boxing Ring Rules, not a street fight.

3. Lee also said he could beat anyone in the world.

4. ???

5. Suck it.

The footage that I am posting here, is either the truth or a lie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6F-77IwXMw

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
If I can see just one, just one video, of Bruce using a single one of these techniques on an actual enemy in a fighting situation, then I would be content.

Originally posted by Stoic
I posted the videos earlier. You need to look at both styles and see their similarities. Me and many of my training partners can see this because of a trained eye. It's up to you to believe what I am about to say. What I saw was real in terms of the moves that I saw in those videos of Bruce Lee, and can not be faked. If I were to give Bruce a level of proficiency in the form of how many years of experience he had, or give him a title, I would say at the very least that he obtained 20 plus years of kung fu experience, and call him Grand Master. I took wing chun for 14 years, and I'm not a slouch at the style. This is up to you to believe me if you want. By all means show another student of the style the same footage that I posted, and look at their reactions, and then ask them if it was smoke and mirrors.

If some guy said he could beat Lyoto Machida and posted videos of him doing kata, would you believe he could take Machida?

Originally posted by Stoic
Bruce would not need to punch Ali in any conventional manner, he would simply let Ali throw the punch, block it, and let Ali's energy carry him forward, where he would grab Ali by the outside of the wrist, pull him forward and wind up behind Ali, where Bruce would then kick the back of his knee making it buckle, and strike him behind the head, for a quick and decisive KO.

Power means nothing if it is used against you. I'm sure you know this. You have the right to your opinion, while I have the right of mine. I think Bruce would defeat Ali in less than 14 moves.

Ali never fought Bruce, you are correct, but they were in the same ring. It was just a publicity stunt, but when it got semi serious, and Bruce took his stance, Ali got out of the way quickly.

If you want to believe Bruce wins, fine. Please admit that you absolutely can not prove that in a debate though. There is no evidence for it.

Post the video of this please.

Stoic that vid shows nothing, please post this:

Originally posted by StyleTime

If you want to believe Bruce wins, fine. Please admit that you absolutely can not prove that in a debate though. There is no evidence for it.

Post the video of this please.

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. You are using a forum which will have an obvious bias towards the boxer.

2. That statement you are toting is out of context. Lee made that comment to refer to the Boxing Ring Rules, not a street fight.

3. Lee also said he could beat anyone in the world.

4. ???

5. Suck it.

1) Yes, but he said it none-the-less.
2) That's what some say and not what others say. The context is clear imho.
3) Well according to a poster, and quite possibly, although we don't know the context of this statement or if it was said at all.
4) ??? Wat?
5) No thanks, that's more a job for the married man around his wifes bull! 😉

Originally posted by StyleTime
Agreed. It'll probably never happen though.

No, you didn't post him applying those things in a combat situation. Doing demos does not mean you're a great fighter.

If some guy said he could beat Lyoto Machida and posted videos of him doing kata, would you believe he could take Machida?

Bruce has never once demonstrated the ability to KO an opponent at all, much less in the manner you posted. On the other hand, Ali has proven that he can KO people with one punch. That doesn't bode well for Lee.

If you want to believe Bruce wins, fine. Please admit that you absolutely can not prove that in a debate though. There is no evidence for it.

Post the video of this please.

From your post I get that you know very little about the subject that you are arguing about. The very fact that Bruce shows us that he can kick with unerring accuracy should tell you all that you need to know of his capabilities. Bruce Lee did not enter tournies in those days because of the restrictions of those tournies. Not because he would not have won them. Look at the last footage that I provided. Listen to it, and learn the whys, and why nots of his non participation in events that made a mockery of his true full contact form of combat.

Originally posted by The Lone Poster
1) Yes, but he said it none-the-less.

See my #3 for why your response to #1 is irrelevant to the point I made here in #1.

Originally posted by The Lone Poster
2) That's what some say and not what others say. The context is clear imho.

That's not true. The context was specific to a Marquess of Queensberry rules.

Originally posted by The Lone Poster
3) Well according to a poster, and quite possibly, although we don't know the context of this statement or if it was said at all.

What poster? That's irrelevant to my point.

Originally posted by The Lone Poster
4) ??? Wat?

Learn to internet.

Originally posted by The Lone Poster
5) No thanks, that's more a job for the married man around his wifes bull! 😉

I don't get this.

How do you define a great MA? By strength? Speed? Skill?

Now tell me what Bruce lacks in any of that aspects.

Originally posted by Stoic
Bruce Lee would defeat Muhammad Ali every single time if he focused. Most fights between the two would end in less than 45 seconds with Ali receiving a broken arm, or displaced knee cap. Bruce Lee's style focused on disabling his opponent systematically, and less on reckless speed. By removing the tools of his opponent/s he lessened their ability to form any sort of offense. Ali could only rely on his western boxing style, while Bruce Lee's style was unpredictable; incorporating holds, kicks, punches, grabs, and blocks.

Ali can kick (Its true. And against a midget like Lee he doesn't have to be chuck norris), grapple, punch, block.

Lee wouldn't have time to do anything systematically beofre getting KO'd.

Small frames are not designed to have small car crash-force heavyweight blows reigning down on them (especially at Ali speed)

Lee would be battered so quick from so many different angles, (That Lee wouldn't be able to block) that he'd be convinced for the second or two he remained conscious, that he was surrounded.

Originally posted by Stoic
Bruce would not need to punch Ali in any conventional manner, he would simply let Ali throw the punch, block it, and let Ali's energy carry him forward, where he would grab Ali by the outside of the wrist, pull him forward and wind up behind Ali, where Bruce would then kick the back of his knee making it buckle, and strike him behind the head, for a quick and decisive KO.

Power means nothing if it is used against you. I'm sure you know this. You have the right to your opinion, while I have the right of mine. I think Bruce would defeat Ali in less than 14 moves.

Ali never fought Bruce, you are correct, but they were in the same ring. It was just a publicity stunt, but when it got semi serious, and Bruce took his stance, Ali got out of the way quickly.

Nah man. Counterpunching (which is conventional punching) against an opponent twice your weight with handspeed equal to yours (despite having longer to travel due to Ali's non-midget physiology) equals your loss by KO.
Lee would not be able to block more than a couple of heavy combos without his arms feeling smashed due to the total mismatch here. It would like seeing a kid or a midget beaten by a fully grown man.
Ali's handspeed and lack of leaving himself at full extension for more than spilt second at a time to be grabbed will make your script for Lee victory incredibly unrealistic.

Ali always feigned fearful reaction from people he obviously needn't.
It was clowning.

Bruce wouldn't have long enough awake to deliver 14 moves.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ali's handspeed and lack of leaving himself at full extension for more than spilt second at a time to be grabbed will make your script for Lee victory incredibly unrealistic.

Ali always feigned fearful reaction from people he obviously needn't.
It was clowning.

These are the killer arguments that the Pro-Lee people forget. Ali had one of if not the best "feign" punches.

But there's something that the Pro-Ali people forget, to: Bruce Lee was also quite the fake striker, too.

of course Ali is the best and can easily knock out lee..

Originally posted by Stoic
From your post I get that you know very little about the subject that you are arguing about. The very fact that Bruce shows us that he can kick with unerring accuracy should tell you all that you need to know of his capabilities. Bruce Lee did not enter tournies in those days because of the restrictions of those tournies. Not because he would not have won them. Look at the last footage that I provided. Listen to it, and learn the whys, and why nots of his non participation in events that made a mockery of his true full contact form of combat.

Every single thing you've stated about the fight is mere theory. Fighters can do moves in training that they may not be able to do in real fights. I've seen Georges St. Pierre do a tornado kick in a demo, but I will not argue he can reliably ko someone with that kick because he has never proven he can.

You're arguing things you hope Lee is capable of against things Ali is proven capable of. It really is that simple.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
How do you define a great MA? By strength? Speed? Skill?

Now tell me what Bruce lacks in any of that aspects.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ali can kick (Its true. And against a midget like Lee he doesn't have to be chuck norris), grapple, punch, block.

Lee wouldn't have time to do anything systematically beofre getting KO'd.

Small frames are not designed to have small car crash-force heavyweight blows reigning down on them (especially at Ali speed)

Lee would be battered so quick from so many different angles, (That Lee wouldn't be able to block) that he'd be convinced for the second or two he remained conscious, that he was surrounded.

The problem with Ali, is that he was just a boxer, and limited to boxing rules. He would not know how to grapple or lock his opponents joints, he did not know how to kick, he did not know how to block kicks, he was not as agile, he would not know that Bruce was going to kick by looking at his shoulder drop before launching the kick, and he did not know as much as Lee did about the human anatomy, or the limits of the human body. You're entire argument is based on size and strength, and yet I have seen larger men lose to much smaller ones. Neither of these men knew how to fight in technical terms, and yet it was the smaller man that was teeing off on the much larger one. these weren't children, these were grown men.

While I can acknowledge that Bruce would be in trouble if Ali hit him with a heavy punch, the problem is that he would have to hit him. Is Bruce standing in one stationary position waiting to be hit?

People who have no experience in the kung fu style often believe that it's just about blocking, but they forget or are simply unaware that kung fu is about returning hits as well. Is Bruce supposed to stand there and be hit by the overall slower man? Ali's hands may have been as fast as Lee's (doubtful) but he never could move at the same speed as Bruce. Don't kid yourself, any accomplished martial artist due to training would know exactly how to place a boxer in the position to be hit from behind, or pop the capsule in their elbow the moment that their arm was fully extended. Blocks can also be used to break extended limbs.

Do me a favor right now. Throw a fully extended forward jab, and notice the strain that it puts on your elbow (did you feel that?), it is at this exact instant that makes it easy to pop the capsule. One hand blocks and holds the arm that was freely given, while the other hand slaps the elbow popping the capsule, and this does not require big man strength to do.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Nah man. Counterpunching (which is conventional punching) against an opponent twice your weight with handspeed equal to yours (despite having longer to travel due to Ali's non-midget physiology) equals your loss by KO.
Lee would not be able to block more than a couple of heavy combos without his arms feeling smashed due to the total mismatch here. It would like seeing a kid or a midget beaten by a fully grown man.
Ali's handspeed and lack of leaving himself at full extension for more than spilt second at a time to be grabbed will make your script for Lee victory incredibly unrealistic.

Ali always feigned fearful reaction from people he obviously needn't.
It was clowning.

Bruce wouldn't have long enough awake to deliver 14 moves.

Again whoever said that Bruce would have to attack Ali from straight on? What's this about Bruce getting his arms hurt in the process of blocking? You really have no idea do you? Banging arms is a process that the neophyte martial artist goes through to calcify their arms and legs. it would be just the opposite. if Bruce blocked Ali, Ali would be the one with bruised forearms, not the other way around. You simply have to practice these blocks to understand exactly what it is that I am saying.

Originally posted by azam
of course Ali is the best and can easily knock out lee..

Any flesh and blood human being can be knocked out, this also includes Ali.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I could talk about my martial arts experience, but I realized some time ago that it hardly matters in an internet discussion. Anyone can lie about their training and you have no real way to verify it. I honestly have no proof of your abilities either, but it doesn't matter; arguments should be backed by facts, and your argument is not.

Every single thing you've stated about the fight is mere theory. Fighters can do moves in training that they may not be able to do in real fights. I've seen Georges St. Pierre do a tornado kick in a demo, but I will not argue he can reliably ko someone with that kick because he has never proven he can.

You're arguing things you hope Lee is capable of against things Ali is proven capable of. It really is that simple.

You define a great martial artist by the prowess shown in his fights. Bruce lacks those.

Your entire argument is hinged on producing proof of Bruce's combat, You will not get any footage of the sort, because it likely does not exist, and if it does, it is not out there (People didn't walk around with cell handicams in those days, you realize this right?). Why would Jackie Chan, Chuck Norris, Mrs. Lee, Stunt men, camera crews, and various others lie about his ability?

It's obvious that none of the footage out there will convince you of the mans abilities or his skill. It still does not mean that it did not exist. It's more likely that Bruce was a deadly fighter than a hoax though, when you consider the fluidity of his movements, and the degree of difficulty that it would take to perform the kicks shown in the footage that does exist. I guarantee you that if you put Mike Tyson in his prime in the ring with BJ Penn, that Penn would defeat mike convincingly. Why? Because Penn has more in his tool belt than Mike does, and Mike had no way of replying to those tools because he was not trained to reply to them. He was just a boxer.

This entire thread will never be resolved because there are those that believe that lee would win for reasons, and those that believe that Ali would win for reasons. It's as simple as that. you have to also tell me where did it say that anyone had to provide footage of a Bruce Lee's fights in the OP? Even if it were given what would stop you or anyone from saying that it was fixed, or smoke and mirrors? MMA matches could be fixed as well.

Originally posted by Stoic
People who have no experience in the kung fu style often believe that it's just about blocking, but they forget or are simply unaware that kung fu is about returning hits as well. Is Bruce supposed to stand there and be hit by the overall slower man?

Gung Fu was the style he started with (Yip Man was his original teacher).

Jeet Kun Do was the style he created. It didn't involve "waiting" for someone to attack. It involved intercepting and attacking at the same time. Hitting before being hit. This is why speed was so important to Lee...and why people like Chuck Norris (a real accomplished Martial Artist) respect Lee so much.