So Lucifer isn't Satan? That was Satan's name before he became Satan. Lucifer, son of the morning. How could The Beast have been there before the Presence? If that is true, The Presence isn't the creator of everything. He has an equal. In Judeo-Chrisitan theology, Satan is the most powerful of the fallen angels, but he isnt' as powerful as God, and he was created by God. Is the Presence truely supreme?
Originally posted by leonheartmm
thas true but the presence was created at one time. even though its a supreme being.
A supreme being can't be created. A supreme being is one who has always existed, and will always exist, like the Judeo-Christian Jehovah, or the Islamic Allah (who, interestingly, are considered to be the same being.)
Originally posted by Mider
They cant be the supreme beings there part of the ominverse and the ominverse includes this universe as in were we go to this site and post our thoughts and facts.
...which leads me to believe that The Presence may be lower in order than The One Above All. The One Above All has always existed, and is the source of everything that is in the Marvel Omniverse. The Presence has an equal, who may be even more powerful than he is, considering that The Great and Evil Beast existed before the Presence.
If all that you two have said is correct, I don't see why the Presence would be equal to The One Above All. It appears that The Presence is the lesser of the two.
That's my opinion.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
no what i meant was that there was one multiverse created entirely by micheal with his death and the destruction of the older multiverse, this one was not created by lucifer's power, but micheal does not RULE this multiverse, he merely single handedly created it, thas why i refer to it as micheal;s multiverse.
Nope. Michael died only TWICE. One was when Lucifer found him dying on Sandalphon's hideout. Lucifer offered him death and rebirth if he allowed Lucifer to kill him. But Michael would die in the Void, outside existence. Michael agreed since if he died in the multiverse, the Demiurgic Energy will pour out of him and will destroy the entire existence. So Lucifer killed Michael in the Void which in turn the Demiurgic Energy poured out of Michael's body and created Matter. After Michael was resurrected and left. Lucifer began to shape that matter into suns, stars, planets, etc. Thus Lucifer's Multiverse was created.
The second time he "died", was with the battle with Fenris. Fenris mind-controlled Lucifer which resulted in Lucifer killing Michael. But before Michael died and before the Demiurgic energy would pour out from him, he transferred all of his Demiurgic Energy to his daughter Elaine Belloc.
Originally posted by leonheartmm Anything that exists would had to have been created directly or indirectly by the Presence.that is true, other than the greatbeast every thing is directly or indirectly created by the presence, but GOD that created micheal and lucifer is only a small aspect of the presence, and micheal is not more powerful as the presence but hedefeats the presence's schemes by his intelligence more than his powers{he even tricked and destroyed the plans of the presence and god even as a human} and it is possible that his level of dastardly wit is greated than the intelligence of the presence.
The only time Lucifer outsmarted The Presence was when his Multiverse was created. I have never seen Lucifer outwit the Presence save for that one. Unless you have proof of it.
Originally posted by kevdude
i dont ever remember u explaining how TGEB was here before The Presence, i am sure if you explained it I would have remembered it. could u explain it?
I didnt really explained it thoroughly. I just basically flat-out said what TGEB is. This was in a thread where we were discussing about TGEB and First of the Fallen being one.
TGEB is just a being who already existed even before The Presence himself did. He existed and slept in the nothingness of the Void for billions and billions of years. And then the Presence came.
The Presence embodied Light while TGEB embodied Darkness(this Darkness bit was said in Swamp Thing v2 #50). Thats why we can relate them to the saying "before there was light, there was total darkness". Before The Presence(light) came, TGEB(darkness) already existed in the blackness of the void.
The Spectre vol. 3 explains it better, thats why I referred you to that.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i dont have to explain that, its common knowledge to any1 who reads hellblazer, its stated in hellblazer that the great beast was here before the presence and was actually the true first fallen, banished to non existance, now from HERE ONwards, there are a lot of different things one might believe about TGEB like he was a part of the presence ripped off, or he is merly a different entity
Not really leon. TGEB is not FOTF. As you and I said, TGEB existed before The Presence. Well, FOTF didnt exist before The Presence. Read Hellblazer, it was said there that FOTF was created by The Presence and was made to be his companion. But like Lucifer, he wasnt entirely in agreement of The Presence's plan so he was cast down to hell.
And besides FOTF gets tricked too much by John Constantine to actually be TGEB.
And once again people. Lucifer IS Satan, the TRUE Satan. The Spectre refers to him as "The Devil", The Endless refers to him as "The Devil", Jill Presto and the rest of the characters in Lucifer refers to him as "The Devil", even Michael refers to him as "The Devil".
Just because Lucifer is not evil and FOTF and TGEB are, doesnt mean FOTF and TGEB are Satan. You also have to look at Satan's origin's and how he became Satan in the first place. And it just so happens that Satan's origin's and Lucifer's origins are very similar. Just like Lucifer, Satan was once an angel(the greatest of them all, btw), who was cast down to hell because he rebelled against God. And just like Lucifer, he was the undisputed ruler of Hell for billions of years.
TGEB is not Satan. How can he be Satan when he doesnt even know who he is and why he does exists? Satan should know that answers.
FOTF is not Satan either. How can he be Satan when he wasnt able to do anything to Lucifer when Lucifer arrived in hell and ruled it for billions of years.
And Cosmic Cube, TGEB existing before The Presence doesnt equate to him stronger than The Presence. It was stated that they are opposites and equals. And no. The Presence wasnt created by someone. He just existed like TGEB.