Originally posted by Stoic Don't kid yourself, any accomplished martial artist due to training would know exactly how to place a boxer in the position to be hit from behind, or pop the capsule in their elbow the moment that their arm was fully extended.
Originally posted by Stoic
Your entire argument is hinged on producing proof of Bruce's combat, You will not get any footage of the sort, because it likely does not exist, and if it does, it is not out there (People didn't walk around with cell handicams in those days, you realize this right?). Why would Jackie Chan, Chuck Norris, Mrs. Lee, Stunt men, camera crews, and various others lie about his ability?It's obvious that none of the footage out there will convince you of the mans abilities or his skill. It still does not mean that it did not exist. It's more likely that Bruce was a deadly fighter than a hoax though, when you consider the fluidity of his movements, and the degree of difficulty that it would take to perform the kicks shown in the footage that does exist. I guarantee you that if you put Mike Tyson in his prime in the ring with BJ Penn, that Penn would defeat mike convincingly. Why? Because Penn has more in his tool belt than Mike does, and Mike had no way of replying to those tools because he was not trained to reply to them. He was just a boxer.
This entire thread will never be resolved because there are those that believe that lee would win for reasons, and those that believe that Ali would win for reasons. It's as simple as that. you have to also tell me where did it say that anyone had to provide footage of a Bruce Lee's fights in the OP? Even if it were given what would stop you or anyone from saying that it was fixed, or smoke and mirrors? MMA matches could be fixed as well.
Your BJ Penn comparison doesn't work. Bj Penn is a world champion class fighter with a verifiable fight record and proven abilities we can see at any time. Bj Penn would beat Ali because he has proven he has the ability to beat Ali. Lee is not comparable to modern day mixed martial artists; Bj would beat Lee worse than Ali would.
The thread will never be resolved because most Lee fans can't accept that there is no actual proof of Lee's abilities. We don't hate Bruce Lee and we are quite open to pro- Lee arguments. We just ask for legitimate proof to back the claims about his abilities.
"Well, us REAL kung fu guys know he could kill with a touch" doesn't cut it.
Originally posted by the ninjak
You think Ali would beat Lee with weapons? Poles, blades ands sticks.
I call shenanigans.Lee was a full blown streetfighter in his youth as well. Just going off Dragon he took on angry kungFu chefs woth clevers and hardcore bother assassins on the set of Big Boss and and his trial of honour amongst the Chinese elder's champion. Heresay but he never lost. Took on all Triad allcomers on the set of Enter the Dragon. Dirty killers who wanted to test his mettle.
You do realize that Dragon was heavily ficitonalize, right? It's already been said that Bruce never worked in a restaurant, nor did he fight on the set of Big Boss.
Also, contrary to what the movie showed, Bruce only fought that guy once and won (though it took three minutes). And the only time Bruce ever fought on a set of a movie was during Enter the Dragon, where he just did only one kick on a guy and that's it.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Bruce hasn't actually accomplished anything in actual combat, so that does not apply to him.No, I and others presented Ali's case several times already. Our argument centers on Ali's proven abilities. The whole "no one filmed fights" back then isn't true. Several fighters from Lee's period have documented, verifiable fights; Lee doesn't get a free pass just because his fans can't accept the fact that he never proved himself.
Your BJ Penn comparison doesn't work. Bj Penn is a world champion class fighter with a verifiable fight record and proven abilities we can see at any time. Bj Penn would beat Ali because he has proven he has the ability to beat Ali. Lee is not comparable to modern day mixed martial artists; Bj would beat Lee worse than Ali would.
The thread will never be resolved because most Lee fans can't accept that there is no actual proof of Lee's abilities. We don't hate Bruce Lee and we are quite open to pro- Lee arguments. We just ask for legitimate proof to back the claims about his abilities.
"Well, us REAL kung fu guys know he could kill with a touch" doesn't cut it.
If you claim to be a martial artist, then you would see that Bruce's moves on and off of the set were real moves. When he displayed the ability to push hands and use a series of non-choreographed blocks you would also see that this was not smoke and mirrors. I get that your aim here is to win a debate, but please do so without the BS, because I can see that the moves are real, I have been knocked on my ass plenty of times by them, and got bruises and numbness in my arms from banging arms that lasted for nearly a week. I know what I see is real. You saying just what you did was you insulting my intelligence, and blatantly laughing in anyone's face that has seen and felt these same moves.
This is what Sadako of Girth wrote, and he clearly does not know what he is talking about.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ali can kick (Its true. And against a midget like Lee he doesn't have to be chuck norris), grapple, punch, block.Lee wouldn't have time to do anything systematically beofre getting KO'd.
Small frames are not designed to have small car crash-force heavyweight blows reigning down on them (especially at Ali speed)
Lee would be battered so quick from so many different angles, (That Lee wouldn't be able to block) that he'd be convinced for the second or two he remained conscious, that he was surrounded.
And then he continues with more BS by writing this. Without clearly knowing that some blocks can be soft, while others can be used to set up a limb break using the energy behind the opponents own strikes. Ali did not know how to do this, or how to defend against it.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Nah man. Counterpunching (which is conventional punching) against an opponent twice your weight with handspeed equal to yours (despite having longer to travel due to Ali's non-midget physiology) equals your loss by KO.
Lee would not be able to block more than a couple of heavy combos without his arms feeling smashed due to the total mismatch here. It would like seeing a kid or a midget beaten by a fully grown man.
Ali's handspeed and lack of leaving himself at full extension for more than spilt second at a time to be grabbed will make your script for Lee victory incredibly unrealistic.Ali always feigned fearful reaction from people he obviously needn't.
It was clowning.Bruce wouldn't have long enough awake to deliver 14 moves.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Gung Fu was the style he started with (Yip Man was his original teacher).Jeet Kun Do was the style he created. It didn't involve "waiting" for someone to attack. It involved intercepting and attacking at the same time. Hitting before being hit. This is why speed was so important to Lee...and why people like Chuck Norris (a real accomplished Martial Artist) respect Lee so much.
This is something that I tried to explain in earlier posts. I agree with your post 100%.
I have personally witnessed a 5'1" women that weighed approximately 120 lbs throw a 6'3" 230 lbs man 5 feet in a non choreographed judo sparring match at my former dojo, and the only reason why the guy was able to get back up , and not break something after being launched was his knowledge of how to break his fall. Size does not mean win. I doubt that Ali knew how to break his fall, and Bruce knew throws. You're taking a one dimensional play by the rules of boxing fighter, and placing him against a no holds barred fighter with more tools, and expect him to win because of size. Believe what you want, and I will believe what I want.
I guess that guy wasn't Ali....
That was in a throw. Size and power and reach will always matter in a striking form.
But Im not blind to smaller guys and the damage they can do...
But shit-hot small guy will usually lose to shit-hot big guy.
And regarding blocks. The type you refer to, would not be happening against the rapid, concussive flurries that Ali will be inflicting on Lee from range. The hand speed and elusiveness, size, power, reflexes and range closing/opening speed is too much for that to be as realistic option....besides, Lee going on the counters against someone of 1967 Alis accuaracy, timing, power, speed etc would be fatally bad decision.
You may not think I know what Im talking about, and thats your opinion. I however actually do.
We have no reason to believe that Lee in an scripted unchoreographed realtime situation could take someone of Ali's size and ability.
A boxer outside of the rules can do what ever he wants.
The only dimensionality likely here for Lee, is a trip to the lights out dimension.
BTW rereading your post, Its odd that you accuse me of insulting you, (Which was not the intention) yet proceed to utterly insult me. Needlessly.
However, while I have already said at some point in this thread ages ago, I respect the non boxing martial arts, Im just saying that the guy who is repping the MA side here is undergunned, underproven, and undersized here. If Bruce Lee was 6'3 and was so naturally framed and had the physiology to deal with the physics being laid down on him in this encounter, and had the frame to accomodate for speed (longer legs) following, or evading Ali (who would be using speed and elusiveness laterally or any other way Ali wants to go, like no one else Lee had faced) he'd have a much more of a chance.
Likewise if you had a natural Ali matching Lee's dimensions.
How tall was Bruce Lee? He wasn't a dwarf. Nor is Ali a giant. It is not outlandish to believe that Bruce Lee could defeat Ali in a street fight, neither is it outlandish to believe that any person that is 8 inches shorter than a taller opponent to defeat the taller opponent if they have more knowledge of different fighting practices than the larger opponent.
Ali did not know how to grapple in the technical sense.
Ali did not know how to kick in the technical sense.
Originally posted by fantasy MArtist
Most of what Stoic said is silly made up fantasy rubbish. The sort of thing a 12 year old believes. He is obviously not an adult and has never had a fight in his life except at his local traditional McDojo!
I may be older than you are, and probably am. You likely watch a lot of MMA fights. Did you know that many of those fights would end up differently if they were purely street fights, and not limited to the rules of these matches that all of the fighters have to adhere to? Bruce could certainly lose to Ali, after all he was a flesh and blood man, but let's not be ignorant to Bruce's ability to possibly beat Ali, because after all, Ali was human as well. That's being real, and not living in a fantasy world that you may be living in. I hope for your sake that you never underestimate the wrong small guy, and find yourself eating dirt.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
BTW rereading your post, Its odd that you accuse me of insulting you, (Which was not the intention) yet proceed to utterly insult me. Needlessly.However, while I have already said at some point in this thread ages ago, I respect the non boxing martial arts, Im just saying that the guy who is repping the MA side here is undergunned, underproven, and undersized here. If Bruce Lee was 6'3 and was so naturally framed and had the physiology to deal with the physics being laid down on him in this encounter, and had the frame to accomodate for speed (longer legs) following, or evading Ali (who would be using speed and elusiveness laterally or any other way Ali wants to go, like no one else Lee had faced) he'd have a much more of a chance.
Likewise if you had a natural Ali matching Lee's dimensions.
You keep thinking one sided, without realizing that one block could stop this from becoming a rapid succession of punches. throw a jab, and fully extend it, notice the pressure that is placed on your elbow at full extension. One block is all that it takes to pop that capsule in your extended elbow, this is truth, all I'm asking you right now is to do it, and see what I mean.
Bruce or any martial artist does not have to stand there and continue blocking, but they could block, and return whatever it is that they might deem necessary to stop it from becoming a beat down. Bruce was not limited to blocks or punches.
Ali's biggest gun in any fight was his great punches, and the power that they could deliver, outside of this, he wasn't a kicker, or grappler. You are absolutely correct that Ali could put a smaller man than himself in trouble, but you may not be able to see that a smaller man of considerable skill may be able to set up a larger man to fight the fight that they choose to dictate. Bruce Lee was 5'6" - 5'7" not 4'11", Ali is 6'3". There is certainly a size difference, but it's hardly the David vs Goliath that many are trying to make it seem.
Originally posted by Stoic
I know what I see is real. You saying just what you did was you insulting my intelligence, and blatantly laughing in anyone's face that has seen and felt these same moves.
None of this is a personal attack on you and I don't think you are stupid. I apologize if I sound harsh, but your argument isn't an accurate description of actual combat. Do you understand how different combat would be if there were blocks that were guaranteed to break limbs?
Originally posted by Stoic
If you claim to be a martial artist, then you would see that Bruce's moves on and off of the set were real moves. When he displayed the ability to push hands and use a series of non-choreographed blocks you would also see that this was not smoke and mirrors. I get that your aim here is to win a debate, but please do so without the BS, because I can see that the moves are real, I have been knocked on my ass plenty of times by them, and got bruises and numbness in my arms from banging arms that lasted for nearly a week.This is what Sadako of Girth wrote, and he clearly does not know what he is talking about.
And then he continues with more BS by writing this. Without clearly knowing that some blocks can be soft, while others can be used to set up a limb break using the energy behind the opponents own strikes. Ali did not know how to do this, or how to defend against it.
Lee is an unproven fighter using many unproven techniques. For all this talk of arm breaking blocks, there is a surprising lack of wing chun fighters out there proving any of this stuff. Limb breaking blocks are definitely legal in competition if someone could do them.
Sadako is actually quite correct with everything he said and it is supported by Ali's fights. In all honestly, the stuff you're advocating is more questionable. The things you describe are the stuff of movies, and haven't been proven reliable in combat.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Believe it or not, I don't keep a tally on "wins" and "losses" on a chalk board by my computer. We're here because some part of us enjoys discussing the topic at hand.None of this is a personal attack on you and I don't think you are stupid. I apologize if I sound harsh, but your argument isn't an accurate description of actual combat. Do you understand how different combat would be if there were blocks that were guaranteed to break limbs?
As a martial artist, you probably know that theory is not the same as fighting. Could you please show that those blocks reliably break people's limbs in combat? After that, can you show Lee employing these techniques successfully in combat?Lee is an unproven fighter using many unproven techniques. For all this talk of arm breaking blocks, there is a surprising lack of wing chun fighters out there proving any of this stuff. Limb breaking blocks are definitely legal in competition if someone could do them.
Sadako is actually quite correct with everything he said and it is supported by Ali's fights. In all honestly, the stuff you're advocating is more questionable. The things you describe are the stuff of movies, and haven't been proven reliable in combat.
Wing Chun hasn't fared well in combat that limits its more deadly moves as being illegal. these matches in essence are not true no holds barred matches, because if they were George Saint Pierre, would probably have lost to BJ Penn who is a better fighter, just limited to the rules of MMA competition. These blocks that I explained earlier are proven to work, and it's not used to break an arm, but more to pop the capsule in the elbow. The only scene that I can remember on film similar to this is the fight during Pitch Black, where Vin Diesel has his arm dislocated, by having the capsule in his elbow popped. This is fantasy fiction, but the move that was used on him was pretty much on point, as were it's effect.
This has nothing to do with overpowering the opponent, but using the opponents energy to create the opening in order to execute this move. Like I said, throw a fully extended jab, and notice the pressure placed on you elbow. The amount of force that it takes to displace the elbow is no more than you would use in a simple high five. This is the best that i can explain outside of being with you, and showing you what I mean in person. Ali really had no knowledge of this type of combat.
Bruce Lee has one thing going against him in this debate, and that is that he has no recorded fights. this does not mean that he was not a deadly fighter. Chuck Norris, Jackie Chan, or any of the others that saw Lee would have never said the things about him if he were a hoax. Lee would not have been the competent teacher that he was if he was a hoax. Karrem Abdul Jabbar would have never gave him the props that he did if he were a hoax, or use his training methods to improve his strength as a pro ball player. Do you think that there may be people out there that do not compete in the MMA that could beat the so called best MMA fighters hands down?
Originally posted by Stoic
Ali did not know how to grapple in the technical sense.Ali did not know how to kick in the technical sense.
Originally posted by Stoic
I have personally witnessed a 5'1" women that weighed approximately 120 lbs throw a 6'3" 230 lbs man 5 feet in a non choreographed judo sparring match at my former dojo, and the only reason why the guy was able to get back up , and not break something after being launched was his knowledge of how to break his fall. Size does not mean win. I doubt that Ali knew how to break his fall, and Bruce knew throws. You're taking a one dimensional play by the rules of boxing fighter, and placing him against a no holds barred fighter with more tools, and expect him to win because of size. Believe what you want, and I will believe what I want.
Georges St Pierre is faster and far more skilled than Brock Lesnar, but would still probably lose to Brock in a fight. Heck, the only reason Brock beat Randy Couture is because Brock is built like a gorilla.
Originally posted by Stoic
How tall was Bruce Lee? He wasn't a dwarf. Nor is Ali a giant.You keep thinking one sided, without realizing that one block could stop this from becoming a rapid succession of punches. throw a jab, and fully extend it, notice the pressure that is placed on your elbow at full extension. One block is all that it takes to pop that capsule in your extended elbow, this is truth, all I'm asking you right now is to do it, and see what I mean.
Bruce or any martial artist does not have to stand there and continue blocking, but they could block, and return whatever it is that they might deem necessary to stop it from becoming a beat down. Bruce was not limited to blocks or punches.
Ali's biggest gun in any fight was his great punches, and the power that they could deliver, outside of this, he wasn't a kicker, or grappler. You are absolutely correct that Ali could put a smaller man than himself in trouble, but you may not be able to see that a smaller man of considerable skill may be able to set up a larger man to fight the fight that they choose to dictate. Bruce Lee was 5'6" - 5'7" not 4'11", Ali is 6'3". There is certainly a size difference, but it's hardly the David vs Goliath that many are trying to make it seem.
Ali wasnt a giant (6'3).. Lee wasnt a midget per say 5'6-5'7 est. But the gulf of disparity between the two combined is an insurmountable nightmare for Lee here.
Ali did do a few wrestling things.
He was strong enough to deal with Lee.
MA blocks are two slow to deal with Ali's combos. By the time one shot is blocked the next cluster of shots are on their way and he would not be able to deal with it. Especially as Ali is also like twice Lee's weight...times movement at speed.
Also anyone coming in advertising their attack we cat noises leaving their mouth open when heading in, is heading for the concrete.
Originally posted by StoicAli did not know how to grapple in the technical sense.