Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Bruce Lee Plagiarist more Lee FakeryThe Tao of Jeet Kune Do
"...It is a constant, rapid shifting of ground, seeking the slightest closing which will greatly increase the chances of hitting the opponent."
Sports Illustrated: Book of Fencing
"It is a constant rapid shifting of ground, seeking the slight closing of distance, which will greatly increase the chances of hitting the opponent."
Most JKD people are aware that Bruce Lee borrowed many ideas from western fencing, but did you know that this was an almost direct quote?
The copyright on the Sports Illustrated: Book of Fencing is 1960, 1962. It was published in 1962. Now Bruce Lee would have been in Seattle at this time and still attending Edison Technical School. It is very doubtful that Lee would have written this first. Also, Lee was still very much Wing Chun oriented in his fighting style. It was not until the late sixties that Lee coined the term "Jeet Kune Do", which we have been told consists mainly of Wing Chun, boxing, and western fencing.
Here are a couple of examples where Bruce Lee took someone else's words and either simply inserted "Jeet Kune Do" or changed it slightly to accommodate an unarmed combat art.
One that I have heard repeated many times over the years and Bruce Lee even included in a personal letter to a fan named "John", in only slightly different wording, is:
The Tao of Jeet Kune Do
"With all the training thrown to the wind, with a mind perfectly unaware of its own working, with the self vanishing nowhere, anybody knows where, the art of Jeet Kune Do attains its perfection."
Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori (1571-1646) Japanese swordsman
"...When this is realized, with all the training thrown to the winds, with a mind perfectly unaware of its own workings, with the self vanished nowhere anybody knows, the art of swordsmanship attains its perfection and one who has it is called a meijin."
This was written over 300 years ago! It appears to be an adopted philosophy that should be credited to Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori, not Bruce Lee.
Here is yet another passage adapted to Bruce Lee's art of Jeet Kune Do.
The Tao of Jeet Kune Do
"Approach Jeet Kune Do with the idea of mastering the will. Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life! Do not be concerned with your escaping safely- lay your life before him!"
Cited in D.T. Suzuki's Zen and Japanese Culture, (copyright 1959) is a commentary note in the book called Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai that reads:
"Araki Matayemon [a great swordsman of the Tokugawa era] gave this instruction to his nephew, Watanabe Kazuma, when they were about to engage in the deadly fight with their enemy: 'Let the enemy touch your skin and you cut into his flesh; let him cut into your flesh and you pierce into his bones; let him pierce into your bones and you take his life!' "
Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai (Hagakure meaning "hidden leaves" or "hidden by leaves"😉 was written by Yamamoto Tsunetomo and first published on September 10, 1716. Again, there should be no doubt as to the original author. Bruce Lee changed the wording to suit his art, but the origins are clearly seen.
And there is another instance I'd like to mention. This is stated in the book The Warrior Within, by John Little as:
The Three Stages of Cultivation
(Bruce Lee's words)
"The first stage is the primitive stage. It is a stage of original ignorance in which a person knows nothing about the art of combat...he simply blocks and strikes instinctively..."
"The second stage- the stage of sophistication, or mechanical stage- begins when a person starts his training. He is taught the different ways of blocking, striking,...Unquestionably, he has gained the scientific knowledge of combat, but unfortunately his original self and sense of freedom are lost, and his action no longer flows by itself...his mind tends to freeze at different movements..."
"The third stage- the stage of artlessness, or spontaneous stage- occurs when, after years of serious and hard practice, the student realizes that after all, gung fu is nothing special..."In D.T. Suzuki's book Zen and Japanese Culture, (copyright 1959) he writes about Zen as it applies to swordsmanship. Look at the remarkable similarity!
"To state it in terms of swordsmanship, the genuine beginner knows nothing about the way of holding and managing the sword...when the opponent tries to strike him, he instinctively parries it."
"But as soon as the training starts, he is taught how to handle the sword,...and many other technical tricks- which makes the mind 'stop' at various junctures. For this reason whenever he tries to strike the opponent he feels unusually hampered; [he has lost altogether the original sense of innocence and freedom]."
"But as days and years go by, as his training acquires fuller maturity, his bodily attitude and his way of managing the sword advance toward 'no-mind-ness,' which resemble the state of mind he had at the very beginning of training when he knew nothing, when he was altogether ignorant of the art. The beginning and the end thus turn into nextdoor neighbors."Look at the similarities of the words used: Bruce Lee D.T. Suzuki
1.) blocks and strikes instinctively he instinctively parries
2.) begins when a person starts his training as soon as the training starts
3.) original self/sense of freedom original sense of innocence/freedom
4.) mind tends to freeze makes the mind 'stop'
5.) spontaneous stage "no-mind-ness"
6.) after years of serious...practice as days and years go byThis is a Zen concept of learning and can be applied to almost anything. My point is the similarity in wording. The words of Bruce Lee have been published as though the idea of the three stages were his own creation. In The Warrior Within, John Little states about Lee:
"...he drafted a fascinating philosophical treatise, which he called The Three Stages of Cultivation."
And then goes on to describe them.
Suzuki's book was published in 1959. It was a revised and enlarged version of a book published originally in 1938. Bruce Lee would not have even been born in 1938. (b. 1940) He would have just been arriving in the United States in 1959. The preface to Suzuki's revised edition is dated 1958, before Lee's arrival in the States. I think it is safe to say that Suzuki's work pre-dates Lee's.
It should become quite obvious that these examples are not the original works of Bruce Lee. They have been presented to us, the public, as though they were Bruce Lee originals, when most are only copied or adapted personal notes, with a few exceptions.
In Part 2, we will examine direct quotes taken from various sources and more borrowed philosophies of the "Little Dragon."
Bored now - keep looking for the myodynamics destruction of his weights programme and can't find it. I will soon
hiyahh
The guy would be dangerous if he invented anything himself
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Of course a very small man would beat the champion of the world. Martial arts punching has no power, it can break boards but its actual force is limited. Lees kicking reach is probably less than Ali's reach and Ali has 40 odd pounds on him at least.Problems with martial arts strikes. Most people think because boxers don't break boards that they do not hit as hard.
A martial artist will tell you that 4 elements are involved
1) Equilibrium (Balance)
2) Breath Control
3) Reaction Force
4) Concentration
To translate that in to the real world we need Science 😄
Physics 101 coming up
Force = Mass x Velocity2
In other words, force is accumulated in the form of speed, and at the end of the movement, speed is converted into striking force.
But were does the fourth element (concentration) come into play?
The concentration aspect of power, is not one of mind, but of area. As we concentrate that force into a smaller area, the power is increases proportionately. It is like putting a small nozzle on a garden hose... the stream of water exiting the hole is much more powerful than if we just let the water flow without. OR if you look at it from the other direction... a 200lb man standing on thin ice wearing skis... He does not fall through the ice because his weight is dispersed over a large area..
And finally the element called "Reaction Force"
Reaction Force is a very important factor in two ways... In the first way Velocity is affected. i.e. If a car traveling 50mph crashes head on into another car traveling 50 mph, the combined velocity is 100mph. Same is true with a punch or kick... If your opponent is moving in on you when you through your punch, the speed of the punch increased due to the advancement of your aggressor. This is good to know, but reaction force plays an even greater role in our power.
Newton's Law states, "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". In the martial arts, we are constantly retracting one hand to our belt as we send the other one out in a punch. The resulting reaction-force is passed on through the body and arm to the striking hand. In an even more complex fashion, when the hand actually strikes the target, the shock of the blow is passed through the body to the legs to the floor and then is reversed back to the punching hand, adding further force to the blow.
So often in the arts you hear, that size doesn't matter. We demonstrate this with a little person throwing a big person to the ground. But does size matter in breaking? It is my opinion that YES it does, but it can be overcome with the increased speed that smaller people often poses.
The faster you punch, the smaller the area you make contact with, and how fast you pull that hand back after the strike, are bigger factors in the break than size or "Mass".
So Why don't Boxers break Boards? In Mr Lees own immortal words
"Boards do not fight back"Of course, the best boxers can punch as quickly and powerfully as any black belt. Why can't they break concrete blocks too? The answer lies in the nature of their punches. When a boxer throws his fist, he usually ends the movement with follow-through. This gives the punch maximum momentum (golf and tennis players follow through for the same reason), and it can help knock an opponent down. But the impact itself is diffuse: It's meant to jar an opponent's brain, not break a board.
So why are martial arts strikes crap?
Solid as they seem, all materials are at least slightly elastic. Whack them in the right spot and they will start to oscillate. A punch with a follow-through would dampen such oscillations, but a karate chop, by pulling away at the last moment, lets them move freely. If you tweak a rubber band it goes up and down, and the same is true if you tweak a board or a brick with a much greater force. When they reach their elastic limits, they start to yield. In other words, they break.
Fortunately for most of us, reaching that limit in bones is no easy matter. Bone can withstand 40 times more force than concrete, and a cylinder of bone less than an inch in diameter and 21Ú3 inches long can withstand a force of more than 25,000 newtons. Hands and feet can withstand even more than that, because their skin, muscles, ligaments, tendons, and cartilage absorb a great deal of impact. As a result, a well-kicked foot can absorb about 2,000 times as much force as concrete before breaking.
So Martial artists strikes are effective at Breaking boards but to break bones you need force (unless your very lucky) a martial arts strike simply cannot deliver.
However the momentum from a Boxers punch which actually generates more force. if you wish I will explain why in another post.
For this reason alone Ali will knock Lees block off 😆
I hope this ends the Argument to everyones satisfaction 😄
Keep the faith 🤘
Stay Whirly 🙂
Interesting 🙂
Originally posted by Mr Tom Cat
Probably not. 🙁 This is the KMC GDF after all. They get very little round here. 🙁
National Geographic did an interesting show analyzing the various strikes of different MA, the boxer generated more power from a punch then some of the other MA's kicks as well.
Only the Muy Thai knee strike was more dangerous then a boxers punch.
Originally posted by Soleran
National Geographic did an interesting show analyzing the various strikes of different MA, the boxer generated more power from a punch then some of the other MA's kicks as well.Only the Muy Thai knee strike was more dangerous then a boxers punch.
I was aware of this Sol. It's just funny people buy into myths.
Originally posted by Soleran
People still won't get it.
You and others seem to think that Lee would attack Ali like he were attacking a board or some other stationary shit, that is flawed thinking... Lee would punch and kick in the same manner that Ali would punch, to both hit and damage his [living] opponent; simple as that. To think that Lee would try some "focused" board breaking attack in the middle of a street brawl is simply stupid thiking.
Originally posted by Robtard
You and others seem to think that Lee would attack Ali like he were attacking a board or some other stationary shit, that is flawed thinking... Lee would punch and kick in the same manner that Ali would punch, to both hit and damage his [living] opponent; simple as that. To think that Lee would try some "focused" board breaking attack in the middle of a street brawl is simply stupid thiking.
Mind reader huh?
That's not what I was thinking, I was thinking Ali has a reach advantage, a weight advantage is and Lee isn't going to take one full punch to his head without a lights out.
Where I'm certain Ali can survive multiple blows from Lee, we have seen his stamina in the ring, that cannot be said about Lee though.
Originally posted by Soleran
Mind reader huh?That's not what I was thinking, I was thinking Ali has a reach advantage, a weight advantage is and Lee isn't going to take one full punch to his head without a lights out.
Where I'm certain Ali can survive multiple blows from Lee, we have seen his stamina in the ring, that cannot be said about Lee though.
Not a mind reminder, I was going off your applause of Sir Whirly's post about "Martial Arts" only breaking boards and blah blah blah, which was laughable nonsense disguised as pseudo-intellectual logic. Oh, boxing is a "martial art" in of itself...
Now that you put it that way, your argument is definitely better... I disagree that one punch would automatically knock out Lee; though it is possible as anyone hit the correct way can be K.O.'d in one hit, it isn't an easy thing to do, especially on a trained fighter.
Originally posted by Robtard
Not a mind reminder, I was going off your applause of Sir Whirly's post about "Martial Artist" only breaking boards and blah blah blah, which was laughable nonsense disguised as pseudo-intellectual logic.Now that you put it that way, your argument is definitely better... I disagree that one punch would automatically knock out Lee; though it is possible as anyone hit the correct way can be K.O.'d in one hit, it isn't an easy thing to do, especially on a trained fighter.
You obviously didn't do Physics at school his Science is perfect.
Originally posted by Mr Tom Cat
You obviously didn't do Physics at school his Science is perfect.
You obviously are a fool. I am not questioning the science behind it (Force = Mass x Velocity2), but the logic... duh...
He seems to think that all Bruce Lee or any "martial artist" can do is strike quick and break boards. He is wrong on every level, and in case you didn't know boxing is also a "martial arts".
Take Chuck Norris as an example, he has demonstrated his ability to break boards, do you think he used those same strikes when he competed in tournaments? Or do you think those particular "board breaking" hits are just for show and not used in the ring?
Originally posted by Robtard
You obviously are a fool. I am not questioning the science behind it (Force = Mass x Velocity2), but the logic... duh...He seems to think that all Bruce Lee or any "martial artist" can do is strike quick and break boards. He is wrong on every level, and in case you didn't know boxing is also a "martial arts".
Take Chuck Norris as an example, he has demonstrated his ability to break boards, do you think he used those same strikes when he competed in tournaments? Or do you think those particular "board breaking" hits are just for show and not used in the ring?
Boxing is a martial art, yes and a very effective one in MMA competitions. Unlike Wing Chun.
Originally posted by Mr Tom Cat
Boxing is a martial art, yes and a very effective one in MMA competitions. Unlike Wing Chun.
Does it make you feel better repeating what I have previously said? I know boxing is a martial art, I said so and I know boxing is the most effective form of punching, I said so... Bruce Lee integrated western style boxing into his arsenal as he recognized it as a superior punching (striking) art.
Originally posted by Robtard
Does it make you feel better repeating what I have previously said? I know boxing is a martial art, I said so and I know boxing is the most effective form of punching, I said so... Bruce Lee integrated western style boxing into his arsenal as he recognized it as a superior punching (striking) art.
So you know Ali was Lees hero?