Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
oh Fishy, I noticed you have said that Revan read a million books, and knew stuff from each of them, instead of memorizing one book, what you seem to forget is that Yoda read a million books as well, probably many a time (over 900 years, I could see you re-reading a few things)Also Frobo, I saw that you said Yoda couldn't have known about the sith, actually I have a theory on that (not proven but very likely, at least as likely as your point of Revan creating his own style of combat)
The theory is this: Yoda met Darth Bane at some point, my reasons for thinking this include:
-we know that jedi/sith can live to over 100 years old (Yoda himself being a prime example, along with others in history), this means that if Bane was 30 at the time of Ruusan, 100 years later when Yoda comes around, he is 130, possible, when Yoda becomes a jedi knight, say 20 years later, he is 150, very old, but still around. Then Yoda might have faced him and killed, learning about the sith rule of two from his holocron.
-Also, Yoda says in Dark Rondevouz, that he faced great trials and temptations in his youth, what could be a greater trial and temptation than a dark lord trying to draw you to the dark side or kill you?
-It explains how Yoda knows about force lightningAlso, keep in mind that the sith after Ruusan got weaker, so Yoda could have fought the most powerful sith in 1000 years, and likely killed him and took his holocron, which he would have then learned from.
And Frobo, you say that Yoda learned his knowledge of force lightning from the archives, unlikely, but possbile, but if they have recorded force lightning, why didn't they record drain life or other things. Actually this is beside the point since Yoda did study from sith holocrons, it says in several books, and I think on starwars.com that Dooku was familier with the sith HOLOCRONS in the jedi temple, so Yoda had at least two sith holocrons to work from, probably more. This also supports my idea of him once meeting Darth Bane, his holocron could be one of them. Also, since Bane was before Ruusan, he would have had knowledge from the sith before him and their holocrons, so it is likely that Bane's holcron held knowledge on at least the basics of those other force techniques, as well as history on Revan and other sith lords
Your Bane speculation is interesting but is mere speculation and I think they would've included that somewhere if it happened. First, after all those years, Bane's apprentice would eventually kill him, long before he's 130. Second, Bane would already be about 126 when Yoda was BORN.
Bane's holocron would NOT have knowledge of Lord Revan. About everything he learned from was destroyed. The Jedi academy, the Korriban tombs, Malachor V. Where would someone get knowledge of Revan etc.? Besides, look at all that knowledge that was lost there, Jedi and Sith would doubtless have less knowledge and would most likely get weaker.
Now, let's compare:
Will power: Lord Revan
Knowledge: Lord Revan
Combat experience: Lord Revan
Techniques: most likely Revan
Force potential: Lord Revan but not by much
Force powers: Tie, Yoda's good but Revan's more powerful than Kreia.
Dueling skill; Most likely Lord Revan. With Tulak's holocron, hundreds of others, his own style, Supreme battle pre-cog, and killing everyone who ever challenged him, he's got this.
Here's putting it simply:
-Kreia kills three Jedi council members at the same time with one use of the Force.
-Revan is more powerful than Kreia.
-Sidious killed three Jed council members with a LIGHTSABER.
-Sidious gave Yoda a really good fight.
-Also most people think Revan would beat Sidious easily.
How do we know for sure Darth Revan has his own lightsaber style? It is possible, but we are saying this in reference with the cut scene when he gets shot down. Now like Nai Fohl has said it just could be some flashy form IV or something...also, most of the lightsaber attacks used in KOTOR (Darth Revan used the same attacks) were explained in KOTOR II by the Jedi Masters we had to hunt down. During the gaming experience we never witnessed anybody raving of how good his made up lightsaber form is. Possibly because it does not exist...it could, however very unlikely.
Also about how he attained all that knowledge from those planets...how long does it take you to read a novel? It takes up a good amount of time. If Darth Revan could read all this stuff he discover on these worlds even quickly it would take him possibly 45 seconds to read a page. That being said he could not have attained everything that was on that planet...he just skimmed the surface of all knowledge.
Yoda lives up to be 900 hundred years old and has a lot more time to read up on all this knowledge, unlike Darth Revan who has had only 30-50 years (however long he lived). In the long run it comes down to this...
Lightsaber skill=Yoda (Because of the time he had to practice and study)
Knowledge=Yoda (Because of being very wise and had more time to look upon these things)
Force Power=Yoda (Because of the time he had to learn and study. He knows more about the Force than Darth Revan...possibly not by much, but enough)
This fight would not be easy for either Yoda or Darth Revan, but at the end Yoda would be the victor. We have to rely on facts, not something that someone has found likely that would happen...and this is what many have done to argue about Darth Revan throughout many forums.
You just keeping getting back at that time thing aren't you? The time doesn't matter it doesn't do shit. It didn't help him against Sidious or Dooku for that matter who both considered themselves to be superior to Yoda. (Dooku ran away becuase of the Death Star according to him)
So what has Yoda his nine hundred years done? Obviously not enough. If you want to argue for Yoda argue his great control of the force and how he can block attacks and his speed. Thats all Yoda has for him. Yoda does not know more then Revan and I doubt that he is wiser.
The only thing that he has is his speed but even with others still managed to hit his lightsaber and make him block attacks, and his great control of the force. Well Revan had that too...
Darth Sidious won, because of luck...even you Fishy have argued that Yoda won that duel. And about the Dooku thing...He had to run, because he was going to become chopped up meat. You keep arguing of what is likely Darth Revan has done...you don't have any proof to prove those things.
About how he attained all that knowledge from those planets...how long does it take you to read a novel? It takes up a good amount of time. If Darth Revan could read all this stuff he discover on these worlds...even quickly it would take him possibly 45 seconds to read a page. That being said he could not have attained everything that was on that planet...he just skimmed the surface of all knowledge.
Darth Revan just because he killed a lot of people doesn't mean anything...You don't know how he fought...you have to go by a Video game that provides only a little snipit of how he fights. Everyone on that game fights the same...Good job worshipping a video game and making things up in your fantasies.
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Jedi Masters say shit about what he has learned and they describe it as everything. Kreia does it. Learned everything, was always studying or testing himself, could never learn enough, knew almost everything there was to know, best student ever.
A few things people said about him.
So no its not a fantasy. And Yeah Sidious won because he took the better place to fight. But still if Yoda was that much more powerful then Sidious he would have owned his ass no matter where Sidious was. Yoda still could not defeat Sidious, in a fair fight he could but not in a fight were Sidious had an advantage. And Dooku ran because of the Death Star plans. He says so himself read Labyrinth of Evil.
So what have we seen Yoda do then? He didn't manage to defeat Dooku or Sidious, he would have won from both in a fair fight but he didn't. We have seen Yoda make the wrong decisions all we have seen him do that is great is killing a bunch of clonetroopers and knocking out two guards without trouble, reflecting lightning and force pushing Sidious far away. Now i'm not impressed by anything but the reflection and we can pretty much be sure that Yoda has done more. But have we seen it? No. So by your logic if you can't draw logical conclusions Revan has done so much more that its impossible if he's weaker.
Like I have said...Revan's moves are not the best of the best on that game, which is the only thing you have to represent Darth Revan with. Along with quotes by people on that game, which is their own opinion. Everyone on that games fights the same. I am not denying Revan is powerful, he is just not superior to Yoda.
If Dooku knew he could beat Yoda...Why worry about the Death Star plans? Yoda was going to die...he could have stayed and fought...giving the Jedi a hurtful blow right there. He ran, because he can't win. Sidious sought the high ground, because he can't win without it.
Frobo, you misunderstood me, I never said that Yoda fought in the battle of Ruusan, I said that he may have met Bane, after the battle, the battle took place 1000 years ago, Yoda was born 900 years ago, since we know that jedi/sith can live to be over 100, it is very possible that they met, fought, and Yoda won. This would actually explain quite a bit in the story, like:
-Also, Yoda says in Dark Rondevouz, that he faced great trials and temptations in his youth, what could be a greater trial and temptation than a dark lord trying to draw you to the dark side or kill you?
-It explains how Yoda knows about force lightning
This would also explain how in TPM, when Mace said, the sith have been dead for a millinium, why Yoda was like *hmm* he could have been remembering his battle with Bane, and thought he killed the last one, but maybe thinking now that he didn't.
About the holocrons, you can doubt that all you want, but in one book before the Clone Wars (Anakin is around 12 or 14 I think), him and Obi-Wan found a sith holocron and took it back to the temple to be with the other holocrons (plural) to be studied, so actually Yoda had at least 3 sith holocrons to study from. And it does clearly state in at least one book (I forget which one) that Dooku was familier with the sith teachings in the holocrons inside the jedi temple, it actually even says it on starwars.com, here is the line "he had apparently experimented with forbidden lore in the past. Rumors abound that Dooku was familiar with Sith teachings stored within a dark Holocron kept in the Jedi Archives" also another quote " Nod was also headstrong and mischievous, and he tried to blame Dooku for the theft of a Sith Holocron" so there were clearly sith teachings in the temple, and Yoda would have studied them.
About your line that Revan showed him style in the cut scene in KotOR, actaully, all he does is twirl his lightsaber to either side of him, before bringing it up beside his face, pointing at his opponents, that does not show he created a new style, it shows he has flexibility. Like I said above, there is no proof, it is likely, but not fact, and here, we need to stick to facts, like I said above, he could have been using form VI, flashy, patient, wait for your opponents, sound familier anyone? I know we never saw any form VI users brandish there blade like that, but it could have been the ritual style of combat that Dooku showed in AotC when he faced Yoda, the way he saluted Yoda was different than anything we have seen him do since, Revan's flourish could have been the ritualized salute for form VI, very unlikely, but we don't knaw that he created his own style, that is what I was trying to prove.
To Fishy, ok for your book example, I still say that Yoda had good resources as well, but even if he didn't, he would still know more, now I know what you are thinking, WTF, but here is my logic, Revan read a million books once, Yoda read 500 000 books many a time, so those 500 000 books would mean that he learned more than Revan, even if Revan had a greater library (which I doubt anyway)
I'm not saying that Yoda knows less about one subject he obviously knows more about it. He does know less about everything together however. Would that mean a lot in this battle? Probably not, they both have awesome force control and great powers, so I really don't think that helps.
Yoda could have met or killed Bane that much is true, but lets stick to the facts like you said and assume he didn't. Its far more likely that he learned of the Sith by finding information from holocrons and shit like that. He would not know as much about the Dark Side as Revan just like Revan who knew a lot about the Light Side would not know as much about is as Yoda.
About the form, like you said its likely but there is no real proof. Assumptions have been used a lot by two sides here. But even if it wasn't we can at the very least assume Revan perfected his style. I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to master one style even if he only lived 25 to 30 years. He's still a fast learner. But I find it more likely that he is working on his own style. Which btw for all the people supporting Revan is not perfect. A style is never perfect. Revan may have had a lot of knowledge to base his style one, I'm pretty sure he would work on it until the very last day of his life.
Either way a Master force user would face a master force user and a master lightsaber user would face another master with a lightsaber. And I think Revan is superior in both those things however slightly it may be. He was more in touch with the force when Yoda on the other hand was more conservative with the force.
Originally posted by sasee tiin
I have to say that your logic isn't on top. If I can beat up an elephant, i would certainly be able to beat up a monkey easy as he11.but I agree with your last statement. People often base their choices on feelings.
yes, like you said, there is no proof for Yoda meeting Bane, or Revan creating his own style, thanks for backing me up on that last point.
And I will agree that Revan likely perfected one style (not 2 not three, certainly not all, but one), and probably had some basic knowledge of the others, say each form has 30 katas, he maybe knew all 30 for one form, and say 4 katas for each of the others. But look at what Yoda knew, he had mastered form IV, so he had at least mastered one form as well. But he also tought the younglings form I, so I'm sure he knows the basics of that, probably up to kata 10. For form II, he trained Dooku, so would surely have to know a lot about that, say also up to kata, 10-12 (I think higher, but I will try and make it so you Revan supporters can't just shoot this down). In form III, well I can't remember if he ever trained a person that used this form, but my guess is that over 900 years, yes he did, however, since I will try and stick to facts, I will say he only knows up to kata 4 on this, if he trained someone that used this form, I will say kata 15. Form IV, he mastered. Form V, well again I can't remember if he ever trained someone that used this form, but he did train Mace, and I think it is likely that he made Mace learn at least the basic of this form since it and Vapaad have some similarities. Yoda probably wanted him to have at least a good grounding, but since we don't know that, I will say he knows up to kata 6. Form VI, again I cannot remember if he ever trained someone that used this form, but since it has a couple similarities with his form, he would know something about it, also, since it was the most popular style in the order, my guess is that he knew up to kata 10. Finally, for form VII, he trained Mace, who perfected this form, and Yoda would have wanted to know what his padawan was doing (no proof for this, but can you imagine Yoda just learning that he padawan created a form that brings him close to the dark side and doing nothing about it, neither can I) so I say that Yoda probably knew up to kata 6 or 8 in this form. So, over all, when you look at this, you see that Yoda probably knew more about the styles than Revan did.
Well assuming that yes...
But the thing is Revan didn't teach people with those style's he fought people with those style's... He would learn them from necessity and would probably sooner learn the weaknesses in them then Yoda did. Maybe not as much about all forms as Yoda but still some of it. And who says that he taught Mace form VII or Dooku II. They could have both changed those forms later on. I don't think they did but if Obi did why not them?
Still I have to agree that Yoda probably knows more about them but I have to add that Revan probably knows more about how they are actually used because he faced more people that used them.
For the battle pre-cog thing, well I will base this off the Exile since he is the only one that we actually know how it works (sure Revan's was greater than the Exiles, but this should show you that the battle pre-cog was not invincible), first off. The Exile's pre-cog was considered to be quite good, yet he could still get hit and be surprised (Kriea on Dantooine), also on Malachor, he had trouble with her floating lightsabers, so the battle pre-cog does not make you invincble that a couple of you seem to think.
About Dooku running because of the Death Star, isn't it likely that he was just saying that to convince himself that the dark was stronger than the light? Either way, in Dark Rondevous, him and Yoda met again, and Yoda forced him to flee again, it also says in the book that Yoda could have "jumped down on him like a bolt of green lightning, slaying him". Also, the battle took place on Vjun, a planet strong in the dark side where the dark side is amplified and weakens the light, yet Yoda could still beat him badly.
I didn't know that last thing and yes the thing about Dooku is likely, however thats not what he said. No matter really I still believe myself that Dooku ran because he would lose otherwise but that does not make Yoda great it makes him a fool for saving Obi and Anakin if he could have stopped Dooku.... Sacrifises have to be made for the greater good sometimes Yoda should have realised that. But thats for another thread really.
About battle pre cog... That of Revan was greater then that of the greatest Echani and that was far greater then that of anybody else there. It should have been able to predict entire wars in advance. Of course it does not make you invincible we have all seen that. Echani still die sometimes even by weaker opponents. Things can still go wrong and things still change sometimes. It just gives Revan a great edge, like he can read everything his opponent does. Sometimes Yoda can do someting unexpected and Revan will have a hard time but for most of the fight Revan will have an advantage because he can see what Yoda is doing or is going to do.
ok, sure Revan faced those that used the forms, but that would just cause him to learn the weaknesses in the forms, not how to use them (or if it did, not very well), and I think that he probably didn't face off against many form IV users, during that time of constant war, the jedi probably used form II and form III the most, one for when you meet the sith, the other for when you meet the troopers.
About Yoda teaching form II and form VII, well he never tought form VII, but he did teach Mace, and didn't Mace invent the form in his teens? That would be when he was under instruction from Yoda, and Yoda would not let his padawan create a form that borders on the dark side and not learn at least the basics himself. For form II, it is possible that Dooku switched, but it took him 50 years to master it, I'm not sure how old he was in the movies, but he had to have at least started learning it under Yoda. Plus, I think it said somewhere that he had been a form II user all his life.
yes it would, but like I said above, I'm not sure how many Ataru users Revan would have met, I wouldn't think it would be a popular style back then, I would more think Makashi, Soresu, and maybe Shien Do, would be popular, Soresu for defense, Makashi for when you meet your neighborhood sith lord, and Shien Do for a balance between the two, both attack and defense. I just can't imagine Ataru being that popular during Revan's time, sure he would know some stuff about it, but I don't know how much he would have faced it