NJO Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Revan

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
1.Revan knew the most about the both jedi and sith then anyone ever. He plundered the tombs of all the powerful sith lords and soaked up every piece of knowledge there was to know, as well as learning all there was to know about the jedi, hell he learned how to fight from tulak hord marka ragnos and naga sadow, Revan pretty much knew every single combat trick the ancient jedi and sith ahd to offer.

Does Revan realy now that much ? Look what time he had to become familiar with Sith teachings. He got in contact with that for the first time at the end of the Mandalorian wars. That is 3960 years BBY and he disappears 3955 years BBY. Since he was turned back to the light side in 3957 BBY he had only 3 years to learn about the Sith.

Now compare that to Luke. He had at least 20 years from Dark Empire to NJO times to study Sith teachings. He had an entire Sith library, several Jedi Holocrons and he was instructed by Palpatine/Sidious who had 90 years of time studying the Sith.

2. He invented/learned thousands of ways to kill jedi and sith. As I said before he learned everything there was to know but not only that he created ways. Revan literally killed or turned every single jedi/sith that ever opposed him, hell he doesn't need to beat luke with a lightsaber (which he could) he could probably turn him to the darkside, it wouldn't be that hard Revan had done it thousands of times before, he'd just kill those luke cared for and play with his mind at every chance he got, Revan quite literally either knew or invented every single method the known to either defeat or turn a jedi.

That is somehow fanboyish. Sorry. Revan beating NJO Luke with a lightsaber is nearly impossible. NJO Luke in lightsaber combat might be seen as a mixture of more force power than Yoda had combined with the physical strength of Anakin/Darth Vader and 30 years of fighting experience (Revan doesn't have that much).

And turning NJO Luke to the Dark Side is impossible since NJO Luke does not even believe in the Dark Side. He can utilize his "darker" feelings as a weapon for the light side (like Mace Windu with his Vaapad).

Revan would know where luke's every saber stroke would land and be able to counter with a lethal blow almost every time.

Luke has the ability to make himself unable to be sensed through the force. Revan can't use prediction against him since he would fight something like a black hole in the force while Luke would have more lightsaber training and could use his prediction abilities against Revan. Revan is pretty much toast.

4.Experience. Not hard to figure out Revan won every war he ever fought in almost single handedly he destroyed the mandalorians at the peak of their power and they were no pushovers I mean jango fett who was far from the best mandalorian killed 12 jedi barehanded, and jango fett pretty much effortlessly anhilated them. He then brought the republic to it's knees anhilating their entire army under the command of jedi and generals far superior to thos of a couple thousand years later. But that's not all he then destroyed the sith empire which by the way had infinite ressources troops and countless sith which he cut through like butter, as well as a sith lord whos power surpassed almost every single sith that followed. all that with like a quarter of the knowledge which he then regained and used to control an entire flipping sun that's right not just a star a sun (I know a star is a sun but it's much larger and i mean MUCH) to kill almost every jedi and then he went and took on the sith empire pretty much singlehandedly till the exile came along.

Now...what should this tell to us ?
NJO Luke always was engaged in combat or conflicts for the last 30 years of his life. He defeated the Galactic Empire he defeated the YV (killing 1000s of them alone in a single battle). Controlling a sun ? Pff... NJO Luke can control black holes, any kind of gravity, can wreck entire starfleets with force power.
And where did Revan defeat the Sith Empire ? It is said that he wanted to do that. Did he ? Nobody knows.

4. Ability. Revan had powers that after he died,(assuming he did as a true sith never dies SUPPOSEDLY) were never seen again, deathfield,kill,force storm,destroy droid just to name a few no sith lord following revan could ever us lightning on more then one target let alone kill someone,choke yes but just kill no. Revan also had mastered every single form of lightsaber combat he had a form like no other as he literally combined them all to suit his needs,(I don't know this as a fact i will admit but why know them all if he wouldn't use them?) so with greater force knowledge and lightsaber form he has a definite edge.

a)
Luke has much greater abilites than Revan and he is able to stop everything Revan could use on him.

b)
Lightsaber combat is not only about the knowledge of fighting styles. There is a scene in the book about Darth Maul where Yoda demonstrates something to some Padawans. He is without a weapon and gets attacked by Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Dipa Billaba and none of them can even touch him. NJO Luke would surely be able to do the same thing with Revan.

1. He didn't live up to his potential. He COuld have been the most powerful force user ever but when obi-won cut off his legs that potential left him and Revan had arguably nearly as much if not the same amount of potential as him, just look at what kreia said about him and so on, I won't repeat it on the grounds that emperor Revan has listed them in many other debates the difference being he reached his full potential and I'd say even exceeded it.

Anakin and Luke and all the people with Skywalker blood in their body are totally out of any discussion when it comes to "potential".

on the topic of luke he was only 80% as powerful as anakin but he reached his full potential which was about equal to revan the only difference being that Revan had alot more experience and a million times more knowledge of the force and lightsaber comment.

See above when it comes to "force knowledge" and "lightsabers"...Luke had by far more time for learning than Revan had.

While Luke knew a great deal about the jedi he didn't know much about the sith. Revan not only knew more about the jedi but he also knew every single detail about the sith and his ability to manipulate his knowledge of both sides wheras luke is only relying on the light which is half the power of the true force. [/B]

You simply have no clue about Luke. He learned everything about the force. Not just the light side. That is the basic information that leads to his NJO philosophy that there is no dark side of the force just people who do "bad" things with the force when they get carried away by their emotions. He "instakills" enemies during the NJO books. That is nothing a "true" Jedi would do not even think about. NJO Luke is somewhere in a "grey zone" between dark and light using anything he can to serve the light side not caring about if it are Sith abilities (like Force Lightning) or Jedi teachings.
That is the difference between Luke and all Jedi/Sith before him. The ones before him would only stick to the powers that were said to match "their" side of the force while Luke is using both without completely following the philosphy of one side.

wow

Does Revan realy now that much ? Look what time he had to become familiar with Sith teachings. He got in contact with that for the first time at the end of the Mandalorian wars. That is 3960 years BBY and he disappears 3955 years BBY. Since he was turned back to the light side in 3957 BBY he had only 3 years to learn about the Sith.

Now compare that to Luke. He had at least 20 years from Dark Empire to NJO times to study Sith teachings. He had an entire Sith library, several Jedi Holocrons and he was instructed by Palpatine/Sidious who had 90 years of time studying the Sith.

Revan had more sources to learn from, and after the Star Forge he got his memory back so that means about what 30? 35 years? thats more then Luke his 20. And with how much Revan wanted to learn, seeing as it was the only thing he cared about, always learning always testing his strength and his knowledge he probably learned a lot more in those 25 years then Luke did in his 20...

That is somehow fan boyish. Sorry. Revan beating NJO Luke with a lightsaber is nearly impossible. NJO Luke in lightsaber combat might be seen as a mixture of more force power than Yoda had combined with the physical strength of Anakin/Darth Vader and 30 years of fighting experience (Revan doesn't have that much).

And turning NJO Luke to the Dark Side is impossible since NJO Luke does not even believe in the Dark Side. He can utilize his "darker" feelings as a weapon for the light side (like Mace Windu with his Vaapad).

Okay, so saying that Revan will beat Luke with lightsaber is fan boyish, saying it the other way around is nothing out of the ordinary however? When Revan learned from pretty much every source he could and actually faced a lot of Jedi and Dark Jedi in his time... Luke fought with a lightsaber but there is a difference between killing normal people and lightsaber experts...

Luke has the ability to make himself unable to be sensed through the force. Revan can't use prediction against him since he would fight something like a black hole in the force while Luke would have more lightsaber training and could use his prediction abilities against Revan. Revan is pretty much toast.

The force has nothing to do with it, its an Echani gift that he is, only far better then them... Luke doesn't really get much out of this... Only makes him tired.

Now...what should this tell to us ?
NJO Luke always was engaged in combat or conflicts for the last 30 years of his life. He defeated the Galactic Empire he defeated the YV (killing 1000s of them alone in a single battle). Controlling a sun ? Pff... NJO Luke can control black holes, any kind of gravity, can wreck entire starfleets with force power.
And where did Revan defeat the Sith Empire ? It is said that he wanted to do that. Did he ? Nobody knows.

Your right he did defeat the Vong... He never defeated the Galatic Empire however and hasn't faced incredibly powerful force users and not in great numbers. Revan has, this gives Revan an advantage over Luke because he knows how to fight force users...

a)
Luke has much greater abilites than Revan and he is able to stop everything Revan could use on him.

b)
Lightsaber combat is not only about the knowledge of fighting styles. There is a scene in the book about Darth Maul where Yoda demonstrates something to some Padawans. He is without a weapon and gets attacked by Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Dipa Billaba and none of them can even touch him. NJO Luke would surely be able to do the same thing with Revan.

Based on what? Even if he is superior then he isn't that much more powerful, and Revan still has superior lightsaber skills no not only becuase he knows the forms. But because he actually just them fighting against Sith and Jedi... Lots of them and powerful one's.

See above when it comes to "force knowledge" and "lightsabers"...Luke had by far more time for learning than Revan had.

To bad he didn't...

You simply have no clue about Luke. He learned everything about the force. Not just the light side. That is the basic information that leads to his NJO philosophy that there is no dark side of the force just people who do "bad" things with the force when they get carried away by their emotions. He "instakills" enemies during the NJO books. That is nothing a "true" Jedi would do not even think about. NJO Luke is somewhere in a "grey zone" between dark and light using anything he can to serve the light side not caring about if it are Sith abilities (like Force Lightning) or Jedi teachings.
That is the difference between Luke and all Jedi/Sith before him. The ones before him would only stick to the powers that were said to match "their" side of the force while Luke is using both without completely following the philosphy of one side.

According to Kreia, neither does Revan. He just does whats necessary. And he knows both sides of the force so this could very well be true besides Kreia would probably know.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Does Revan realy now that much ? Look what time he had to become familiar with Sith teachings. He got in contact with that for the first time at the end of the Mandalorian wars. That is 3960 years BBY and he disappears 3955 years BBY. Since he was turned back to the light side in 3957 BBY he had only 3 years to learn about the Sith.

Now compare that to Luke. He had at least 20 years from Dark Empire to NJO times to study Sith teachings. He had an entire Sith library, several Jedi Holocrons and he was instructed by Palpatine/Sidious who had 90 years of time studying the Sith.

That is somehow fanboyish. Sorry. Revan beating NJO Luke with a lightsaber is nearly impossible. NJO Luke in lightsaber combat might be seen as a mixture of more force power than Yoda had combined with the physical strength of Anakin/Darth Vader and 30 years of fighting experience (Revan doesn't have that much).

And turning NJO Luke to the Dark Side is impossible since NJO Luke does not even believe in the Dark Side. He can utilize his "darker" feelings as a weapon for the light side (like Mace Windu with his Vaapad).

Luke has the ability to make himself unable to be sensed through the force. Revan can't use prediction against him since he would fight something like a black hole in the force while Luke would have more lightsaber training and could use his prediction abilities against Revan. Revan is pretty much toast.

Now...what should this tell to us ?
NJO Luke always was engaged in combat or conflicts for the last 30 years of his life. He defeated the Galactic Empire he defeated the YV (killing 1000s of them alone in a single battle). Controlling a sun ? Pff... NJO Luke can control black holes, any kind of gravity, can wreck entire starfleets with force power.
And where did Revan defeat the Sith Empire ? It is said that he wanted to do that. Did he ? Nobody knows.

a)
Luke has much greater abilites than Revan and he is able to stop everything Revan could use on him.

b)
Lightsaber combat is not only about the knowledge of fighting styles. There is a scene in the book about Darth Maul where Yoda demonstrates something to some Padawans. He is without a weapon and gets attacked by Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Dipa Billaba and none of them can even touch him. NJO Luke would surely be able to do the same thing with Revan.

Anakin and Luke and all the people with Skywalker blood in their body are totally out of any discussion when it comes to "potential".

See above when it comes to "force knowledge" and "lightsabers"...Luke had by far more time for learning than Revan had.

You simply have no clue about Luke. He learned everything about the force. Not just the light side. That is the basic information that leads to his NJO philosophy that there is no dark side of the force just people who do "bad" things with the force when they get carried away by their emotions. He "instakills" enemies during the NJO books. That is nothing a "true" Jedi would do not even think about. NJO Luke is somewhere in a "grey zone" between dark and light using anything he can to serve the light side not caring about if it are Sith abilities (like Force Lightning) or Jedi teachings.
That is the difference between Luke and all Jedi/Sith before him. The ones before him would only stick to the powers that were said to match "their" side of the force while Luke is using both without completely following the philosphy of one side.

Revan doesn't now that much, he 'knows' that much. And your being completely arrogant. Revan had a thrist fro knowledge all his life. Revan learned fives (Maybe 4) times as much as Lke.

Revan came across alot more information than luke did, he pretty much learned from every single ancient sith lord as well as everything the jedi knew and he used both which put him in as much of a grey zone as luke revan didn't have as much time maybe but he certainly learned more, as for it being impossible for Revan not to beat NJO in lightsaber combat isn't that a bit on the fanboyish side? luke was great with a saber and all but revan simply had so much more knowledge and practice with/against lightsabers that he'd quickly find a flaw in luke's form than rutheleessly exploit it, also the ability to get look to get angry and do something stupid is definitly possible he is after all a skywalker... as for Revan being inferior with his force powers that's not true at all where do you think luke got all his knowledge from people like Revan who'd soaked up knowledge from people like sadow (who could make stars go supernova well beyond merley controlling gravity which isn't such a big deal, by throughing things with the force you're controlling gravity in a sense, controlling a sun is definitley a big deal and all these special powers that luke had were known to revan he just never had a need to use them how can i say this if i never see revan use them it's quite simple, he literally knew almost everything there was to know about the force. finally on the topic of revans battle pre-cog that's not as much a force ability as an echani ability never mind that luke isn't completely invisible to the force all the time he was only invisible at certain times and duringg a duel with revan he wouldn't have the time to be able to make himself invisible. when revan fights he pretty much lets the force fight for him so luke avoiding Revan like yoda avoided those other jedi is a joke, and for your luke had more time to learn arguement let me ask you this, if someone studied for a test for 3 days but studied 20 hours a day opposed to someone who studied 5 days for 5 hours a day who would have studied more and consumed more knowledge, it's not hard to figure out Revan devoted his entire life to learning about the force so anything luke could throw at him would be old news.

NJO Luke could kick Revan's tail, just read Revan DarkStar's posts and Nai Fohl's. Its contains all the evidence we need to know who would win.

Darkstar himself admits that Revan would win and read some of the points backing revan nothing luke could do would be new to revan and revans accomplishments are just as great now add his amazing lightsaber ability and you'll realize that Revan could probably win.

I am undesided right now. I'm just going to throw some facts/opinions out.

Here are some common misconceptions about Revan.

1. He knows everything.

Have we, as a race, gotten dumber over time. NO. We've gone from being retardedn nomads to using fire and stone tolls to cheap computers and leaving the planet. We. as a race, have definatly gotten smarter over time. I see no reason for this to have happened in the SW universe.

Also, why does everyone think that ALL knowlege is found in Malacor V. It is never said to encompass the entire planet. It may have less knowlege than a holocron for all anyone knows.

2. Fighting through the Star Forge is as much as Luke fight through the Yuuzhan Vong headquarters.

Firstly, Yuuzhan Vong are a warrior species who use melee weapons called amphistaffs. Fighting with Yuuzhan Vong is like going against another lightsaber weilder because they use melee weapons.

Luke killed more melee people in one fight than Revan probably killed in his entire life.

Also, if you count, Revan killed less than two hundred people total aboard the Star Forge. This is even all lightsaber weilders, most of them use guns or are droids that suck. And they dont just suck because you are playing as a very powerful character, it's because they are droids.

3. Revan is the only one who could hit more than one person with force lightning.

I am just going to say it right now, this is major bull crap. jacen Solo could do it and hit several people. Sure Jacen was pretty powerful after Tratior and his teachings from Vegere. And dont forget that he fought more people than many other JEDI MASTERS.

Sidious never had more than one person that he wanted to hit, and the Exile was also able to do this. Dont forget Kreia, Handmaiden, Atton, Bastila, the Seer(cant remember he name), Mira, Bao-dur, Juhani, Jolee, ect.

4. Revan killed Malak, the most powerful person alive other than Revan at that time, 8 or 9 times.

I have read Revan both LS and DS on different occasions is canon. Since he seems in later ones to be neither, he can probably use both types of powers. This means that he probably used death feild on the Danttoine Jedi and only had to beat Malak twice and had all of those Jedi's strenght as his own.

5. Revan got all of his knowlege back after the Star Forge.

Never confirmed. It says rhat he remembered something that he had found in the Unkown Regions and left to find it. It never says that he remembered everything afterwords, just that one thing.

That isn't all that I could go into but I dont feel like doing more for now.

Common misconceptions about Luke.

1. He sucks cause I don't like him.

A lot of people say this it is really gay. How much you like a character has nothing to do with their power.

2. He has almost no experince.

First I will say non-force user experince. Luke may have more experince than Revan actually. He fought the Empire for more than a decade. He then fought the Yuuzhan Vong for another couple of years.

Here are some of the force users that he fought.

The Jensarri.
They are not mentioned much, but in "I, Jedi", Luke drops five of them, not even trying, in under twenty seconds. Granted these arent the most powerful forceusers, but they are still pretty good.

Darth Vader.
Many people say that Vader wasn't trying, but he still did some work. Luke learned a lot from these fights.

Darth Sidious.
He helped to kill the freakin Emperor. Sidious is one bad mofo. He sucked in ep3 with a lightsaber, but his force powers kick butt. Luke withstood a lot of his force lightning and was able to carry a half metal person probably a mile or so condiereing I doubt Sidious would have his office type thing by a possible invasion point(the hanger).

Joruus C'baoth.
Probably one of the most underated characters in SW. He was a clone of Jorus C'baoth, who was a very powerful Jedi Master. Joruus was able to control 37000 minds by himself. Luke managed to beat him, although Mara killed him.

Luuke.
Imagine fighting a replica of youself. YOu would see a lot about how you fight and it would later allow you to get better. Sure Luke didn't kill him either, Mara again, but Luke beat him. (I really hated in those books how Mara was the one who actually kills all of the bad guys.)

Emperor Reborn
I dont know if Luke ever fought this guy because I havent read those books.

Shimera
Another character that people dont even know about, or underate him a lot. He is basicly a DLOS except over a species of Warriors. Finaly someone Luke actauly kills.

Gantorius.
Now Gantorius sucks by himself and Luke never even tried to kill him and had little difficulty blocking his hits, but I put this one in to show that he has beaten someone taught by an Ancient Sith already. Yes, Exar Kun was guiding Gantorius just as Obi-wan guided Luke against Vader on Mimbarri(the place where Luke found that Kyber Crystal).

Yes, I know that Splinter of the Minds Eye is considered an infiniti, and is non-existent even in EU, but the part about the Kyber crystal and that weird old lady is in EU.

3. Luke knows nothing.

Luke knows a lot. Not as much as Revan. He knows a lot though. He has looked at atleast to holocrons. The one Leia found on the Emperor Reborns body, and the one that Exar Kun destroyed. He also found a hidden Jedi Library. He was trained by Yoda, Obi-wan, Joruus, Emperor Reborn and many force ghost.

I will add more later, I am just to lazy.

Despite what I have said, I am still undecided.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I am undesided right now. I'm just going to throw some facts/opinions out.

Here are some common misconceptions about Revan.

1. He knows everything.

Have we, as a race, gotten dumber over time. NO. We've gone from being retardedn nomads to using fire and stone tolls to cheap computers and leaving the planet. We. as a race, have definatly gotten smarter over time. I see no reason for this to have happened in the SW universe.

Also, why does everyone think that ALL knowlege is found in Malacor V. It is never said to encompass the entire planet. It may have less knowlege than a holocron for all anyone knows.

2. Fighting through the Star Forge is as much as Luke fight through the Yuuzhan Vong headquarters.

Firstly, Yuuzhan Vong are a warrior species who use melee weapons called amphistaffs. Fighting with Yuuzhan Vong is like going against another lightsaber weilder because they use melee weapons.

Luke killed more melee people in one fight than Revan probably killed in his entire life.

Also, if you count, Revan killed less than two hundred people total aboard the Star Forge. This is even all lightsaber weilders, most of them use guns or are droids that suck. And they dont just suck because you are playing as a very powerful character, it's because they are droids.

3. Revan is the only one who could hit more than one person with force lightning.

I am just going to say it right now, this is major bull crap. jacen Solo could do it and hit several people. Sure Jacen was pretty powerful after Tratior and his teachings from Vegere. And dont forget that he fought more people than many other JEDI MASTERS.

Sidious never had more than one person that he wanted to hit, and the Exile was also able to do this. Dont forget Kreia, Handmaiden, Atton, Bastila, the Seer(cant remember he name), Mira, Bao-dur, Juhani, Jolee, ect.

4. Revan killed Malak, the most powerful person alive other than Revan at that time, 8 or 9 times.

I have read Revan both LS and DS on different occasions is canon. Since he seems in later ones to be neither, he can probably use both types of powers. This means that he probably used death feild on the Danttoine Jedi and only had to beat Malak twice and had all of those Jedi's strenght as his own.

5. Revan got all of his knowlege back after the Star Forge.

Never confirmed. It says rhat he remembered something that he had found in the Unkown Regions and left to find it. It never says that he remembered everything afterwords, just that one thing.

That isn't all that I could go into but I dont feel like doing more for now.

Common misconceptions about Luke.

1. He sucks cause I don't like him.

A lot of people say this it is really gay. How much you like a character has nothing to do with their power.

2. He has almost no experince.

First I will say non-force user experince. Luke may have more experince than Revan actually. He fought the Empire for more than a decade. He then fought the Yuuzhan Vong for another couple of years.

Here are some of the force users that he fought.

The Jensarri.
They are not mentioned much, but in "I, Jedi", Luke drops five of them, not even trying, in under twenty seconds. Granted these arent the most powerful forceusers, but they are still pretty good.

Darth Vader.
Many people say that Vader wasn't trying, but he still did some work. Luke learned a lot from these fights.

Darth Sidious.
He helped to kill the freakin Emperor. Sidious is one bad mofo. He sucked in ep3 with a lightsaber, but his force powers kick butt. Luke withstood a lot of his force lightning and was able to carry a half metal person probably a mile or so condiereing I doubt Sidious would have his office type thing by a possible invasion point(the hanger).

Joruus C'baoth.
Probably one of the most underated characters in SW. He was a clone of Jorus C'baoth, who was a very powerful Jedi Master. Joruus was able to control 37000 minds by himself. Luke managed to beat him, although Mara killed him.

Luuke.
Imagine fighting a replica of youself. YOu would see a lot about how you fight and it would later allow you to get better. Sure Luke didn't kill him either, Mara again, but Luke beat him. (I really hated in those books how Mara was the one who actually kills all of the bad guys.)

Emperor Reborn
I dont know if Luke ever fought this guy because I havent read those books.

Shimera
Another character that people dont even know about, or underate him a lot. He is basicly a DLOS except over a species of Warriors. Finaly someone Luke actauly kills.

Gantorius.
Now Gantorius sucks by himself and Luke never even tried to kill him and had little difficulty blocking his hits, but I put this one in to show that he has beaten someone taught by an Ancient Sith already. Yes, Exar Kun was guiding Gantorius just as Obi-wan guided Luke against Vader on Mimbarri(the place where Luke found that Kyber Crystal).

Yes, I know that Splinter of the Minds Eye is considered an infiniti, and is non-existent even in EU, but the part about the Kyber crystal and that weird old lady is in EU.

3. Luke knows nothing.

Luke knows a lot. Not as much as Revan. He knows a lot though. He has looked at atleast to holocrons. The one Leia found on the Emperor Reborns body, and the one that Exar Kun destroyed. He also found a hidden Jedi Library. He was trained by Yoda, Obi-wan, Joruus, Emperor Reborn and many force ghost.

I will add more later, I am just to lazy.

Despite what I have said, I am still undecided.

Very good points as for certain aspects about Revan you are mistaken though (no offence) practically all the knowledge Revan had was lost we didn't see any jedi in anakins time who could control an entire sun most of the knowledge from Revan's era simply dissapeared.

2. If you've played Kotor 2 you'd realize that malachor was pretty much a warehouse full of sith holocrons it's shown and kreia says it.

3. We do know as a fact Revan got his memory back later in Kotor 2 there's a holocron with bastilla saying that revans previous memories returned to him.

4. Luke killed more in one battle than Revan did in his entire life, um...no. First off Revan killed thousands of mandalorians and fought his way through them to kill their leader and like the vong the mandalorians are a warrior race. Next Revan turns on the republic and kills tons of jedi, gets mind wiped then kills thousands of sith solidiers destroys a military base a sith academy full of force users a sith embassy full of jedi masters, anhilates an entire alien race, kills a temple full of jedi then destroys every sith aboard the star forge including an entire droid army (in the game they don't show all the droids he actually kills.) hundreds of sith special forces and hundreds of apprentices before defeating either bastilla drawing power from the star forge or 3 sith masters followed by taking on the full full fury of the star forge itself which is possibly thousands of droids than malak the second most powerful force user in the galaxy at the time before going to fight the sith empire (which we don't know if he succeeded or not yet) and possibly killing the exile.

Finally I would like to remind everyone that anything luke could throw at revan force power wise would be old news to him and that Revan is a far superior lightsaber fighter for reasons I've said before that I'm too lazy to repost.

p.s thank you glentract for being competent and knowing what you're talking about.

first off, Frobo, I can't remember saying that Revan would win, actually I think he would loose after a good fight, if I said this differently else where I apologize and retract that statement.

Now about your post:

Yes I agree that he got all his memories back, however like Nai Fohl said, he didn't have that long to learn about the sith on Malachor

Also, how do we know Revan did lots of fighting, we know he was the STARSHIP commander of the republic forces in the Mandalorian wars, we know he killed all those guys on the star forge, Malak, Bandon, Yusanis and Mandalore that is it. About Revan fighting his way through all the Mandalorians and Echani, possible, but it is equally possible that he sent in a dozen jedi to clear out the place before hand, then him Malak and the Exile walked in, Revan killed on person and walked out. It even says that he sent HK-47 after Mandalore, so he certainly wasn't above sending other people in to weaken his oppponet.

Also, I would like to point out that the echani thing is not infalliable, if it was then the best echani warrior would not have died. Also the exile beats up the handmaidens easily. I don't mean the one that comes with you either I faced off against all 5 at once and won easily. So the echani thing is not infalliable.

Also, it is impossible for Revan to know everything about the sith. Alright lets say he studied for 8 hours a day when he was a padawan. Thats nice and all, but he was a padawan, he would not have been allowed to view the most powerful jedi stuff, the things reserved for masters. Heck, if he was lucky he would have seen some basic knight stuff. This is also not disputing Kriea, he was still thirsty for knowledge, but he only mastered the padawan and say half the knight stuff. Then, lets say he became a knight at 18. He was then sent on more missions, but still dedicated 6 to 8 hours a day studying (I thinks that a bit much but still...). Ok, he masters the knight stuff as well. Then he went and fought in the Mandalorian wars. Little room for learning of the force there. The wars ended and he started to learn from Malachor. I think there were 3 years between the mandalorian and sith wars. So even if he studied for 2 of those years (remember he spent some time hunting down the maps and the star forge and getting it to obey him and produce ships, I'm guessing it took a year for that). And say he spent 8 hours a day training himself and 4 training Malak. Even with that he simply could not have read through and mastered everything about the sith. Remember it takes 10 years to master the weakest lightsaber form, it would take a long time to master those powerful force techniques as well. Then he marched off to war again and was soon captured. After defeated Malak, he spent one year at Korriban, but he would have learned little new there, he already knew much of it from Malachor. Then he regains his memerories and that is that last we know of him (so far). So he simply could not have known everything about the jedi and sith.

Luke on the other hand trained for 30 years, but he had no restrictions on his knowledge. Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted him to be the best so they tought him as much as they could of war. He continues to train from their holocrons. After that he trains under the Empeor and gets his libary with 1000 years of sith knowledge (Revan's sith libary also only had 1000 years of knowledge). The difference is that Luke kept his and trained with it for 25 years longer than Revan did. He also found an ancient jedi libary and trained with it for 25 years.

Also it is impossible for him to have mastered every lightsaber form, it takes 10 years to master the weak form VI. Say 15 to 20 for all the others, and Revan was around 30, no matter how much he worked, he could have mastered 3 forms at best. And this also would have made him a complete lightsaber master IN HIS DAY. For my guess is that there were only three forms, the basic duelling one (form I), the advanced duelling one (form II), and the defense one (form III), other people have already argued this, and it makes sense and I agree with them.

About Revan being able to make Luke mad because he is a skywalker, just because Anakin get mad easily (only in episode 1, 2 and 3 though, in the OT he is much calmer), that does not mean Luke will get mad easily. Jaina describes his fighting style as calm and focused. Not something that brings to mind a rage is it?

Also, about the jedi in Anakin's time not blowing up suns, first off that is a sith power, secondly, they were trying to save the galaxy, not destroy it.

About your question, well I will answer with another question. If you were studying for a test and studied for 5 days, 8 hours each day, and your rival was studying for 25 days at 6 hours each day, who will do better and has more knowledge?

"...practically all the knowledge Revan had was lost we didn't see any jedi in anakins time who could control an entire sun most of the knowledge from Revan's era simply dissapeared."

If you look at the planet, you can see there are many ares of it that dont have a library on, like when you go there from the crashed Ebon Hawk. It is probably underground, but it can't take up a lot of space for several reasons.

1. If it was large enough, the planet would not have enough gravity to hold itself toghether and would be at least not spherical and more likly fly apart.

2. There are many gas vents on the planets. These are probably continuly releasing gas because it dosen't make sense for them to release gas only when you are there. These must also take up space and the space would most likly be on the surface, lowering the amount of space for a storage room, shrinking it even futher, again causing the planet to fly apart.

Anyway, you still havent shown why they got dumber over time. we also havent seen any Jedi in anytime control suns. I know you mean force users in general, but no one from Revan's time controlled a sun. I know Naga Sadow could do it and have heard Exar Kun could do it, but no one from Revan's time that I know of could do it.

"...If you've played Kotor 2 you'd realize that malachor was pretty much a warehouse full of sith holocrons it's shown and kreia says it."

See above. Plus, I know there is a lot from KOTOR 2 that probably isnt coming to mind, but I have played it three times already.

"...We do know as a fact Revan got his memory back later in Kotor 2 there's a holocron with bastilla saying that revans previous memories returned to him."

I will check on this one. The holocron is damaged in the blast if your lightside right?

"....Luke killed more in one battle than Revan did in his entire life, um...no. First off Revan killed thousands of mandalorians and fought his way through them to kill their leader and like the vong the mandalorians are a warrior race...."

Revan was the leader, he wasn't doing the up clode and personal fighting like Luke did. I am not sure how he killed that Mandalore, but if on Tatooine you get the Ysuunis(?) Brand, it says that after Revan killed this one Senator or something(it was someone political) he challenged him and was killed in the fighting.

"...Next Revan turns on the republic and kills tons of jedi, gets mind wiped then kills thousands of sith solidiers destroys a military base a sith academy full of force users a sith embassy full of jedi masters, anhilates an entire alien race, kills a temple full of jedi then destroys every sith aboard the star forge including an entire droid army (in the game they don't show all the droids he actually kills.)..."

He dosent kill all of them by himself. He has a third of the Republic military under his command. He also has most of the Jedi from the war on his side.

I assume the military base your talking about is the one on Taris. There was maybe eighty troops in there. There was also that one Sith Governor, but you had Bastila and Carth(that was who I had on my first time) to help you. I'm not saying he couldn't have done it alone, just that he had help.

I am also going to assume that the academy is the one on Korriban. There was about fifty of these REALLY weak force users in there. I mean come on, most of them had just been accepted and had maybe a weak of training. That really isn't much. Kreia even says in KOTOR 2 that she is horrified by the amount of knowlege wasted on those weak stupid fools.

I'll also assume that the embassy is the one on Maanan. Those guys again sucked. Nothing special and there was still less than a hundred in there including the regular troops.

The race I presume is the Rakatan. Well just to let you know, he didn't wipe them out. IN KOTOR 2, there is an item to improve wisdom that says that a species resurfaced that say they were responsible for Revan's huge fleet. They also were not very numerous. Less than a hundred again.

There was also in that Temple about thirty people. Moslty Knights. I think there was like one Master in the whole place. He once again had two people helping him.

This next thing is something commonly though that is very wrong. People think that he killed everyone aboard the Star Forge. He DID NOT KILL EVERYONE ON THE STAR FORGE. H killed only enough to make his way to Malak and fight him. Even the small number of people that he killed was less than two or three hundred. Malak even says specificaly to that one guy(Presumably a master from his armor) to send the apprentices at Revan. "Send the apprentices at him. Master will that be enough to stop him. Of course not, but it will give me time to prepare myself." Or something like that.

You also lack proof that they didn't show all of the droids. Janus will probably say "Lack of proof is not proof of absence", but "lack of proof is not proof of proof". What the hell did I just say? Whatever. Since we didn't see those droids, it dosen't really matter. If that is an inference(like most of what I've said.) Then plese say so or give me a link if you can find it please. You've spiked my intrest.

"...hundreds of sith special forces and hundreds of apprentices before defeating either bastilla drawing power from the star forge or 3 sith masters followed by taking on the full full fury of the star forge itself which is possibly thousands of droids than malak the second most powerful force user in the galaxy at the time before going to fight the sith empire (which we don't know if he succeeded or not yet) and possibly killing the exile."

Like I said before, they aren't shown, so you shouldn't pull people out of the air like that.

Also, those three guys aren't necessarly Masters, they are simply three people he chose to become his students much like Asajj Ventress, Komari Vosa, and Grevious were to Count Dooku. Ventress was beaten by Anakin when He was still a padawan.(I know Maul was killed by a Padawan as well.) Vosa was a maverick force user killed by Jango.

Also, the 'Full fury of the Star Forge" was if you are relativly smart, like Revan would be, atmost 64 droids. Less if you already had comspikes with you.

He killed Malak. Well, there isn't much to say about that.

And, he went to fight the True Sith Empire and killed the Exile. Well, since we haven't seen anything about it yet, I won't personaly count that, you can if you want to. Luke also is dead, but I dont count events he hasn't done yet.

So Revan killed less people in his entire life than Luke killed in one battle. Most of the people Luke fought were also stronger than the ones Revan fought.

"Yuuzhan Vong were on average over twice as good as a Republic soldier."

Looks like I started posting before Darkstar posted.(ate a snack.)

Originally posted by Revan Darkstar
first off, Frobo, I can't remember saying that Revan would win, actually I think he would loose after a good fight, if I said this differently else where I apologize and retract that statement.

Now about your post:

Yes I agree that he got all his memories back, however like Nai Fohl said, he didn't have that long to learn about the sith on Malachor

Also, how do we know Revan did lots of fighting, we know he was the STARSHIP commander of the republic forces in the Mandalorian wars, we know he killed all those guys on the star forge, Malak, Bandon, Yusanis and Mandalore that is it. About Revan fighting his way through all the Mandalorians and Echani, possible, but it is equally possible that he sent in a dozen jedi to clear out the place before hand, then him Malak and the Exile walked in, Revan killed on person and walked out. It even says that he sent HK-47 after Mandalore, so he certainly wasn't above sending other people in to weaken his oppponet.

Also, I would like to point out that the echani thing is not infalliable, if it was then the best echani warrior would not have died. Also the exile beats up the handmaidens easily. I don't mean the one that comes with you either I faced off against all 5 at once and won easily. So the echani thing is not infalliable.

Also, it is impossible for Revan to know everything about the sith. Alright lets say he studied for 8 hours a day when he was a padawan. Thats nice and all, but he was a padawan, he would not have been allowed to view the most powerful jedi stuff, the things reserved for masters. Heck, if he was lucky he would have seen some basic knight stuff. This is also not disputing Kriea, he was still thirsty for knowledge, but he only mastered the padawan and say half the knight stuff. Then, lets say he became a knight at 18. He was then sent on more missions, but still dedicated 6 to 8 hours a day studying (I thinks that a bit much but still...). Ok, he masters the knight stuff as well. Then he went and fought in the Mandalorian wars. Little room for learning of the force there. The wars ended and he started to learn from Malachor. I think there were 3 years between the mandalorian and sith wars. So even if he studied for 2 of those years (remember he spent some time hunting down the maps and the star forge and getting it to obey him and produce ships, I'm guessing it took a year for that). And say he spent 8 hours a day training himself and 4 training Malak. Even with that he simply could not have read through and mastered everything about the sith. Remember it takes 10 years to master the weakest lightsaber form, it would take a long time to master those powerful force techniques as well. Then he marched off to war again and was soon captured. After defeated Malak, he spent one year at Korriban, but he would have learned little new there, he already knew much of it from Malachor. Then he regains his memerories and that is that last we know of him (so far). So he simply could not have known everything about the jedi and sith.

Luke on the other hand trained for 30 years, but he had no restrictions on his knowledge. Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted him to be the best so they tought him as much as they could of war. He continues to train from their holocrons. After that he trains under the Empeor and gets his libary with 1000 years of sith knowledge (Revan's sith libary also only had 1000 years of knowledge). The difference is that Luke kept his and trained with it for 25 years longer than Revan did. He also found an ancient jedi libary and trained with it for 25 years.

Also it is impossible for him to have mastered every lightsaber form, it takes 10 years to master the weak form VI. Say 15 to 20 for all the others, and Revan was around 30, no matter how much he worked, he could have mastered 3 forms at best. And this also would have made him a complete lightsaber master IN HIS DAY. For my guess is that there were only three forms, the basic duelling one (form I), the advanced duelling one (form II), and the defense one (form III), other people have already argued this, and it makes sense and I agree with them.

About Revan being able to make Luke mad because he is a skywalker, just because Anakin get mad easily (only in episode 1, 2 and 3 though, in the OT he is much calmer), that does not mean Luke will get mad easily. Jaina describes his fighting style as calm and focused. Not something that brings to mind a rage is it?

Also, about the jedi in Anakin's time not blowing up suns, first off that is a sith power, secondly, they were trying to save the galaxy, not destroy it.

About your question, well I will answer with another question. If you were studying for a test and studied for 5 days, 8 hours each day, and your rival was studying for 25 days at 6 hours each day, who will do better and has more knowledge?

Revan was known for his fighting ability and that's why the Jedi sent a task force of Jedi Masters (and Bastila) to take him down. And the Echani thing, if you listen to the Handmaiden, only the best of Echani Generals were able to do it, while the rest didn't have the ability.

The Luke having more experience: that's bullshit. Luke had about 5% of the knowledge available to him compared to Revan. Even the Padawan stuff Revan learned was greater than what Luke learned over all. And Revan was the ONLY ONE, the ONLY ONE, to find Tulak Hord' holocron. Were talking about the greatest lightsaber dueler ever.

And what's this shit about them only having three forms? They would have every form except Form 6 and Form 4 laong with Mace's Vaapad. And where did you get the idea it took ten years to msater a lightsaber form? Obi did it in about 5.

Originally posted by HimoKun
The Luke having more experience: that's bullshit. Luke had about 5% of the knowledge available to him compared to Revan. Even the Padawan stuff Revan learned was greater than what Luke learned over all. And Revan was the ONLY ONE, the ONLY ONE, to find Tulak Hord' holocron. Were talking about the greatest lightsaber dueler ever.

Give me some proof that the Padawan stuff Revan learned is greater than the things Luke learned. THAT is bullsh*t. Yoda is said to be the greatest Jedi Master ever and he was Lukes teacher (since he remained within the force he could have done that teachings to Luke for 27 years). So what do you think a normal Jedi Master or a Sith Lord can teach you that somebody who is the greatest Jedi Master ever with 850 years of knowledge can not.

And please. Tulak Hord is said to be the best SITH dueler ever. That doesn't actually mean that he is the best lightsaber dueler ever. Do you think he can beat Yoda who had 800 years time to practice with a lightsaber ? And even if Tulak Hord actually is the best dueler. Learning from the best doesn't make you the best. It doesn't even takes you close to be the best.

And what's this shit about them only having three forms? They would have every form except Form 6 and Form 4 laong with Mace's Vaapad. And where did you get the idea it took ten years to msater a lightsaber form? Obi did it in about 5.

Erm...what ? Obi-Wan did it in about 5 ? Obi-Wan switched from form IV to III directly after the events in TPM and he was master of this form in RotS...that are 13 years not 5.

DarkStar, I am going to have to dispute with you on some things though.

You said there was only three lightsaber forms at that time. Well that is not true because the main forms around at the time of the Jedi Purge were 1-7. Juyo, since they were made in order, was thousands of years before the Clone Wars.

It is also possible to learn a form in less time than you said. That is just the average time.

Form 6, the worst one from a fighters point of veiw, takes ten years to know it, not master it. Mastering it takes a lot longer on average, and few Jedi KNights ever mastered and form. It was mainly Jedi Masters who mastered form.

Form 2 for instance, takes relativly a very long time to master. I read that it took Dooku over fifty years to master it and Dooku was also supposed to be one of the strongest Jedi that had come from the temple in the last several hundred years.

I doubt that Revan only sudied for 8 hours per day. He probably used some technique to allow him to regulary go for extended periods of time with out sleep. If he studied for 20 hours per day over each year he would have studied for 730 hours. Ife he can read a page every thirty seconds(after a while, you can read really fast) (altough probably not in book format) would look like this:

730*365=266,450*24=6,394,800*60=383,688,000*60=23,021,280,000

23,021,280,000*2=46,489,440,000 pages per year.

That is a lot. Luke also didn't learn anything about the force most days because he had nothing that big to learn from.

And sorry, go learn more about SW. NJO LUke is only 28 years after ANH. You kept saying 30.

Originally posted by HimoKun
Revan was known for his fighting ability and that's why the Jedi sent a task force of Jedi Masters (and Bastila) to take him down. And the Echani thing, if you listen to the Handmaiden, only the best of Echani Generals were able to do it, while the rest didn't have the ability.

The Luke having more experience: that's bullshit. Luke had about 5% of the knowledge available to him compared to Revan. Even the Padawan stuff Revan learned was greater than what Luke learned over all. And Revan was the ONLY ONE, the ONLY ONE, to find Tulak Hord' holocron. Were talking about the greatest lightsaber dueler ever.

And what's this shit about them only having three forms? They would have every form except Form 6 and Form 4 laong with Mace's Vaapad. And where did you get the idea it took ten years to msater a lightsaber form? Obi did it in about 5.

That taskforce was not just for Revan. They had to fight there way to him.

And go check you sources you dumbass, many good Echani could do it. The best were just able to predict wars years in advance.

Overall HimoKun, I think you are an incompetent fool.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That taskforce was not just for Revan. They had to fight there way to him.

And go check you sources you dumbass, many good Echani could do it. The best were just able to predict wars years in advance.

Overall HimoKun, I think you are an incompetent fool.

Mofo, the taskforce was specifically meant for Revan. Otherwise, THEY WOULD'VE ATTACKED HIM.

I was wrong, many good Echani can do it. Happy Smart ass?

Err, there are many things I would like to point out here.

1. Someone said Revan only had 3 years to learn about the Sith or something like that. First, he spent many many years learning about the Jedi. He found Malachor V around the start of the mandalorian wars which lasted 3 years. The official KOTOR 2 website says Malachor V is a planet sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. Revan made a base there, studied the holocrons, relics, artifacts etc. learning how to defeat Jedi, how to convert them etc. and the official site says it increased his tremendous power. Remember that he was the only one to fully resist the evil of this planet as well, not even Kreia could do it. He also visited it after killing Malak at least once.

2. He killed hundreds of mandalorians, Jedi, and Sith. Kreia said “even then you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul.” With wars that last 8 years in total he would’ve done a ton of fighting no matter what.

3. In response to what Glentract said, have we as a race gotten weaker? No, but they were far more advanced 5000 years ago then we are now. I personally don’t think tons of knowledge was lost etc. I do believe most force users of the KOTOR time period were generally stronger than TPM Jedi because they have fought way more. Look at how much stronger we see Obi-Wan get from TPM to AOTC. Not much I thought. Now compare it to him in AOTC and ROTS. Imo he got WAY stronger, as did Anakin because they were constantly fighting in a war.

4. Bastila does say (Dark side only) that Revan recovered his FULL memories in that holocron.

5. The Echani thing isn’t all powerful but that was basically the secret to an echani’s power. They are way stronger than average soldiers so give the most advanced echani technique to Revan and it will definitely help.

6. It does NOT take 10 years to learn 1 force form. Anakin mastered Form 1, Form 5, and possibly others by ROTS and he only had 13 years of training.

7. Revan was just as level headed as Luke if not more so. Darth Revan experienced both sides of the Force twice each and uses both sides as well. Luke may have a better understanding of the Light side, but that wouldn’t be by a whole lot and Revan had WAY more dark side knowledge then Luke. As for potential, both Lord Revan and Luke had amazing potential, it’s hard to say who had more.

Lord Revan has everything I can even think of to become more powerful so he wins after a hard fight.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

I doubt that Revan only sudied for 8 hours per day. He probably used some technique to allow him to regulary go for extended periods of time with out sleep. If he studied for 20 hours per day over each year he would have studied for 730 hours. Ife he can read a page every thirty seconds(after a while, you can read really fast) (altough probably not in book format) would look like this:

730*365=266,450*24=6,394,800*60=383,688,000*60=23,021,280,000

23,021,280,000*2=46,489,440,000 pages per year.

That is a lot. Luke also didn't learn anything about the force most days because he had nothing that big to learn from.

And sorry, go learn more about SW. NJO LUke is only 28 years after ANH. You kept saying 30.

No offense, man, but you did your math wrong. Since, with the information used, he studied 730 hours per day and he can read one page per half-minute, you must first find out how many pages he can read per day. This can be done by converting 30 seconds to 24 hours, like so:

30sec x 1min/60sec = 0.5min
0.5min x 1hr/60min = (1/120)hr
(1/120)hr x 1day/20hr = (1/2,400)day

Since the inverse of 1/2,400 is 2,400, Revan, according to you, could read 2,400 pages per day. NOW you can multiply that by the number of days per year. Also, if he studied 20 hours per day, then he would study 20hrs/day x 365.25days/year, which is 7,305 hours per year rather than 730 hours per year.

Anyway, taking the figure of 2,400 pages per day, one can convert this to years thus:

2,400pg/day x 365.25day/yr = 856,600pg/yr.

Thus, he can read 856,600 pages per year. But what does that prove? How is the number of pages one can read really relevant, unless each and every page contributes to Revan's knowledge of the Force in some at least slightly significant way (although some pages could teach Revan more than others)? The scenario also seems maybe slightly weird (reading non-stop 20 hours per day).

REGARDLESS, there are ONLY 365.25 days (accounting for leapyear, once every four years) per EARTH YEAR. That is, the time it takes for the EARTH to revolve around our sun. Also, there are 24 hours per EARTH DAY, or the time it takes for the Earth to make a rotation. A year or day on another planet in another galaxy could be invariably different.

I didn't mean to be nit-picky. I just couldn't pass this post without making some corrections. I mean, calculus and physics technical studies are a couple things I do like (early grad theoretical physics major).

Dipsit, just go with it. We have no other time basis, so we are basing it off of Earth's time.