cube asketh: <<Who said that TOAA was above the Presence, or vice versa?>>
sentry respondeth: <<Mider said it. In his mind the TOAA is below the presence. That's fine. To each their own.>>
to which leo replies: wtf??! mider said it then asked WHO said it??! hmmmm . . .
to be fair, i don't recall the argument of toaa v presence coming up either. mider, for the sake of this discussion, we were simply agreeing to assume they were basically the same for the sake of equivalent hierarchies.
Originally posted by leonidas
cube asketh: <<Who said that TOAA was above the Presence, or vice versa?>>sentry respondeth: <<Mider said it. In his mind the TOAA is below the presence. That's fine. To each their own.>>
to which leo replies: wtf??! mider said it then asked WHO said it??! hmmmm . . .
to be fair, i don't recall the argument of toaa v presence coming up either. mider, for the sake of this discussion, we were simply agreeing to assume they were basically the same for the sake of equivalent hierarchies.
Mider does think Presence > TOAA.
Yup and ive given you all reasons why. TOAA expells all Its powers to recreate the multiverse like He did when Thanos was TOAA in Thanos: The End but The Presance just creates two angels very powerful ones at that and says recreate the multiverse and thats it The Presance sits back watching while TOAA kills it self recreating the Multiverse.
Originally posted by Mider
Yup and ive given you all reasons why. TOAA expells all Its powers to recreate the multiverse like He did when Thanos was TOAA in Thanos: The End but The Presance just creates two angels very powerful ones at that and says recreate the multiverse and thats it The Presance sits back watching while TOAA kills it self recreating the Multiverse.
How do you know that TOAA expels all of his power in The End? Thanos was not TOAA in The End. The wielder of the Heart of the Universe is not TOAA, nor is it equal to TOAA. You're basing that off of opinion and nothing more. TOAA has never been seen, and it has never been challenged. The Presence has.
Originally posted by leonidas
cube asketh: <<Who said that TOAA was above the Presence, or vice versa?>>sentry respondeth: <<Mider said it. In his mind the TOAA is below the presence. That's fine. To each their own.>>
to which leo replies: wtf??! mider said it then asked WHO said it??! hmmmm . . .
to be fair, i don't recall the argument of toaa v presence coming up either. mider, for the sake of this discussion, we were simply agreeing to assume they were basically the same for the sake of equivalent hierarchies.
Originally posted by Mider
All that proves is that TOAA is shit to The Presance if He expells all His power just by recreating the multiverse then yeah He is not as powerful as the Presance since it takes just two of His Archangels to create a multiverse with out expelling all of there power hell how do you know that if one did manage to create the multiverse He wouldnt expell all of His powers and thus be equal in power to marvels TOAA.
Originally posted by Mider
if you ask me The Presance could defeat TOAA thats pretty stupid to assume no one can defeat TOAA so now what DC has to make sure its Characters are not as powerful as TOAA thats not even logical.
Mider says it in his own words. According to him, TOAA ain't sh!t to Presence. Imo, their are equal. One ruler for each universe.
Presence rules DC...
TOAA rules Marvel...
Presence = TOAA
TOAA > Lucifer
Lucifer steps into the Marvel Universe, his powers could be altered for better or worse. These are just theories.
But this theory: Presence = TOAA Is logical.
Originally posted by Mider
Cosmic Cube your just making assumptions on THOTU you dont even know if it was or wasnt as powerful as TOAA ive already explaind to you why TOAA would give Thanos His powers and place and yup i dont think that TOAA can defeate The Presance.
LT, other cosmic entities has said the highest power is GOD ( TOAA)
in the end HOTU is not god (what assumptions are you talking about?)
HOTU is energy (not a living think)
TOAA has never been shown, or have been seen talking.
DC presence talks to his angle and takes actions
Presence > TAOO? LMAO
Originally posted by Sentry
Irrelevant? He could probably make Warlock an offer... But why would he take it. He has no lust for power, no greed, etc... Good and Evil expelled from his soul, what could he possibly want? He lives outside the Multi-Verse, and does not intervene until balanced is disturbed. Warlock and Lucifer will talk, and offers will be made, by both parties. Warlock could very well accept offers from Lucifer to step aside, or hand over the power of THOTU, etc... but odds of that are slim to none. Lucifer's a genius and is probably the most intelligent being in the universe, but bribing someone with no emotions, no desire for anything but balance is ludicrous... In theory. My theory only, to each their own. Very interesting theory Synchro. Good points. Good to hear opinions from both sides.
Well, to each his own, I guess. I was just trying to have you people consider it. If you still dont believe it, then fine. All Im trying to say is its still possible. Anyway, I would have love to continue our discussion Sentry, but I guess thats enough for the moment. Anytime you wanna go at it again, just tell me. 😄
Originally posted by leonheartmm
and actully he CAN CREAT A WHOLE MULTIVERSE WITHOUT MICHEALS HELP, just by killing himself, which will cause the demiurgic explosion and destroy or create another multiverse, and lucifer has goten the best of GOD many times, by usin his intelligence.
Lucifer cannot, in any way, create a multiverse on his own. Lucifer doesnt have the Demiurgic Energy either. Only Michael was bestowed of it. The Demiurgic Energy just creates the MATTER which will be used to create the multiverse. After that, its Lucifer's turn by shaping that matter into suns, stars, planets, etc. Again, neither can create a multiverse without the other. It was explained MANY times in Lucifer. Read Lucifer #13 and #26
And no, Lucifer didnt get the best of The Presence many times. He got the best of him just ONCE by hiding his intentions of creating a multiverse of his own, thats it.
kgkg:
1. Your confusing Lucifer’s Multiverse to Presence’s Multiverse. The one that Lucifer needs permission to get out of is THE PRESENCE’s Multiverse, not his own Multiverse. He needed the letter of passage to allow him to leave creation(Presence Multiverse) and create a Multiverse of his own.
2. Again, Lucifer cannot bring the dead back to life if he didn’t kill it. What happened to Elaine only supports what I said. Elaine offered her life to Lucifer so that Lucifer would have additional energy in him. So Lucifer killed her and promised that she will be back. After disposing of the Basanos and Susano-O(in his mortal form btw) he went to the Mansion of Silence and found Elaine's soul there, but Elaine refused to be resurrected and chose instead to be the Guardian Angel of Lucifer's Cosmos.
Also, read Lucifer #5 when Lucifer offered Musubi(the assassin of the Japanese Gods) life after death if she would allow Lucifer to kill her.
Also, Lucifer has power over the Mansion of Silence. He actually destroyed it and the countless souls it contain when he retrieved Elaine's soul.
3. Ok.
Originally posted by kgkg
My point is HOTU was all of gods creation which is > God's one creation
I know. But the problem here is, if you put anyone w/HOTU on the same position as Lucifer, the result will be the same: They will be mind controlled by Fenris. See, HOTU may be all of TOAA's creation, Fenris might not be able to mind control it, but the problem is it cant act on his own. It needs someone to use its power. And ofcourse that someone is also God's creation, right? That is why Fenris mind controling Lucifer is irrelevent because anyone will be mind controlled by Fenris if you also put them on Lucifer's position, and that includes anyone w/HOTU.
And for those who are saying that Presence appointed Lucifer his successor, Give me proof about that. Again, The Presence left without ANYONE knowing, including Michael and Lucifer. How can he appoint them if thats the case.
Also, TOAA = The Presence
Originally posted by Synchro
Well, to each his own, I guess. I was just trying to have you people consider it. If you still dont believe it, then fine. All Im trying to say is its still possible. Anyway, I would have love to continue our discussion Sentry, but I guess thats enough for the moment. Anytime you wanna go at it again, just tell me. 😄Also, TOAA = The Presence
That's what I'm saying. I like keeping an open mind. Anytime you want to debate, I'm all for it. Sure I'll let you know when your wrong. LOL! Just kidding. 😄 But seriously your a good debater.
Also, TOAA = Presence I agree with you.
Originally posted by Synchro
Well, to each his own, I guess. I was just trying to have you people consider it. If you still dont believe it, then fine. All Im trying to say is its still possible. Anyway, I would have love to continue our discussion Sentry, but I guess thats enough for the moment. Anytime you wanna go at it again, just tell me. 😄Lucifer cannot, in any way, create a multiverse on his own. Lucifer doesnt have the Demiurgic Energy either. Only Michael was bestowed of it. The Demiurgic Energy just creates the MATTER which will be used to create the multiverse. After that, its Lucifer's turn by shaping that matter into suns, stars, planets, etc. Again, neither can create a multiverse without the other. It was explained MANY times in Lucifer. Read Lucifer #13 and #26
And no, Lucifer didnt get the best of The Presence many times. He got the best of him just ONCE by hiding his intentions of creating a multiverse of his own, thats it.
kgkg:
1. Your confusing Lucifer’s Multiverse to Presence’s Multiverse. The one that Lucifer needs permission to get out of is THE PRESENCE’s Multiverse, not his own Multiverse. He needed the letter of passage to allow him to leave creation(Presence Multiverse) and create a Multiverse of his own.
2. Again, Lucifer cannot bring the dead back to life if he didn’t kill it. What happened to Elaine only supports what I said. Elaine offered her life to Lucifer so that Lucifer would have additional energy in him. So Lucifer killed her and promised that she will be back. After disposing of the Basanos and Susano-O(in his mortal form btw) he went to the Mansion of Silence and found Elaine's soul there, but Elaine refused to be resurrected and chose instead to be the Guardian Angel of Lucifer's Cosmos.
Also, read Lucifer #5 when Lucifer offered Musubi(the assassin of the Japanese Gods) life after death if she would allow Lucifer to kill her.
Also, Lucifer has power over the Mansion of Silence. He actually destroyed it and the countless souls it contain when he retrieved Elaine's soul.
3. Ok.
I know. But the problem here is, if you put anyone w/HOTU on the same position as Lucifer, the result will be the same: They will be mind controlled by Fenris. See, HOTU may be all of TOAA's creation, Fenris might not be able to mind control it, but the problem is it cant act on his own. It needs someone to use its power. And ofcourse that someone is also God's creation, right? That is why Fenris mind controling Lucifer is irrelevent because anyone will be mind controlled by Fenris if you also put them on Lucifer's position, and that includes anyone w/HOTU.
And for those who are saying that Presence appointed Lucifer his successor, Give me proof about that. Again, The Presence left without ANYONE knowing, including Michael and Lucifer. How can he appoint them if thats the case.
Also, TOAA = The Presence
you do read Lucifer comics, some people are just saying bullshit.
I just wrote few limitations of Lucifer and things that shows he can be effected that’s all I was trying to prove to Leo.
As for why Elaine Belloc couldn’t be resurrect wasn’t it because it was Mansions of Silence, and that’s not where soul normal goes (that what I understood from reading it)
As for he can destroying (Mansions) that’s true but he couldn’t enter without destroying it.
Again has nothing to do it debate ( I have already shown he can be effected and has limits) – to leo
Anyways back to it
Fenris is god's creation, if Fenris was in marvel wouldn't that make Fenris part of HOTU?
Marvel does have Fenris (or similar being) – Fenris is destruction like Chaos , Entropy
Marvel counter parts where him ( Fenris was more powerful of course but same thing)
As for TOAA = Presence of course
i believe i heard someone say that it happened in Lucifer #40, Michael and Lucifer peered into Gods thoughts who would be his successor, he sorta told Michael he was not up to the job, making Michael pissed and he went straight to The Silver City to have it out with The Presence, when he got there and went in the Thrown Room he found it was empty, Michael stayed in theThrown Room for awhile thinking everything over, and when he left the Thrown Room there was Angels outside wondering why he wasnt casted out of Heaven, Michael then told them "The Primum Mobile is empty. God has departed this place. Forever."
Originally posted by Sentry
That's what I'm saying. I like keeping an open mind. Anytime you want to debate, I'm all for it. Sure I'll let you know when your wrong. LOL! Just kidding. 😄 But seriously your a good debater.
Tnx. Same to you.
Originally posted by kgkg As for why Elaine Belloc couldn’t be resurrect wasn’t it because it was Mansions of Silence, and that’s not where soul normal goes (that what I understood from reading it)As for he can destroying (Mansions) that’s true but he couldn’t enter without destroying it.
Again has nothing to do it debate ( I have already shown he can be effected and has limits) – to leo
Anyways back to it
Fenris is god's creation, if Fenris was in marvel wouldn't that make Fenris part of HOTU?
Marvel does have Fenris (or similar being) – Fenris is destruction like Chaos , Entropy
Marvel counter parts where him ( Fenris was more powerful of course but same thing)
Yes your right, normal souls dont go the Mansions of Silence. The souls that go there are the Angels, and other "special" souls. But then again, Lucifer is.......Lucifer. As what he has shown in the comic he can resurrect anyone he kills wherever that soul goes.
As far as destroying the Mansions of Silence goes, he destroyed it AFTER he got Elaines soul(otherwise, Elaine's soul wouldve been destroyed too if Lucifer destroyed it before entering).
About Fenris and HOTU. Well, as I said, Fenris cant mind control HOTU. But the problem is the one using it. Because, most likely, the one using it is a being and also TOAA's creation. And that is where Fenris can take advantage from: by mind controlling the one using HOTU, making HOTU useless in the process(remember, this is on the condition that the one w/HOTU is heavily damaged and down to 20% of his power before their encounter with the wolf).
Originally posted by kevdude i believe i heard someone say that it happened in Lucifer #40, Michael and Lucifer peered into Gods thoughts who would be his successor, he sorta told Michael he was not up to the job, making Michael pissed and he went straight to The Silver City to have it out with The Presence, when he got there and went in the Thrown Room he found it was empty, Michael stayed in theThrown Room for awhile thinking everything over, and when he left the Thrown Room there was Angels outside wondering why he wasnt casted out of Heaven, Michael then told them "The Primum Mobile is empty. God has departed this place. Forever."
Hmm...... I have to check it out.
Prove a point what point is that? I would make threads against LT cause apprently NO ONE IN COMICS can beat Him so yeah that made sense to prove that He could be defeated or same with Silver Surfer and Superman. What point did you want to make? I dont belive that Lucifer is invincible He can be defeated by The Presance, but TOAA i just dont belive He is strong enough to ddefeat The Presance and i dont think He is strong enough to destroy Lucifer Morningstar.
Originally posted by Mider
Prove a point what point is that? I would make threads against LT cause apprently NO ONE IN COMICS can beat Him so yeah that made sense to prove that He could be defeated or same with Silver Surfer and Superman. What point did you want to make? I dont belive that Lucifer is invincible He can be defeated by The Presance, but TOAA i just dont belive He is strong enough to ddefeat The Presance and i dont think He is strong enough to destroy Lucifer Morningstar.
These aren't even really fights. They are power rankings. Everyone but you believes that TOAA and The Presence are equal.
umm Mider TOAA created the entire Marvel Mutliverse on his own, Lucifer cant create a Multiverse without Michael, the only 1 that knows who TOAA is, is the Living Tribunal, not even the Beyonder knows who TOAA is. TOAA would win against Lucifer, he is GOD in Marvel, and nobody ever beats God. but "IF" TOAA is not The Presence then it must be a part of Yahweh that is split from him that created the Marvel Multiverse, and even then TOAA still wins