It means that you have soul but still yourself not sure to believe in God or not coz you can't belive in what God gives you but not believe in God, it makes no sense. Soul IS what you get from God so if you don't believe in him how the hell are you supposed to believe that you have one? Again try to explain what soul is then?
Soul is what you get from God? That's all it is?
Ahh...The idea of a SOUL existed before the idea of GOD.....in Greek mythology, in Egyptian mythology, the soul of a being transends to another life.
You CAN beleive in a soul without beleiving in God. You claim that the only way to beleive in one is to beleive in the other, and that my freind shows your lack of imagination and understanding.
I am open to the possibility that God may exist, but i do not fully beleive it.
I FULLY beleive in a Soul, in a spiritual force that every human and animal has.
I'm not going to go into this anymore, if BY NOW this still doesn't make sense to YOU, it never will.
You are atheist since for 5 pages of conversation never mentioned that you believe in God. It seems you do not.
I am NOT an Athiest...do not tell me what I am when you don't know.
I already said I am open to the possibility God may exist, but i do not FULLY beleive it....
And if there is a GOD...i dont beleive its the SAME GOD that you beleive in.
I dont beleive IN YOUR GOD.......does that make me athiest? No
I'll tell you how. You only can explain everything from scientific point of view, you can't think of anythink higher than chemestry and physics. Your imagination IS limited.
Again no i dont. Scientific evidense to me is the most solid form of proof that is all.
I ALSO look at things from a personal, experimental, social, civil, philosophical, artistic, and even sometimes religious point of view.
My imagination is not limitted....it doesnt matter how many times you say this, it is not.
My imagination and my outlook on life are two different things. I only ACCEPT to beleive everything that is already proven by science, and then KEEP THE REST a possibility that it may be true, i just won't know until its proven. I don't DISREGARD what can't be proven.
Science does not reveal EVERY TRUTH today.....there is TRUTH in ALL SOURCES...i beleive this. You beleive there is only truth in your Quran....
whose limitted? Whose closeminded? Who lacks imagination?
Not me buddy.
Unlike your scintific conclusions I still can think of something that is supposed to be beyond human's understanding, so comparing to you there is no limit.
Again your SEVERELY misunderstand. I know there are many many many things that science cannot explain today. But i beleive those things can be scientifically proven in the future.
Science is the only thing i do not question when thier is proof .
Everything else i QUESTION....not DISREGARD...question.
I know of many things that philosophy and personal understanding can explain much more than science can.
And you can ONLY assume that it was chemical reaction or something like that. Again you can't think of anything that is beyond sciance but I can.
Chemical Reaction? Dude...shut up already....u dont even know what you're talking about. Don't attack science when you can't even tell the terms apart.
Can't think of anything taht is beyond science. Ofcourse I can.
I don't beleive Science can explain EVERYTHING TODAY...but it sure as hell makes more sense than religion, and while religion is lacking in MUCH PROOF..science supplies proof.
By us you mean homosexuals? And don't say things like "tell us how to live our lives" it sound like somebody points gun at your head.
Trying to limit our freedoms and turn people against us is almost up there with putting a gun to our heads. 😉
opinion based only on what is easy to undersyand and on what other people would tell you (sciantists) is 100 times worse and more limited.
Again....you just dont get it.
Science DEMANDS you ask questions. Science even questions ITSELF......Quantam Physics proves that much of ordinary physics is actually incorrect. Did you know that? I bet you didnt.
Religion DEMANDS absolute Faith, and calls it a "SIN" to question anything.
Religion creates your imagination for you. Science demands a bit of imagination to figure things out.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenSoul is what you get from God? That's all it is?
Ahh...The idea of a SOUL existed before the idea of GOD.....in Greek mythology, in Egyptian mythology, the soul of a being transends to another life.
You CAN beleive in a soul without beleiving in God. You claim that the only way to beleive in one is to beleive in the other, and that my freind shows your lack of imagination and understanding.[/B]
No, idea of soul never existed before idea of God, you make that up. Bet you didn't knew there were Gods in Greek and Egiptian mythology.
I don't say that " the only way to beleive in one is to beleive in the other" I only say that there is no sense of believing in one without believing in another because these two connected but you don't see this and it shows you lack of understanding.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am open to the possibility that God may exist, but i do not fully beleive it.I FULLY beleive in a Soul, in a spiritual force that every human and animal has.
I'm not going to go into this anymore, if BY NOW this still doesn't make sense to YOU, it never will.
[/B]
It would never make sense to anyone but you. Again you just didn't knew that idea of soul appeared only with idea of God.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am NOT an Athiest...do not tell me what I am when you don't know.I already said I am open to the possibility God may exist, but i do not FULLY beleive it....
And if there is a GOD...i dont beleive its the SAME GOD that you beleive in.
I dont beleive IN YOUR GOD.......does that make me athiest? No
[/B]
I thank God that you don't believe in the same God as I do, because with such attitude you would embarrass any religion because any believer know that there is no wors think in religion than believing partly.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Again no i dont. Scientific evidense to me is the most solid form of proof that is all.I ALSO look at things from a personal, experimental, social, civil, philosophical, artistic, and even sometimes religious point of view.
My imagination is not limitted....it doesnt matter how many times you say this, it is not.
My imagination and my outlook on life are two different things. I only ACCEPT to beleive everything that is already proven by science, and then KEEP THE REST a possibility that it may be true, i just won't know until its proven. I don't DISREGARD what can't be proven.[/B]
You said that youself, you believe only in what is already proved by science and all other possibilities that are based on your "artistic" point of view is also based on anything that could only be proven by sciense.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Science does not reveal EVERY TRUTH today.....there is TRUTH in ALL SOURCES...i beleive this. You beleive there is only truth in your Quran....
[/B]
I've been telling you what I belieb\ve in for 5 pages and you still don't get it... and Quaran is not the only source of information for me. Do you actually read my posts?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
whose limitted? Whose closeminded? Who lacks imagination?Not me buddy.[/B]
You, obviously.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenAgain your SEVERELY misunderstand. I know there are many many many things that science cannot explain today. But i beleive those things can be scientifically proven in the future.
Science is the only thing i do not question when thier is proof .
Everything else i QUESTION....not DISREGARD...question.
I know of many things that philosophy and personal understanding can explain much more than science can.[/B]
You believe that philosophy and personal understanding can explain much more than science but you will believe that only untill sience will give you more conincing explanation, noe THAT is lack of imagination.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenChemical Reaction? Dude...shut up already....u dont even know what you're talking about. Don't attack science when you can't even tell the terms apart. [/B]
And you call me intollerant when I talk about gays, keep in ming I never sayd anythink like "shut up" or "you don't understand anything", unlike you...
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Can't think of anything taht is beyond science. Ofcourse I can.I don't beleive Science can explain EVERYTHING TODAY...but it sure as hell makes more sense than religion, and while religion is lacking in MUCH PROOF..science supplies proof.
[/B]
You recently proved that you can't. And you never backed up your claims that religion lacks imagination, you only said that one who believe has lack imagination what is not true.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Trying to limit our freedoms and turn people against us is almost up there with putting a gun to our heads. 😉[/B]
Laws limit your freedom, not Bible.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenAgain....you just dont get it.
Science DEMANDS you ask questions. Science even questions ITSELF......Quantam Physics proves that much of ordinary physics is actually incorrect. Did you know that? I bet you didnt.
Religion DEMANDS absolute Faith, and calls it a "SIN" to question anything.
Religion creates your imagination for you. Science demands a bit of imagination to figure things out. [/B]
You just proved again that you don't know much about religions. Questioning is not a sin, I can ask how God did what he did and I wont go to hell for that. The thing is that I may not be able to find an answer. Sciense is great but in some cases it really lacks your imagination because it can't answer everything and would never be able to answer everything but will keep demending for you to believe that it will someday so you will not be able to think of something that may not be explained by it.
Re: How is islam any worse than us
Originally posted by black_goku#1
ok i am a christian, or was until my church said that muslims were going to burn in hell for serving the wrong lord and not believing in jesus. i have to disagree because they do believe in the one all powerful god. they were brought up differnt and view it differnt but still praise god. what makes us christians so special or so right as to believe our way of worship is the only right way?
Your church has no right to tell it's parishners that there's is the 'right' religion. Muslims believe in a God, there God is no better than my God, or your God. Each God is special.
Ahh...SAm Z my buddy...there is a HUGE misunderstanding between us, so let me attempt to clarify:
The idea of a Soul came before the idea of Allah, Jehovah, and Yahweh. It existed in Ancient Egytpian mythology and in Ancient Greek Mythology. Do I know they had "gods"...yes genuis, THAT IS WHY I SAId Greek and Egyptian MYTHOLOGY.....
I do beleive in a Soul, but i am not certain about the existance of God. Do i thnk God does not exist? I have no idea, so far nothing has proven to me that God exists. However nothing has DISPROVED his existance either, but this UNCERTAINTY makes me steer away from beleiving 100%
I do beleive in a Soul however for many reasons. MANY REASONS.....which all make sense to me.
I have the right to beleive in anything I want, the same way you do. I don't need to be religious to beleive in a SOUL...you are thinking in terms of BLACK AND WHITE...like you're either religious or athiest, and that's not the way it has to be either my freind.
If my beleif in a Soul and lack of beleif in a GOD makes no sense to you, than that just shows your lack of understanding. Imagination is the wrong word, we are both artists and have plenty imagination.
To clarify where I am coming from let me LIST my views, my PERSPECITVES from order of LARGEST to LEAST....
1) Personal Perspective
2) Artistic Perspective
3) Humanistic Perspective
4) Agnostic Perspective
5) Scientific Perspective
6) Religious Perspective....
The major of my outlook on EVERYTHING takes place under these 6 ways of looking at something. By LARGEST BIAS is that created by my own personal experiences, and my SMALLEST BIAS is created by my previous religious, yet still existing, beleifs.
Unfortunately our difference is that Religion has the LEAST influence on me, but Religion seems to have the LARGEST influence on you.
IS either way good or bad? No...so lets just end that fight.
Confession: My scientific perspective DOES seem to take dominance in certain situations, NOT ALL, but some. WHY?
Because Science has something that ALL my other perspectives sort of lack: SOLID PROOF....even my own personal experiences and artistic points of view cannot supply me with undeniable proof that science can often supply.
Take this Analogy for example: You may not like it, but please....just bare with me here, consider my example:
I am unsure of the EArth's place in this Universe.Let's say Science tells me that Earth is located at the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy. Religion tells me that EArth is the Center of the Universe (which it had in the past, but for arguments sake lets just say taht were the case today)
I don't know WHO to beleive. Science supplies me with enough UNDENIABLE physical proof to prove to me that Earth is NOT the Center of the Universe. Religion INSISTS strongly that Earth IS INFACT the Center of the Universe, but instead of proving it to me, religion tells me: "JUST HAVE FAITH....do not question my wisdom, questioning is a sin...."
Which do you expect me to beleive? Something which contains MORE PROOF or something that tells me "Stop questioning, and just have FAITH".........?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ahh...SAm Z my buddy...there is a HUGE misunderstanding between us, so let me attempt to clarify:The idea of a Soul came before the idea of Allah, Jehovah, and Yahweh. It existed in Ancient Egytpian mythology and in Ancient Greek Mythology. Do I know they had "gods"...yes genuis, THAT IS WHY I SAId Greek and Egyptian MYTHOLOGY.....
I do beleive in a Soul, but i am not certain about the existance of God. Do i thnk God does not exist? I have no idea, so far nothing has proven to me that God exists. However nothing has DISPROVED his existance either, but this UNCERTAINTY makes me steer away from beleiving 100%
I do beleive in a Soul however for many reasons. MANY REASONS.....which all make sense to me.
I have the right to beleive in anything I want, the same way you do. I don't need to be religious to beleive in a SOUL...you are thinking in terms of BLACK AND WHITE...like you're either religious or athiest, and that's not the way it has to be either my freind.
You are right, this idea came before the idea of Allah but when this idea exsisted there also already existed ideas of other Gods. So it still appeared at the same time, together. But I respect your opinion and yes, you can believe anything you want, I only wanted to make clear MY opinion on this.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If my beleif in a Soul and lack of beleif in a GOD makes no sense to you, than that just shows your lack of understanding. Imagination is the wrong word, we are both artists and have plenty imagination.
[/B]
Here you go again with your "lack of understanding". I only told you what I know from history of religions, no lack of imagination or understanding.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenTo clarify where I am coming from let me LIST my views, my PERSPECITVES from order of LARGEST to LEAST....
1) Personal Perspective
2) Artistic Perspective
3) Humanistic Perspective
4) Agnostic Perspective
5) Scientific Perspective
6) Religious Perspective....
The major of my outlook on EVERYTHING takes place under these 6 ways of looking at something. By LARGEST BIAS is that created by my own personal experiences, and my SMALLEST BIAS is created by my previous religious, yet still existing, beleifs.[/B]
Again, that's your right to believe so and i respect your opinion.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Unfortunately our difference is that Religion has the LEAST influence on me, but Religion seems to have the LARGEST influence on you.IS either way good or bad? No...so lets just end that fight.
[/B]
Religion really has a big influence on me, i never denied that but this influence never goes further than in views on religion questions. My knowledge and imagination is not limited by it. I mean Koran says, there is no other God except Allah, and I believe that, but it doesn't mean I can't think of any other possibility. See where I'm coming from?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Confession: My scientific perspective DOES seem to take dominance in certain situations, NOT ALL, but some. WHY?Because Science has something that ALL my other perspectives sort of lack: SOLID PROOF....even my own personal experiences and artistic points of view cannot supply me with undeniable proof that science can often supply.
Take this Analogy for example: You may not like it, but please....just bare with me here, consider my example:
I am unsure of the EArth's place in this Universe.Let's say Science tells me that Earth is located at the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy. Religion tells me that EArth is the Center of the Universe (which it had in the past, but for arguments sake lets just say taht were the case today)
I don't know WHO to beleive. Science supplies me with enough UNDENIABLE physical proof to prove to me that Earth is NOT the Center of the Universe. Religion INSISTS strongly that Earth IS INFACT the Center of the Universe, but instead of proving it to me, religion tells me: "JUST HAVE FAITH....do not question my wisdom, questioning is a sin...."[/B]
First I never heared that earth IS center of the universe, atleast in Islam but I know this was true for ancient religions. And questioning isn't really a sin, I already mentioned that.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Which do you expect me to beleive? Something which contains MORE PROOF or something that tells me "Stop questioning, and just have FAITH".........? [/B]
No "stop questioning" and just "have faith". Don't believe if you feel like it or belive and ask questions, it's your full right. But you are right this discussion went to far. Let's get back on topic.
You are right, this idea came before the idea of Allah but when this idea exsisted there also already existed ideas of other Gods. So it still appeared at the same time, together. But I respect your opinion and yes, you can believe anything you want, I only wanted to make clear MY opinion on this.
Awesome 🙂
First I never heared that earth IS center of the universe, atleast in Islam but I know this was true for ancient religions. And questioning isn't really a sin, I already mentioned that.
It was not Muslims who taught this. It was Early Christians who taught that Earth was the center of the Universe and any scientist who had proof to discredit that idea was executed at the time.
Questioning or having doubts is considered sinful in many Christian sects. I need to learn more about Islam before I can question Islam itself.
Religion really has a big influence on me, i never denied that but this influence never goes further than in views on religion questions. My knowledge and imagination is not limited by it. I mean Koran says, there is no other God except Allah, and I believe that, but it doesn't mean I can't think of any other possibility. See where I'm coming from?
Yes. Imagination has nothing to do with it though. I'm sure we both have huge imaginations. But imagination is more linked to fantasy than reality.
Do i BELIEVE everything I imagine? Not fully..i only stop denying/questioning things when they are proven to me already. I'm sure you do the same.
I feel our debate resulted in more success than failure. 🙂
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes it does. To me Quality of Life is all that matters, because it is the only thing proven to exist.I'm sorry if you cannot understand the fact that i PRIORITIZE LIFE above all else.
Im not trying to downplay the quality of life. The only reason life has a purpose is because I believe it reaps something for eternity. If it doesn't than what does it really matter? If your just going to die and never live on after this that what do all the good deeds you've done and all the lives anyones saved really matter if its just bought them a few mores years until the never live on again.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I don't know where anyone is going after we die, i dont beleive anyone truly does. Again sorry.I do beleive in the possibility of an afterlife, but your intepretation of it and HOW to get there does not make sense to me. Sorry bro.
I also beleive in the possibility of a GOD....but i dont beleive in YOUR God...sorry
True, no one knows. How doesn't it make sense?
Theres not believing in a possibility of God. You either believe in a god or you dont.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Life ALWAYS MATTERS....again you are basing the WORTH of one's LIFE on what you beleive is the value of thier AFTERLIFE.Every year a person exists on Earth is valuable and precious. Sorry.
Would I rather save a kid from suicide, then allow him to die?
You better beleive it brother.
Agreed. Life does matter. But only because theres something eternal thats going to reap from it. If not then it doesn't matter at all. Because you can go kill yourself right now and never live on or you can die in 50 years and never live on. Your just going to the same place sooner right? And in the end your never going to remember anything anyways so...
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes it does, because the people who are SUFFERING NOW need to be heard, exposed, and taken care of.How do we know that world in end in a thousand years? :/.
I didn't say the world would end in a thousand years. I said we'd all be dead.
Also we can take care of their suffering now but does it reallly matter if they're never going to live on? We've just made their time on earth more comfortable but what does it matter seeing as how they're not going to remember anything once they die anyways.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The more years of life, the better bro.Die? Reincarnation says they will be re born 😛.
So now you believe in reincarnation? I guess thats less stupid than not believing in an afterlife at all.....
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
YES..because they exist today Punker. Their LIVES ALWAYS MATTER regardless of past, present, or future.
They do? Everyones going to die anyways and never live on so what does it really matter who lives and what descisions they make since in the end everyones going to forget all about it when they die?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I've answered this repeated question with repeated answers.
I wasn't asking the question again. Just driving in a point.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Obviously you place more value on an afterlife than one CURRENT LIFE.....
No, I place more value in my life because I believe what I do effects something or someone eternally.
Originally posted by Punker69
Im not trying to downplay the quality of life. The only reason life has a purpose is because I believe it reaps something for eternity. If it doesn't than what does it really matter? If your just going to die and never live on after this that what do all the good deeds you've done and all the lives anyones saved really matter if its just bought them a few mores years until the never live on again.
Again that is your intepretation, and I can not say anything that would convince you otherwise, nor do I feel the need to.
Do I beleive that we become nothing when we die?
No....Atheism is too depressing for me, i thnk I already stated this. I refuse to beleive that all our emotions, struggles, and learning experiences become nothing after we die. That's too sad for me.
But even if this was true, would it lessen LIFE ne more? Not for me....
You may live for the future, but I live for the here and now.
ALL we know to exist is eachother and this world, and we shouldn't have to justify saving this world or helping people with thier struggles by any "afterlife" concepts.
An "Afterlife" should not be the motivator for us to do good things. If we can't do good and try to put an end to suffering out of genuine Love for humanity, and NEED to be motivated by an afterlife to even CARE...than that shows how pathetic we are as a human race.
Originally posted by Punker69
True, no one knows. How doesn't it make sense?Theres not believing in a possibility of God. You either believe in a god or you dont.
Again this is your BLACK and WHITE depiction of things.
There is no beleiving in the possibility of a God? OFCOURSE THERE IS
I believe this universe is too organized not to have a common designer.
I strongly beleive in the idea of a SOUL and a Spiritual Force. However the idea of a SOUL came way before Christianity did.
But I do not beleive in the same version of God you do. From every post you made, the way you represent God makes him sound to conservative, if not a dictator. Sorry bro, no offense here.
I am OPEN to the possibility that God exists, but i am not either or. There is NO PROOF that God exists, but there is also no proof that he doesn't exist either.
Why should i CHOOSE ONE OR THE OTHER? I don't have to, I can beleive in whatever I want.
Originally posted by Punker69
Agreed. Life does matter. But only because theres something eternal thats going to reap from it. If not then it doesn't matter at all. Because you can go kill yourself right now and never live on or you can die in 50 years and never live on. Your just going to the same place sooner right? And in the end your never going to remember anything anyways so...B]
Even if nothing eternal came from it, LIFE would still matter. INFACT it would be EVEN MORE PRECIOUS if that were the case...think about it.
If this LIFE was all that existed, then it is our ONLY CHANCE AND TIME to exist, and we would have to live it up to its FULLEST.
Going to the same place? I don't beleive in your idea of Heaven or Hell, sorry. That doesn't work for me. Is it possible that they may exist? MAYBE....but much logic and most of my personal experiences go against my beleiving that.
Either way it doesnt matter. The Afterlife does not lessen or strengthen the value of THIS LIFE...
Athiests for example...many of them think we may not exist after this life. Does that AUTOMATICALLY mean that they have a lower quality of life? Not necessarily.
Originally posted by Punker69
[B]I didn't say the world would end in a thousand years. I said we'd all be dead.Also we can take care of their suffering now but does it reallly matter if they're never going to live on? We've just made their time on earth more comfortable but what does it matter seeing as how they're not going to remember anything once they die anyways.
Taking care of someone's suffering ALWAYS MATTERS regardless of afterlife or not. EVERY MOMENT of LIFE is precious in my opinion, EVERY MINUTE matters.
Memory? Not a factor in the present. So a JOY is worth nothing of it ends? Nothing lasts forever....does that mean everything is worthless?
Our bodies dont last forever. Does that make our bodies worthless?
Originally posted by Punker69
So now you believe in reincarnation? I guess thats less stupid than not believing in an afterlife at all.....
I beleive everything is possible. that's all.
Less stupid? That is all your opinion and ultamately subject, you are calling Athiests stupid whether you realize it or not.
But that is besides the point. Whatever your opinion of my intelligence is is IRRELEVANT. The VALIDITY of the POINTS we make in this debate is all that matters.
Originally posted by Punker69
They do? Everyones going to die anyways and never live on so what does it really matter who lives and what descisions they make since in the end everyones going to forget all about it when they die?
Everything matters. LIFE matters with or without an afterlife. It's easy for you to say, you live in the United States with a good family and all correct?
Try living a DAY in the life of an impoverous child in Africa, THEN ask me if this LIFE matters or not ? THEN ask me if today's suffering matters since it will all be over soon. 🙄
Originally posted by Punker69
No, I place more value in my life because I believe what I do effects something or someone eternally.
Even if it didn't affect them for all eternity, the very fact that you HELP people is all that matters.
Dude, no offense, but im starting to imagine that I MYSELF, being the virtually agnostic Liberal that I am may be even more of a christian than you.
while rules and the afterlife is all that matters to you, i am LITERALLY spelling out the ESSENCE of Jesus's message.
DO UNTO THOSE AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU, LOVE THY NEIGHBOR, LOVE THE ENEMY, HELP PEOPLE.....that's all he truly said. Everything else, all those BS rules came from St. Paul.
Sorry if you disagree, which you most likely will.