How is islam any worse than us

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
People will find reasons other than Religious Differences to commit violence.

Yes, Lil Bitchiness....in some towns of India, when a woman gets raped...SHE GETS blamed for it, and the man who raped her becomes a Hero. Then the rape victim's family have to disown her, because she "disgraced" thier family by getting raped.

In Howard Beach Queens, an Italian dominated area, racism is SO HIGH...and this a town in New York. FREQUENT crimes are taken against Hispanics and Blacks who happen to stumble upon Howard Beach, and very few people know how STRONG and HIGH the racism is there.

ignorance, hatred, and sheer stupidity exist EVERYWHERE.....HATRED is independent of religion or any other source.

Hatred exists on its OWN for no actual reason, but people will use whatever excuse they have (including religion) to fuel and excuse thier actions.

Of course.
However I don't believe hateret exists on its own. I think we made it ourselves. I don't think its natural, but learnt.

Originally posted by Rapscallion
Umm how does our religious freedom have anything to do with which religion has committed more atrocities. the fact that we can practice any religion we choose is a credit to our government, not christianity. It is a credit to our government which is made up of people who practice all different religions, including Islam. Muslims are no less tolerant than christians. Or were you just stereotyping them based on a relatively small percentage that are.

How are the crusades not relevent? You mention 14 people who are killed for practicing their religion like it is a horrible atrocity (which it is but not nearly as horrible as those instigated by other religions) what about the thousands that died during the crusades. Oh what religion did the Nazis practice by the way?

As for those complaining about being oppressed by christians, I have never, ever heard someone say that. I do not know a single person who believes christians are oppressing them.

Now I don't mean to favor one side (although that is what I ended up doing...sorry) but let's be clear that all religions have exploited there followers to commit horrible acts, and christianity is no exception.

Christians are not expetion as far as exploitation goes. Or violence. Much like all other organised religions.

And crusaides ARE irrelevant, for a simple reason that something that happened hundreds of years ago is used to compare something that is happening today.

Are the fact that they happened excuse people being persecuted? Do they directly affect people being persecuted in largly islamic countries?
I don't believe so, thus its irrelevant to bring it up.

Originally posted by Alliance
I know what religious freedom is. I'm athiest. I have to say "god" every f-ing time i have to pledge my allegience to my country. I have to hear our national leader talk about it every f-ing sentance. I'm not killed for my beliefs, but I know something about intolerance. "uder God" was added to the pledge in 1954 to speak out against athiestic cimmunism. in 1956 the national motto was changed to "In God we trust" Is THAT NOT relgious intolerance???? Its not as bad here as it is in some places. That doesnt mean it should be ignored.

You are talking about a nation that is one of the youngest in the world, and the nation FOUNDED by a particular group of people (of a particular religion), that is not even 500 years old.

Alongside that, you are saying that you are offended that you have to say word ''god'' in your national anthem. Wow. I feel your pain.

Originally posted by Alliance
The west had plenty of relgious states. They may have them again. You're ignoring history. Not catholics were pursecuted. Athiest have been persecuted up until the enlightenment. Just because religous states are more centered in the Middle East now doesn't mean that other areas have been immune.

How is History of Athiests being persecuted up to Enlightment relevant to people beign persecuted today in Middle East, Asia and Africa?

I find it weird that you bring up something that happened in the past, to counter argue what is happening today.
This is why cruisaides are irrelevant as well.

We are talking about TODAY. And what Christians DID to the people who are not christians in their countries in the west, cannot be relevant to what Islamic countries are doing NOW to the people of different faith.

Originally posted by Alliance
Its hardly irrelevnat. ALL religions have done it. Just because its not happening now didn't mean it didn't happen. You brought up other past examples, I brought up recent ones.
You can add the IRA, the US pledge of allegiance, ETA, many other groups/exapmles.

Originally posted by Alliance
The whole Western/Easter idea is archaic. If if you think its not, quit being so devisive. Wester philosphy isn't cr@p. Eastern isn't either. We
We're NOT THAT different and we cirtanly don't become so with a stupid line. And am I the one being ARROGANT? I have incredible sympathy, more than most people for foreign situations. I also know what civil rights are. Trampling civil rights a little bit is still an offense. I don't take freedoms for granted, thats why I fight so hard for them.

Sure, we all fight for freedom, but some of us KNOW how much we have already. And which was my point earlier.
Perhaps people don't seem to value how much freedom they already have for someone living in a country with a super religious president, as opposed to someone living in a Middle Eastern country for example?

Originally posted by Alliance
I have a right to worship the way I choose without other poeple forcing their relgion down my throat. Grow up a bit. I never preached, I never siad my situation was horrible. I'm going to take a personal situation more seriously, I know every in and out of its existance. I'm qualified to speak for it.

''Grow up a bit''? And how exactly am I not ''grown up''. Please do elaborate on that.

The statements from about half down from my post were not directed at you personaly at all. Only
statement which was directly written at you is the first one.
However if you have identified with what I have so much, that you being to deem me as ''immature'' then perhaps my speah was meant for you after all.

My attempt was never, and it never will be to offend. I do wonder if you have indeed identified with something I have said which set you off to get personal like you did.

Originally posted by Alliance
CHristians have not, are not, nor will ever be exceptions to persecutors. Like Rapscallion, I'm not maying you're argument is wrong, I'm just erecting a wall to hold you up before you fall over with one-sidedness.

What exactly is my one sideness?
That people are presecuted in Islamic countries for their belief alone, while they are not in Christian countres?
And that such is taken for granted by a lot of people?

That was my argument all along, and if you can elaborate on how one sided that is, I will gladly listen and re-think my claim.

I feel that you have used personal attacks as well. Please do not tell me what I do and do not know and please do nto tell me what I think and feel. That is being arrogant. You are encouraged to debate my views and opinions, but DONT tell me who I am.

I feel you have overreacted to many of the statements peole have made, that is why I called you on it. And you have not hesitated to use personal attacks back.

Here are some points to consider, hopefully this will shorten posts and focus the argument.

Main Point: DONT tell me what I do and do not know and value. I have never compared myself to those who have been killed for their faith EVER. Stop making it seem like I am making a grievance equal to a life. I'm not, nor have I ever been.

1. The US is not a Christian country. Many of the founding fathers were athiest/agnostic. We have no state relgion for a reason. I consider trespasses against that to be a national offense.

2. I have never claimed that I'm the most oppreseed person in the world, but I live in the US and opression occcours here in many forms. We in the US are a well off people, but we have our own problems. Dealing with them is important, just as it is importnat to deal with mass crimes. Little steps help too.

3. History IS important. Keeping things in a historical viewpoint helps you to understand the evolution and the roots of the problem. The crimes you talk about are nothing new to hummanity. YOu complain about the ones now, but neglect the ones that have happend past. Past example help us study what is going on and put it inperspective. IT allows us to stand back and look at the whole situation. Of course we can deal with the current ones now, but to deal with Sudan shoudl we forget Rawanda and the Holocost?

4. Why should we ever be satisfied until all religious opression is stopped. SHould we just say <<Oh, i'm only somewhat oppresed, so I'm happy now?>> As a human being, I personally find it difficult to do that.

5. As an athiest, I have been oppressed, why are my grievances non-existant/not relevant?

6. As a ultra-nationalist, saying the pledge of allegience to me is a difficult thing. In order to publically express my patirotism, I'm forced to acknwledge a tresspass agaisnt my faith. You may find this and the other overtyyl Chirstian aspects of our current administation to be personally stupid, to me, its a very real part of my daily life. Don't tell me that because I didn't die, I'm not at all opressed.

Originally posted by Imlistening
I think that any religion that says that it is the true religion, and condems any other, is a religion thats full of s*h*it, therefore proving itself wrong. because if they cant prove that god exists then how can they even think of saying they are the one and only one thats getting anywhere.

Muslims are not the only ones who go to heaven in Islam.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Of course.
However I don't believe hateret exists on its own. I think we made it ourselves. I don't think its natural, but learnt.

Christians are not expetion as far as exploitation goes. Or violence. Much like all other organised religions.

And crusaides ARE irrelevant, for a simple reason that something that happened hundreds of years ago is used to compare something that is happening today.

Are the fact that they happened excuse people being persecuted? Do they directly affect people being persecuted in largly islamic countries?
I don't believe so, thus its irrelevant to bring it up.

What, you don't think that things that happened in the past affect our lives today? You still haven't responded to my stating that your main defense oF Christianity is that we have freedom of religion when the two have nothing to do with one another. Now THAT is irrelevent.

Originally posted by Alliance
I feel that you have used personal attacks as well. Please do not tell me what I do and do not know and please do nto tell me what I think and feel. That is being arrogant. You are encouraged to debate my views and opinions, but DONT tell me who I am.

I feel you have overreacted to many of the statements peole have made, that is why I called you on it. And you have not hesitated to use personal attacks back.

Here are some points to consider, hopefully this will shorten posts and focus the argument.

Main Point: DONT tell me what I do and do not know and value. [b]I have never compared myself to those who have been killed for their faith EVER. Stop making it seem like I am making a grievance equal to a life. I'm not, nor have I ever been.

1. The US is not a Christian country. Many of the founding fathers were athiest/agnostic. We have no state relgion for a reason. I consider trespasses against that to be a national offense.

2. I have never claimed that I'm the most oppreseed person in the world, but I live in the US and opression occcours here in many forms. We in the US are a well off people, but we have our own problems. Dealing with them is important, just as it is importnat to deal with mass crimes. Little steps help too.

3. History IS important. Keeping things in a historical viewpoint helps you to understand the evolution and the roots of the problem. The crimes you talk about are nothing new to hummanity. YOu complain about the ones now, but neglect the ones that have happend past. Past example help us study what is going on and put it inperspective. IT allows us to stand back and look at the whole situation. Of course we can deal with the current ones now, but to deal with Sudan shoudl we forget Rawanda and the Holocost?

4. Why should we ever be satisfied until all religious opression is stopped. SHould we just say <<Oh, i'm only somewhat oppresed, so I'm happy now?>> As a human being, I personally find it difficult to do that.

5. As an athiest, I have been oppressed, why are my grievances non-existant/not relevant?

6. As a ultra-nationalist, saying the pledge of allegience to me is a difficult thing. In order to publically express my patirotism, I'm forced to acknwledge a tresspass agaisnt my faith. You may find this and the other overtyyl Chirstian aspects of our current administation to be personally stupid, to me, its a very real part of my daily life. Don't tell me that because I didn't die, I'm not at all opressed. [/B]

Please quote where I have personaly attacked you, for a start.

Second - your view is extreamly ethnocentric, which is not suprising from an American.
You talk about History - and you bring up crusaids.
You fail to mention Armanian Genocide, Ottoman Empire, Invasion and Rape of India which killed sagnificantly MORE people than all the crusaides did- this is irellevant to you to mention and ''take into retrospective'' because it has never affected YOUR people.

I have never claimed that history is irrelevant! I claimed that it is irrelevant to compare something from the past to counter argument something that is happeneing today.

But please, do explain to me how is mentioning crussaides going to help understand why people of non-islamic religion are being presecuted?

the crusades are the single largest contributer to the animosity of westerners by muslims so that is why it has to do with the persecution of non muslims today. Prior to the crusades, hatred between the two religions was considerably less. Since then, it has increased exponentially since then. Our own president has referred to this war as a crusade while Osama bin Laden calls it a jihad. Both sides have made it clear that the crusades are fresh in their minds and are motivating them.
And you call it "irrelevent"!

Originally posted by Rapscallion
the crusades are the single largest contributer to the animosity of westerners by muslims so that is why it has to do with the persecution of non muslims today.

Muslims don't hate Christians because of crusaides - the bitter hostility today is a politically orinantated!

But please, do exaplain to me how did the Muslims hateret of Jews come about. Did that have to do with criusaides as well?!

Originally posted by Rapscallion
Prior to the crusades, hatred between the two religions was considerably less. Since then, it has increased exponentially since then.

The two religions NEVER hated each other. Quran never thought against Bible. In fact, its a good idea for you to read upon the history between Islam and Christianity, minus the power struggle. Strictly religious terms.

Originally posted by Rapscallion
Our own president has referred to this war as a crusade while Osama bin Laden calls it a jihad. Both sides have made it clear that the crusades are fresh in their minds and are motivating them.

a) President bush is the biggest dumbass on the face of the planet, hence him saying ''crusaide''. He didnt technically mean to say it to begin with.

b) In Islam (you would have known, have you bothered to research) Jihad is a ''fight against opressor'' not a universal ''holly war''.

Jihad is an arabic word for ''struggle''. Having a 'Jihad'' against America means struggeling against the opressor, which is pretty much what Osama said to begin with.

Originally posted by Rapscallion
And you call it "irrelevent"!

Iots extreamly irrelevant, particulary to my question - ''how is mentioning crussaides going to help understand why people of non-islamic religion are being presecuted?''

a) not all non-muslims are westners in the East
b) not all non-muslims are Christians.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
This is the stupidest thing I have ever read on KMC - and that says something.

Muslims don't hate Christians because of crusaides - the bitter hostility today is a politically orinantated!

But please, do exaplain to me how did the Muslims hateret of Jews come about. Did that have to do with criusaides as well?!

The two religions NEVER hated each other. Quran never thought against Bible. In fact, its a good idea for you to read upon the history between Islam and Christianity, minus the power struggle. Strictly religious terms.

a) President bush is the biggest dumbass on the face of the planet, hence him saying ''crusaide''. He didnt technically mean to say it to begin with.

b) In Islam (you would have known, have you bothered to research) Jihad is a ''fight against opressor'' not a universal ''holly war''.

Jihad is an arabic word for ''struggle''. Having a 'Jihad'' against America means struggeling against the opressor, which is pretty much what Osama said to begin with.

Iots extreamly irrelevant, particulary to my question - ''how is mentioning crussaides going to help understand why people of non-islamic religion are being presecuted?''

a) not all non-muslims are westners in the East
b) not all non-muslims are Christians.

Wow. As honored to have acquired that title of "stupidest thing ever read on KMC", I have to disagree with you. And, if you don't mind me saying, that comment doesn't have much credibility coming from someone who says that wars over land aren't politcal. The crusades were political. Also, you kind of prove my point when you say that the Quaran never thought against the Bible. Well duh, Islam was greatly inspired by both christianinity and Judaism. Your right, they didn't hate each other before, but they did after the crusades.

Wow. You're comment about Dubya could be the actual stupidist thing I have ever heard. I can appreciate your hyperbole about him being a dumbass, but then you actually imply that he doesn't know what he's saying, but you do. He said what he meant, and we alll know it . That's why it is so frightening. He's using religion to justify the war.

back on topic.

Now we come to the most ignorant statement of all. I had already touched on it : "Bitter hostility today is politically oriented!"

Maybe Bush wants oil, maybe he wants another friend in the middle east, there are certainly politics involved, but this conflict is anything but political. it is personal. At the end of the day it comes down to lmuslims and jews hate each other and the western and christian world sided with the jews. Now I hope your disclaiming of the relevence of the crusades is because you think the creation of Israel is more important. This war has everything to do with pride. The east and the west at this point just hate each other. Osama bin lden actually changed his political views during the gulf war from condeming Saddam Hussein to supporting him just so he could oppose the united states. Muslim extremists don't think this is political at all. American motivation for war is a little up in the air. However, there is a reason why we invaded Iraq and not Morth Korea which posed a much, much greater threat to our security.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Please quote where I have personaly attacked you, for a start.

Second - your view is extreamly ethnocentric, which is not suprising from an American.

😆

OH!...lets start there!

So, please tell me some about yourself since your view is so superior and your nationality as well...your nationality, country of residence (if not that of your nationality, religion.

Originally posted by Alliance
😆

OH!...lets start there!

So, please tell me some about yourself since your view is so superior and your nationality as well...your nationality, country of residence (if not that of your nationality, religion.

My country of residence, nationality(s), country where I grew up, countries where my parents are from and my religions are ALL different.

So as far as ethnocentrism goes - I wouldn't really know how it would apply to me, nor would I know HOW to apply it to me.

So, where have I personally attacked you. Please quote, so then I could either apologize or stop an argument of an extremaly rude individual.

What are you gonna do with the information about me (which I shall ot disclose on the internet!)? Are you gonna use all the knowledge you have regarding my multicultural and multiethnic background to prove...what?

Originally posted by Rapscallion
Wow. As honored to have acquired that title of "stupidest thing ever read on KMC", I have to disagree with you. And, if you don't mind me saying, that comment doesn't have much credibility coming from someone who says that wars over land aren't politcal. The crusades were political. Also, you kind of prove my point when you say that the Quaran never thought against the Bible. Well duh, Islam was greatly inspired by both christianinity and Judaism. Your right, they didn't hate each other before, but they did after the crusades.

Wow. You're comment about Dubya could be the actual stupidist thing I have ever heard. I can appreciate your hyperbole about him being a dumbass, but then you actually imply that he doesn't know what he's saying, but you do. He said what he meant, and we alll know it . That's why it is so frightening. He's using religion to justify the war.

back on topic.

Now we come to the most ignorant statement of all. I had already touched on it : "Bitter hostility today is politically oriented!"

Maybe Bush wants oil, maybe he wants another friend in the middle east, there are certainly politics involved, but this conflict is anything but political. it is personal. At the end of the day it comes down to lmuslims and jews hate each other and the western and christian world sided with the jews. Now I hope your disclaiming of the relevence of the crusades is because you think the creation of Israel is more important. This war has everything to do with pride. The east and the west at this point just hate each other. Osama bin lden actually changed his political views during the gulf war from condeming Saddam Hussein to supporting him just so he could oppose the united states. Muslim extremists don't think this is political at all. American motivation for war is a little up in the air. However, there is a reason why we invaded Iraq and not Morth Korea which posed a much, much greater threat to our security.

Come on dude!

Presendent Bush does not know what hes talking about because all he says hes been told to say. I certainly doubt he wanted to say ''Crusaides'' especially since Alliance few posts back, himself pointed out that the America is NOT a Christian country.

There is only one vaid argument - if Bush wanted to attack Islam as a religion in the war, then why is he not bombing Saudi Arabia? That IS the Islamic central, is it not?

But you're right, the war is pesonal - Bush is/was/will be trying to finish what his dad never got to...

And yes Crusaides were political - everything is fundamentaly political. Religion is politics...

lets leave it at that. I don't want to argue with you anymore. you're pretty good at it.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
My country of residence, nationality(s), country where I grew up, countries where my parents are from and my religions are ALL different.

So as far as ethnocentrism goes - I wouldn't really know how it would apply to me, nor would I know HOW to apply it to me.

So, where have I personally attacked you. Please quote, so then I could either apologize or stop an argument of an extremaly rude individual.

What are you gonna do with the information about me (which I shall ot disclose on the internet!)? Are you gonna use all the knowledge you have regarding my multicultural and multiethnic background to prove...what?

You're os quick to use my nationality against me, but you're afraid to disclose yours? I NEVER asked for your ethnicity, i asked for your contry of citizenship, your country of residence, and your relgion.

I'm multicultural/multiethnic too, I don't care about that.

I want to know your perspective. YOURE SO QUICK to dismiss my nationality and religion as insignificant. If I'm so bad, what are you thats SOOOO great? I only asked for the same information that YOU used against me.

This is all I want:

I'm a US citizen, living in America, I'm an athiest.

Originally posted by Alliance
You're os quick to use my nationality against me, but you're afraid to disclose yours? I NEVER asked for your ethnicity, i asked for your contry of citizenship, your country of residence, and your relgion.

I'm multicultural/multiethnic too, I don't care about that.

I want to know your perspective. YOURE SO QUICK to dismiss my nationality and religion as insignificant. If I'm so bad, what are you thats SOOOO great? I only asked for the same information that YOU used against me.

This is all I want:

I'm a US citizen, living in America, I'm an athiest.

You pointed out that you are ''ultra-nationalist''. Saying that you are in USA and 'ultra nationalist' does not leave ALL that much to imagination, really.

I don't doubt you know what ''being nationalist'' means, and it has very little to do with which citizenship you acquired.

In fact, ''ultra nationalist'' bit creeped me out a little bit.

Originally posted by Rapscallion
lets leave it at that. I don't want to argue with you anymore. you're pretty good at it.

I never meant to come across as rude or forceful - sometimes I do, not because of what people say, but of how they say them.
I do apologize.

fact is people dont really follow relegions but dogmas which are unique to the society or pocket of people they are surrounded by. this is why there are apparent extremist and the opposite in all relegions. this doesnt have much to do with relegion. its the way of thinking of the society and in that MOST muslims are extremists and well putting it crudely EVIL. with the christians its sumwhat different, their communities being at the heart of the rennaisance{europe} have by large given up the extreme ways of their ancestors and become christians only in name. there still are a disturbing number of brainwashed individuals in suothern america, central europe africa etc, who are extreme and follow evil dogmas but it is much less than the muslims. now coming to the actual relegion themselves the absolute truth is that both are truly EVIL and full of crap.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

I never meant to come across as rude or forceful - sometimes I do, not because of what people say, but of how they say them.
I do apologize.

no apology is needed. I think you miss-understood. i meant I was mentally tired from arguing because you presentconvincing arguments. it's a feeble sort of compliment. so really thank you for engaging me in a good argument. I haven't had one of those for a long time.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You pointed out that you are ''ultra-nationalist''. Saying that you are in USA and 'ultra nationalist' does not leave ALL that much to imagination, really. I don't doubt you know what ''being nationalist'' means, and it has very little to do with which citizenship you acquired.
In fact, ''ultra nationalist'' bit creeped me out a little bit.

You are perfectly right to think so, especially in reference to the USA, but let me explain.

Ultra-nationalism to me is not a mandate for 100% support of Bush and the "US is always right" and "we're thy hyperpower so we can do what we want" argument.

I'm very patriotic, but I'm not a flag waving, foreigner hating, bible holding zelot that for some reason defines patriotism in America these days.

My loyalty lies to the concept of America, what I think it stands for, not its administartion, or its congress, or its foreign policy (which all were seemingly born in the 7th circle).

These concepts are a thoery of how government should be run, about how people support the government and how government should support the poeple. My theory on government is broad ranging, including elements of facism, communism, democracy, republicanism, and socialsm. Infact, my nationalism to me is in many ways...my religion.

Since my government has been unabashedly failing in many respects, I have become angry with it, but I still love the idea that is America more than anything else. To have you so blatantly assault it was rather hurtful, especially when you waved away my claims that my government had violated my civil rights.

WHile your initial freaking out was certainly warranted given current circumstances, I hope you now see that there is a lot of depth to nationalism, especially mine.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Come on dude!

Presendent Bush does not know what hes talking about because all he says hes been told to say. I certainly doubt he wanted to say ''Crusaides'' especially since Alliance few posts back, himself pointed out that the America is NOT a Christian country.

There is only one vaid argument - if Bush wanted to attack Islam as a religion in the war, then why is he not bombing Saudi Arabia? That IS the Islamic central, is it not?

But you're right, the war is pesonal - Bush is/was/will be trying to finish what his dad never got to...

And yes Crusaides were political - everything is fundamentaly political. Religion is politics...

exactly on bushes behaf and how does that make us any different from them their government says that we ar ethe devil((not literally you get my point)) as does our about them and it falls on the people to believe what they are told as with religion theis claiming righetousness as does our... so how can one truly be labeled as evil? Or the supreme religion? Violence? does that make them wrong, i would disagree not every islamic person is a terrosist and i belive were equally as violent because we invade their home for this war on terror and fuel their negative opinons of us.

((hi guys its me blackgoku#1 lost old password for old account made new one how is everyone))

Originally posted by black_goku#1
ok i am a christian, or was until my church said that muslims were going to burn in hell for serving the wrong lord and not believing in jesus. i have to disagree because they do believe in the one all powerful god. they were brought up differnt and view it differnt but still praise god. what makes us christians so special or so right as to believe our way of worship is the only right way?

It doesn't.