Muhammad Ali or Bruce Lee?

Started by Hit_and_Miss163 pages

ya mean how ali use to prop himself up with rope-a-dope fighting tactics to beat people??

[Q]Was Bruce Lee a fake master?[/Q]
A true renaissance man, Bruce Lee was a talented artist, poet, philosopher, writer and actor, apart from being a formidable fighter. Bruce Lee can be considered a prophet in some ways. He combined boxing punches, grappling, low and high kicks in a unique style that was criticised vastly by most traditional martial artists at the time. Today all mixed martial artists are training in a similar way. The difference is that he was brilliant enough to do so more than 35 years ago. If you don’t believe me, watch the opening scene of “Enter the Dragon”. That was a true free fight event.
Back in Lee’s era, no training equipment was available. He had to invent it. His focus gloves and his fighting gloves are very similar to the ones that are used in MMA training today. If you see some techniques in his books (and his films), you will find out that his style can still be used in a ring effectively. The techniques used in his movies are a bit flashier but full of martial arts wisdom. Guess what? He finished most of his opponents with grappling. In "Way of the Dragon " he finishes Chuck Norris with a neck break. In "Game of Death" he beat Kareem Abdul-Jabbar with a headlock. In “The Big Boss” the final fight ends with a mount.
Bruce always seemed so far ahead of his era. The techniques that are used today in JKD schools are (in my opinion, and I don't mean it as an insult) too influenced by Wing Tsun, Kali and Fillipino martial arts. I mean, I haven't seen a JKD guy that can really kick. Come on guys, Bruce was a great kicker.
Bruce proved to everyone that it is not how much you train, but how smart you train. Many people have said a lot of bad things about Bruce. Some claim that his physique was too skinny to withstand a powerful blow. Others say that although he embodied the use of free weights in his training, he could not lift as much as today’s champions do. Others say that he was not really ring proven. I have seen all his movies and studied them very carefully and I must say that I learned more by watching his movies alone than I ever learned in any seminar or by watching any training tape. The techniques used in his books are the most inspiring I have ever seen. There are many books out there but every book has a technique or two that are useless. His books have none.
Bruce Lee joined tradition and common sense for the very first time in modern martial arts. He could have just accepted that he was a student of one of the last martial arts Masters, Yip Man, could have just been a representative of Wing Tsun kung fu in the US and just made money. But Bruce Lee had a restless spirit. Sooner or later he found out the main weakness of Wing Tsun: its attacks are not strong enough. Some people will just not go down with a few punches. Today we see in mixed martial arts events that some fighters can take several good blows in the head and still be able to grab you and take you down.
Bruce created a unique style of fighting which is very effective in the way he used it. Here are some strong points:
1.He used kicks to the head. If he did not use them (like some people claim) he would not train for them. Kicks to the head CAN be very effective, especially roundhouse kicks. I have seen hundreds of fights. I haven’t seen anyone take a good roundhouse kick to the head and not go down. Even a tough fighter like Don Frye could not survive against a good roundhouse kick thrown to him by Jerome Le Banner.
2. He was one of the first to use boxing training methods and protective equipment in sparring.
3. He explained why a technique is effective before he taught it. Back then, in other martial arts, you either accepted tradition or you were out of the school.
4. He trained his punches and kicks against live targets (like focus gloves) or against the fearsome body bag. The noise of a snapping gi was not enough for him. He had to know that his attacks were effective.
5. He was the first martial arts master that stressed the importance of a cardiovascular workout. He was really tired of seeing big-bellied masters that would not last a single round against a boxer in a ring. For Bruce, the best kind of endurance and cardiovascular training was running.
6. Most martial arts make a common mistake in their training. They train their students against attacks that are used in a stiff and robot-like manner. No enemy ever attacks like that. And you can be sure that most attackers will not attack you with a reverse punch or using a traditional martial arts move. Bruce trained his students against boxing punches and tae kwon do kicks.
The list can go on forever. Bruce Lee contributed a lot to martial arts. Some can argue that he was just a man but in the end isn’t everyone? He will be in our hearts forever. Bruce Lee is considered by our website the greatest martial artist of the 20th century and no one can change our minds.

We have discussed his false writing and training at length, show me something real, reposted to prove a point below your post.

Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
ya mean how ali use to prop himself up with rope-a-dope fighting tactics to beat people??

[Q]Was Bruce Lee a fake master?[/Q]
A true renaissance man, Bruce Lee was a talented artist, poet, philosopher, writer and actor, apart from being a formidable fighter. Bruce Lee can be considered a prophet in some ways. He combined boxing punches, grappling, low and high kicks in a unique style that was criticised vastly by most traditional martial artists at the time. Today all mixed martial artists are training in a similar way. The difference is that he was brilliant enough to do so more than 35 years ago. If you don’t believe me, watch the opening scene of “Enter the Dragon”. That was a true free fight event.
Back in Lee’s era, no training equipment was available. He had to invent it. His focus gloves and his fighting gloves are very similar to the ones that are used in MMA training today. If you see some techniques in his books (and his films), you will find out that his style can still be used in a ring effectively. The techniques used in his movies are a bit flashier but full of martial arts wisdom. Guess what? He finished most of his opponents with grappling. In "Way of the Dragon " he finishes Chuck Norris with a neck break. In "Game of Death" he beat Kareem Abdul-Jabbar with a headlock. In “The Big Boss” the final fight ends with a mount.
Bruce always seemed so far ahead of his era. The techniques that are used today in JKD schools are (in my opinion, and I don't mean it as an insult) too influenced by Wing Tsun, Kali and Fillipino martial arts. I mean, I haven't seen a JKD guy that can really kick. Come on guys, Bruce was a great kicker.
Bruce proved to everyone that it is not how much you train, but how smart you train. Many people have said a lot of bad things about Bruce. Some claim that his physique was too skinny to withstand a powerful blow. Others say that although he embodied the use of free weights in his training, he could not lift as much as today’s champions do. Others say that he was not really ring proven. I have seen all his movies and studied them very carefully and I must say that I learned more by watching his movies alone than I ever learned in any seminar or by watching any training tape. The techniques used in his books are the most inspiring I have ever seen. There are many books out there but every book has a technique or two that are useless. His books have none.
Bruce Lee joined tradition and common sense for the very first time in modern martial arts. He could have just accepted that he was a student of one of the last martial arts Masters, Yip Man, could have just been a representative of Wing Tsun kung fu in the US and just made money. But Bruce Lee had a restless spirit. Sooner or later he found out the main weakness of Wing Tsun: its attacks are not strong enough. Some people will just not go down with a few punches. Today we see in mixed martial arts events that some fighters can take several good blows in the head and still be able to grab you and take you down.
Bruce created a unique style of fighting which is very effective in the way he used it. Here are some strong points:
1.He used kicks to the head. If he did not use them (like some people claim) he would not train for them. Kicks to the head CAN be very effective, especially roundhouse kicks. I have seen hundreds of fights. I haven’t seen anyone take a good roundhouse kick to the head and not go down. Even a tough fighter like Don Frye could not survive against a good roundhouse kick thrown to him by Jerome Le Banner.
2. He was one of the first to use boxing training methods and protective equipment in sparring.
3. He explained why a technique is effective before he taught it. Back then, in other martial arts, you either accepted tradition or you were out of the school.
4. He trained his punches and kicks against live targets (like focus gloves) or against the fearsome body bag. The noise of a snapping gi was not enough for him. He had to know that his attacks were effective.
5. He was the first martial arts master that stressed the importance of a cardiovascular workout. He was really tired of seeing big-bellied masters that would not last a single round against a boxer in a ring. For Bruce, the best kind of endurance and cardiovascular training was running.
6. Most martial arts make a common mistake in their training. They train their students against attacks that are used in a stiff and robot-like manner. No enemy ever attacks like that. And you can be sure that most attackers will not attack you with a reverse punch or using a traditional martial arts move. Bruce trained his students against boxing punches and tae kwon do kicks.
The list can go on forever. Bruce Lee contributed a lot to martial arts. Some can argue that he was just a man but in the end isn’t everyone? He will be in our hearts forever. Bruce Lee is considered by our website the greatest martial artist of the 20th century and no one can change our minds.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Bruce Lee Plagiarist 😂 more Lee Fakery

http://www.martialdirect.com/articles/bruceleept1.htm

The Tao of Jeet Kune Do

"...It is a constant, rapid shifting of ground, seeking the slightest closing which will greatly increase the chances of hitting the opponent."

Sports Illustrated: Book of Fencing

"It is a constant rapid shifting of ground, seeking the slight closing of distance, which will greatly increase the chances of hitting the opponent."

Most JKD people are aware that Bruce Lee borrowed many ideas from western fencing, but did you know that this was an almost direct quote?

The copyright on the Sports Illustrated: Book of Fencing is 1960, 1962. It was published in 1962. Now Bruce Lee would have been in Seattle at this time and still attending Edison Technical School. It is very doubtful that Lee would have written this first. Also, Lee was still very much Wing Chun oriented in his fighting style. It was not until the late sixties that Lee coined the term "Jeet Kune Do", which we have been told consists mainly of Wing Chun, boxing, and western fencing.

Here are a couple of examples where Bruce Lee took someone else's words and either simply inserted "Jeet Kune Do" or changed it slightly to accommodate an unarmed combat art.

One that I have heard repeated many times over the years and Bruce Lee even included in a personal letter to a fan named "John", in only slightly different wording, is:

The Tao of Jeet Kune Do

"With all the training thrown to the wind, with a mind perfectly unaware of its own working, with the self vanishing nowhere, anybody knows where, the art of Jeet Kune Do attains its perfection."

Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori (1571-1646) Japanese swordsman

"...When this is realized, with all the training thrown to the winds, with a mind perfectly unaware of its own workings, with the self vanished nowhere anybody knows, the art of swordsmanship attains its perfection and one who has it is called a meijin."

This was written over 300 years ago! It appears to be an adopted philosophy that should be credited to Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori, not Bruce Lee.

Here is yet another passage adapted to Bruce Lee's art of Jeet Kune Do.

The Tao of Jeet Kune Do

"Approach Jeet Kune Do with the idea of mastering the will. Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life! Do not be concerned with your escaping safely- lay your life before him!"

Cited in D.T. Suzuki's Zen and Japanese Culture, (copyright 1959) is a commentary note in the book called Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai that reads:

"Araki Matayemon [a great swordsman of the Tokugawa era] gave this instruction to his nephew, Watanabe Kazuma, when they were about to engage in the deadly fight with their enemy: 'Let the enemy touch your skin and you cut into his flesh; let him cut into your flesh and you pierce into his bones; let him pierce into your bones and you take his life!' "

Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai (Hagakure meaning "hidden leaves" or "hidden by leaves"😉 was written by Yamamoto Tsunetomo and first published on September 10, 1716. Again, there should be no doubt as to the original author. Bruce Lee changed the wording to suit his art, but the origins are clearly seen.

And there is another instance I'd like to mention. This is stated in the book The Warrior Within, by John Little as:Look at the similarities of the words used: Bruce Lee D.T. Suzuki
1.) blocks and strikes instinctively he instinctively parries
2.) begins when a person starts his training as soon as the training starts
3.) original self/sense of freedom original sense of innocence/freedom
4.) mind tends to freeze makes the mind 'stop'
5.) spontaneous stage "no-mind-ness"
6.) after years of serious...practice as days and years go by

This is a Zen concept of learning and can be applied to almost anything. My point is the similarity in wording. The words of Bruce Lee have been published as though the idea of the three stages were his own creation.

etc etc etc

it was obvious he was a master martial artist. any fool cud see that. and id love to see bruce destory ali.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Mindship my friend please read back through the thread.

I have one question for you. Why do we have weight divisions, if little guys are so tough?

because little boxers are different to little martial artists

Originally posted by Deano
because little boxers are different to little martial artists

Not really weight divisions exist in all contact sports. Little Martial artists are funny 😉

funny..and deadly. martial artists are trained in all aspects. boxers woudnt stand a chance imo

Originally posted by Deano
funny..and deadly. martial artists are trained in all aspects. boxers woudnt stand a chance imo

Boxing comes from the root martial art Pankration. It's what other martial arts would like to be 😉

i can see the fight now..ali jabs, bruce lee grabs arm and breaks it.

fight over

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Little Martial artists are funny 😉

Sounds like a good smilie.

Originally posted by Deano
i can see the fight now..ali jabs, bruce lee grabs arm and breaks it.

fight over

😂 Bruce Lee had very poor grappling skills, his one real fight with Wong Jackman according to everyone but his wife and friends he lost. Ali made Inoki a japanese champion heavyweight wrestler and Karate expert look silly.

😉

Do you think Lee was strong? 😖hifty:

karate sucks.

bruce getting beat was probably myth. someone said it was a tie.
when they was fighting it was in the early 60's and bruce was not at his peak.

so what if he did get beat anyway, it was by another excellent martial artist. and thats what this argument is about really. boxer vs martial artist

Originally posted by Deano
karate sucks.

bruce getting beat was probably myth. someone said it was a tie.
when they was fighting it was in the early 60's and bruce was not at his peak.

so what if he did get beat anyway, it was by another excellent martial artist. and thats what this argument is about really. boxer vs martial artist

No it's really about a big pro athlete v a small actor

Fight Record

Ali Olympic champion

Heavyweight wins as a pro 53

Lee O bouts

Boxers seem to flatten them in MMA bouts

more whirly quotes from anti-bruce sites... Great... You ask for real and then go believing the first page you read with an anti-bruce flavor to it...

Could ali deal with someone who wasn't a slugger?
Someone who was fast then him, and used his legs?
Someone who trainned to fight against his style, while ali wouldn't know the first thing of bruces tech?

whats ali got again??? A record againt boxers... not against any other fighter....

Originally posted by Deano
nah, bruce would kick the shit out of him, literally. your obviously biased

I'm biased, but you're the one saying Bruce will win by using something he has NEVER been shown capable of doing before. Riiiight.
Originally posted by Deano
karate sucks.

Do you know anything about combat sports? There are plenty of good karate fighters out there. Andy Hug, the guy in my sig, was one of them. He has taken down Muay Thai fighter and K-1 CHAMPION Ernesto Hoost several times. He has also soundly defeated various other fighters, but I don't have the time to list them all. Don't start talking about something you don't know anything about please.
Originally posted by Deano
bruce getting beat was probably myth. someone said it was a tie.
when they was fighting it was in the early 60's and bruce was not at his peak.

Bruce winning was definitely a myth.
Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
whats ali got again??? A record againt boxers... not against any other fighter....

What's Lee got again? A record against noone...not against any fighter.

Originally posted by Deano
so what if he did get beat anyway, it was by another excellent martial artist. and thats what this argument is about really. boxer vs martial artist

I am so sorry but this deserved its own post.

Wong Jackman is not an excellent martial artist. He is as bad as Lee was only he didn't get famous for it.

.....AHAHAHAHAHAAH Wong Jackman......ahahahahaahah....an excellent marti....AHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

Holy crap. I forgot Deano was from the sports forum. I just wanted to say......

Combat sports>>>>>>>>>soccer.devil

Originally posted by Deano
funny..and deadly. martial artists are trained in all aspects. boxers woudnt stand a chance imo

Depends on the boxer and depends on the martial artists (obviously). Both of these vatos are excellent representatives of their fighting styles. The fight will probably end in less than ten seconds or go on for a long time. If Ali could land a solid punch anywhere on Lee's torso--not to mention head--that fool is out for the count! If Lee land a good solid kick on Ali, then he's out also. At only 5'7 and 140lbs, Lee is no where near Ali's strength and couldn't even begin to grapple with him. Bruce would no doubt rely only on kicks, because he's too smart to think he could out-box Ali.

The weakness of Kung Fu is its lack of physical strength, since its made to fend off multiple attackers---but one-on-one confrontations are boxing's specialty. Maybe Ali could rope-a-dope against some object and capatilize when Bruce relents, que no?

Originally posted by StyleTime
I am so sorry but this deserved its own post.

Wong Jackman is not an excellent martial artist. He is as bad as Lee was only he didn't get famous for it.

.....AHAHAHAHAHAAH Wong Jackman......ahahahahaahah....an excellent marti....AHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

agreed!!! 😆

to beat bruce lee then you had to be good

Originally posted by Deano
to beat bruce lee then you had to be good

We don't know as he refused to fight anyone 😂