Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre wrong here KG. Jean as Phoenix of the White Crown is beyond LT. I dont think you quite got the message of Xmen Forever after i told you to read it. Well basically the white hot room is the place where creation originates and the place where it ends after the end of all that is which is brought about in the natural scheme of things by phoenix. Basically creation will end when all beings in existence have evolved to the state of ultimate mutation a point where they transcend the physical, surpass all of the abstracts and become one with everything. At this point they have reached the ultimate potential, telekinetic godhood and they replace all of the abstracts and are second only to TOAA. When this occurs Phoenix ends all of creation and everything dissolves into the white hot room (the crown) where everyone is just waiting for themselves to arrive. Jean as the Phoenix of the white crown was the first to reach this state of ultimate potential, she has reached telekinetic godhood and as stated in the comics is beyond all of the abstracts such as LT, Eternity and so on as shown in Xmen Forever specifically which talks about this in detail, but also ive previously told you all in New Xmen, Endsong, Classic Xmen and Uncanny. Jean was the first and has a special relationship with the primal force of creation. Jeans union with primal force of creation created Phoenix. Its Jeans essence which makes others such as Rachel and Giraud(Galactic Guardians) a Phoenix host but Jean is the one true avatar. These hosts will likely go on to become true phoenixes in the event of their deaths. They die to be reborn that is the way of phoenix. However Jean is top of the hierarchy as the White Crown Phoenix.
Originally posted by Superherovandal
Oh and GS LT isn't an abstract like in my previous post he is wayyy beyond them. He is the guardian of MU. He takes orders from TOAA.
Incorrect SuperV LT is one of the abstracts. He is the top abstract. He is shown in Xmen Forever as one of the abstracts due to get replaced as humanity reaches its ultimate mutation. Jean was the first to reach her telekinetic godhood, the ultimate mutation, she now resides in the white hot room, she cant be a part of the corporeal world anymore. She only mainfests herself in our plane of reality to carry out her phoenix work. Work only phoenixes are capable of doing, work which endangers the cycle of creation. It is all explained in Xmen Forever. I just wish id remembered earlier. I focused more on how Phoenix was suggested to be an aspect of god instead of just telling you about how it is also the ultimate mutation as talked about throughout phoenixes history pre retcon, retcon era and now. It was talked about in Uncanny Xmen when phoenix emerged. Phoenix was called then the "ultimate psi potential" In Xmen forever it talks about and explains what ive just told you about how jean was the first to reach this ultimate potential as phoenix and the most important, but the evolution of humanity was eventually going to end with humanity replacing all of the abstracts LT included. All humanity would eventually become phoenixes. It is the way evolution is headed its the way it always heads. When this happens creation is brought to an end presumably by the top phoenix and everything dissolves into the white hot room, before phoenix eventually remakes creation. Jeans having reached the ultimate potential and being the "ultimate mutation" is talked about in New Xmen , more specifically the "Here comes tommorrow story arc" which is about the evil sentient bacterial life form Sublime trying to obtain some of jeans phoenix blood so it to can reach the ultimate potential and achieve telekinetic godhood which to would place it above all but TOAA.
References are: Uncanny Xmen 135-137, Xmen Forever ( issue 1, 3 and 6 especially but to get the whole picture its best to read the whole 6 part series) and New Xmen 154.
My scanner isnt working at the moment. I had hoped to post scans as well to settle this once and for all, however i'll try and get some up within the next few days. If you can try and pick up these issues or ask friends if they have them. Alternatively you can also download all of these comics quite easily via a program such as WinMx. Ask LongPig ive already helped him with doing that.
There it stands KG. Jean as Phoenix of the white crown is beyond LT as i have been trying to tell you for ages now.
Originally posted by kgkg
i have read all those
Cool. I have all of the issues in front of me KG i can point you to the relevant parts if you like? It didnt click in my head till last night when i re read the issues because i was bored. I just totally forgot. But just let me know when you have the issues to hand and we'll sort this out once and for all.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Cool. I have all of the issues in front of me KG i can point you to the relevant parts if you like? It didnt click in my head till last night when i re read the issues because i was bored. I just totally forgot. But just let me know when you have the issues to hand and we'll sort this out once and for all.
Issue # - and tell us the importance in each and i can check it , and give reference to events in the comic
uncanny xmen 133 in a conversation with banshee Moira and in uncanny xmen 135 in a convo with Angel, Moira and Prof X respectively both refer to Phoenix as the "ultimate potential"
Pg 19 of Xmen forever #1 Prosh gathers a team of mutants together to talk about a threat humanity faces. Prosh talks of how in the future humanity will evolve to the point where it will aurpass and in turn replace the abstracts. As he says this prosh creates an image of the abstracts he's talking about. Included are Eternity, Infinity, Chaos and Order and so on. But most importantly The Living Tribunal. Prosh says that the danger is that these "fundamental forces" will not allow themselves to be replaced and will act to stop humanity from progressing any further. Prosh goes on to say that Jean as Phoenix has already "touched these fundamental forces on their level"
Xmen Forever #3 pg 6 Prosh again talks of humanity evolving to replace the abstracts. Jeans consciousness is transported to inhabit her body in the classic xmen days the first roster when she was just marvel girl. She sneaks into Xaviers office and uncovers a file talking of how she has ""Omega(the last) Level Mutant abilities"" and the files talk of how these abilities are connected with an ""ultimate threat"" Prof X says according to Fred Duncan (X Cutioner) however he says that he prefers to just think about the unlimited potential these abilities entail. On the next page is a picture of the words "" unlimited potential"" in bold they dominate the page and below them is a picture of all the abstracts LT included.
In issue 6 the Stranger calls Jean the touchstone of his plans. He plans to use Phoenix to become the supreme being over all of the other abstracts. The Stranger tells Jean how her time as Phoenix scared the other abstracts and how it caused them to focus on the future problem of humanity.
Stranger shows Jean how humanity is going to evolve to replace the abstracts by manifesting an image of a D.NA chain slowly turning into eternity.
Eternity later appears to Jean telling her that the Stranger is wrong and that there will be no intervention from any of the abstracts , because they all accept their fate. They accept that they will eventually be replaced by humanity as and when it reaches its potential.
In New Xmen 128 Jean is talking with the professor and tells him of her increasing telekinetic sensitivity. Jeans consciousness is starting to permeate matter, through her powers she is becoming one with it. Professor Xavier tells Jean to levitate a dining set. She calls this test "beginner telekinesis". She misunderstood. She levitates the set and as she does so Prof X touches one of the forks. She is shocked when she finds that she can feel his pulse through the fork. Prof X then tells her that "telekinetic sensitivity this extremem is known as the "manifestation of the phoenix" by Shi'ar neuro-mystical surgeons". Jeans phoenix persona then takes over and she talks of a "destined disinfection" that is why jean is manifesting phoenix again and we find out later that its for good. Jean as Phoenix is reaches "the ultimate potential", she was here in this scenen starting to achieve again telekinetic godhood wherein her consciouness becomes one with all. Her essence permeates matter. That is the ultimate mutation. Its not just something Marvel made up its actually surprise surprise a term found in Kaballah lol.
In New Xmen 150 Jeans phoenix consciousness is released and she becomes Phoenix again to allow her to carry out the disinfection. She tells Wolverine that she doesnt know how long they'll let her stay. This is relating back to what i said earlier about those who have reached ultimate mutation not being able to exist as normal in the normal plane of existence. She was preparing Logan for her eventual departure to the white hot room where all who have reached ultimate potential go and what all creation eventually dissolves into. Logan talks about Jean as Phoenix being the "ultimate mutation" the supreme being and he says that she can basically do everything, he calls her "god"
In the same issue she is later "killed" by "magneto"
New Xmen 151-154 Jean is born again 150 years into our plane of reality to perform the destined disinfection. Sublime plans to obtain some of her blood so that he can reach the "ultimate potential" so that he can achieve "telekinetic godhood" and be supreme over all. All of these phrases are used by him. He talks of how all creation would be his. When he gets a sample of the phoenix blood and so samples telekinetic godhood he talks of how all life is his.
In issue 154 the end of the Here Comes Tomorrow arc(151 - 154) Quentin Quire an omega mutant like Jean who was shown in New Xmen to be evolving, he talked of being able to traverse the physical, he talked of going into different rooms ( which hinted at the white hot room) This happened back around New Xmen 125 at the end of the riot story arc. This all mirrored Jeans transformation into phoenix where she transcended the physical, became an entity of pure thought, one with everything, before reforming as phoenix. After Jean finished her disinfection in the future she returned to the white hot room where she saw Quentin Quire. He had evolved into a phoenix.
This supported what Xmen forever was saying about humanity eventually replacing the abstracts. Quentin evolved into a phoenix. Jean is called the ultimate potential, phoenix is called the ultimate mutation. In Xmen forever she was the "touchstone" of Strangers plans. Through Phoenix he planeed to become supreme over all. Just like Sublime did in new xmen also through phoenix. As the ultimate mutation which all humanity will eventually evolve into Phoenix is beyond abstracts LT included as shown by Xmen forever. It is slowly happening with Jean and quentin being among the first to do it.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
uncanny xmen 133 in a conversation with banshee Moira and in uncanny xmen 135 in a convo with Angel, Moira and Prof X respectively both refer to Phoenix as the "ultimate potential"Pg 19 of Xmen forever #1 Prosh gathers a team of mutants together to talk about a threat humanity faces. Prosh talks of how in the future humanity will evolve to the point where it will aurpass and in turn replace the abstracts. As he says this prosh creates an image of the abstracts he's talking about. Included are Eternity, Infinity, Chaos and Order and so on. But most importantly The Living Tribunal. Prosh says that the danger is that these "fundamental forces" will not allow themselves to be replaced and will act to stop humanity from progressing any further. Prosh goes on to say that Jean as Phoenix has already "touched these fundamental forces on their level"
Xmen Forever #3 pg 6 Prosh again talks of humanity evolving to replace the abstracts. Jeans consciousness is transported to inhabit her body in the classic xmen days the first roster when she was just marvel girl. She sneaks into Xaviers office and uncovers a file talking of how she has ""Omega(the last) Level Mutant abilities"" and the files talk of how these abilities are connected with an ""ultimate threat"" Prof X says according to Fred Duncan (X Cutioner) however he says that he prefers to just think about the unlimited potential these abilities entail. On the next page is a picture of the words "" unlimited potential"" in bold they dominate the page and below them is a picture of all the abstracts LT included.
In issue 6 the Stranger calls Jean the touchstone of his plans. He plans to use Phoenix to become the supreme being over all of the other abstracts. The Stranger tells Jean how her time as Phoenix scared the other abstracts and how it caused them to focus on the future problem of humanity.
Stranger shows Jean how humanity is going to evolve to replace the abstracts by manifesting an image of a D.NA chain slowly turning into eternity.
Eternity later appears to Jean telling her that the Stranger is wrong and that there will be no intervention from any of the abstracts , because they all accept their fate. They accept that they will eventually be replaced by humanity as and when it reaches its potential.
In New Xmen 128 Jean is talking with the professor and tells him of her increasing telekinetic sensitivity. Jeans consciousness is starting to permeate matter, through her powers she is becoming one with it. Professor Xavier tells Jean to levitate a dining set. She calls this test "beginner telekinesis". She misunderstood. She levitates the set and as she does so Prof X touches one of the forks. She is shocked when she finds that she can feel his pulse through the fork. Prof X then tells her that "telekinetic sensitivity this extremem is known as the "manifestation of the phoenix" by Shi'ar neuro-mystical surgeons". Jeans phoenix persona then takes over and she talks of a "destined disinfection" that is why jean is manifesting phoenix again and we find out later that its for good. Jean as Phoenix is reaches "the ultimate potential", she was here in this scenen starting to achieve again telekinetic godhood wherein her consciouness becomes one with all. Her essence permeates matter. That is the ultimate mutation. Its not just something Marvel made up its actually surprise surprise a term found in Kaballah lol.
In New Xmen 150 Jeans phoenix consciousness is released and she becomes Phoenix again to allow her to carry out the disinfection. She tells Wolverine that she doesnt know how long they'll let her stay. This is relating back to what i said earlier about those who have reached ultimate mutation not being able to exist as normal in the normal plane of existence. She was preparing Logan for her eventual departure to the white hot room where all who have reached ultimate potential go and what all creation eventually dissolves into. Logan talks about Jean as Phoenix being the "ultimate mutation" the supreme being and he says that she can basically do everything, he calls her "god"
In the same issue she is later "killed" by "magneto"New Xmen 151-154 Jean is born again 150 years into our plane of reality to perform the destined disinfection. Sublime plans to obtain some of her blood so that he can reach the "ultimate potential" so that he can achieve "telekinetic godhood" and be supreme over all. All of these phrases are used by him. He talks of how all creation would be his. When he gets a sample of the phoenix blood and so samples telekinetic godhood he talks of how all life is his.
In issue 154 the end of the Here Comes Tomorrow arc(151 - 154) Quentin Quire an omega mutant like Jean who was shown in New Xmen to be evolving, he talked of being able to traverse the physical, he talked of going into different rooms ( which hinted at the white hot room) This happened back around New Xmen 125 at the end of the riot story arc. This all mirrored Jeans transformation into phoenix where she transcended the physical, became an entity of pure thought, one with everything, before reforming as phoenix. After Jean finished her disinfection in the future she returned to the white hot room where she saw Quentin Quire. He had evolved into a phoenix.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm lol its you who's nitpicking. All that matters is that Phoenix created all life in creation, Phoenix created all the stars, planets, universes(which make up the multiverse) etc which she calls her "children" She created all of the abstracts. Eternity who is a living universe, Infinity the infinite space between his mass and so on. What else is left Synchy? Youre not trying to get me on the point that Phoenix didnt create everything single bit of life there is are you? For example if phoenix created amoeba which in turn went on over millions of years to evolve into the human race then she didnt create everything. Is that the point youre trying to make? LOL. If so now that is nitpicking and that is highly irrelevant.Of course if life evolves into other things from what phoenix initially created then thats cool and very obvious, so obvious i wouldnt have thought i needed to actually type it in. Phoenix is still responsible for their creation and phoenix still created the universes and abstracts the conditions for life to be formed later on and to evolve. I cant believe you were trying to make a point out of that, ( if you are) that changes nothing. No matter what life happens to evolve from what Phoenix initially created Phoenix is still one with it all, its essence still permeates all that is. When life forms reach a certain level of advancement on their own Phoenix is also the force that evolves them further until they reach the "ultimate potential" wherin they like Jean Grey already has, transcend the physical and surpass all of the abstracts and like jean become one with creation, it is at this point that they can enter the white hot room and phoenix ends creation with everything else in turn dissolving into the white hot room. If thats not what you were getting at then explain to me specifically what you think phoenix isnt responsible for.
When did I ever disagreed about Phoenix creating all life? Maybe I didnt made myself clear. Here's what I said:
Phoenix started the creation by creating life, thats it. Anything created beyond that is NOT entirely her doing. Living Beings(including abstracts) for which Phoenix created would be responsible for that.
When I said that, I didnt mean that Phoenix is not responsible for the evolution of life. What I meant with that is Phoenix started creation by creating life, but anything created other than that is not entirely her doing-----> meaning she is not fully responsible for creating concepts(ideas) by herself. She has to create sentient beings that embody the ideas for the ideas to actually take effect. She cant create the ideas itself on her own.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm For me to answer exactly what you want to hear you have to tell me exactly where the contradiction is. Spell it out because in my eyes there isnt one. Ive asked for the opinions of other kmc members and i am not alone. Eternity being a living universe and being attuned to everything within himself and Phoenix being one with all that is in the multiverse, especially when you consider that eternity is but a creation of phoenix doesnt conflict with each other. Eternity is obviously one with everything in a universe because he is that universe, its his body. Think of Phoenix as the lifes blood that runs through his veins. Without Phoenix he would cease to be. Wheres the incompataibility in that? There isnt one. Therefore no contradiction.
Uhuh, and think of Eternity as the life and blood that runs through everybody’s veins in a universe.
C’mon GS. What you said didn’t explain why there wasn’t a contradiction… at all. You just basically made the point that Phoenix created Eternity. A point I basically AGREED to. Nothing in there answers my question of: If Phoenix being one with everything means she created everything, then why isnt Eternity regarded as the one who created everything in a universe when he’s also one with it?
It’s still a contradiction, GS.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Im sorry but thats just your opinion and it isnt based in fact therefore it has no relevance here. Im sure most people would say that its more impressive to create concepts that can embody themselves into corporeal forms than to just create the concepts themselves. Creating standard corporeal life is completely different to creating a concept, giving it senience and the ability to manifest itself in the physical world. So your example has done nothing it isnt relevant.
Oh and yours is based on fact and is therefore relevant? Stop dreaming. Yes, that’s my opinion and will remain my opinion, but don’t think for even a second that yours is a fact. Im sorry but its also just your opinion, dude. Ive came to that conclusion because fiction stories as a whole seem to regard “creating life” as a common thing, you can see it on a good amount of stories. While I have never seen a story, except Lucifer, that has their characters create something that is not sentient, something that doesn’t have any form, something that is a notion, an idea.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm This is where you've come undone Synchy. I have always been careful to talk about the brothers individually, my argument if you go back and check was phoenix pitted against either of the brothers. I would have to read more Lucifer for me to argue about the brothers collectively Vs Phoenix but that as it stands is not what this is about. Neither of the brothers individually are responsible for the start of creation. Michael provided the matter, Lucifer shaped it. Theyre responsible together but thats irrelevant save it for another thread. Where is the evidence that the brothers maintain creation? Do they safeguard it against forces that only they have the power to deal with? Do they individually act as the life force for creation? You have yet to prove Lucifers essence runs through his multiverse.
lol!!!! Do you know what your talking about? Do you even know what “start of creation” means? Together, theyre not just responsible for the start of creation but theyre responsible for creating ALL of creation. Michael provides the matter for Lucifer to shaped it into suns, stars, planets, LIVING BEINGS, everything. And then they can create concepts individually.
Individually, I will admit that Im wrong about both of them starting creation. We can say that the one who started creation is only Michael since without him, no one will provide the matter for Lucifer to shape into a Multiverse. But ofcourse, without Lucifer no one will shape the matter that Michael provided into a Multiverse.
About the Maintenance of Creation, well Lucifer has guarded and is still guarding his Multiverse against enemies such as the Basanos, Susano-O, Izanami, Fenris, his other countless enemies and Heaven itself. And as we can see in the latest issues, he’s been successful so far in doing that. So what does that tell you?
And besides The Presence has already entrusted them the maintenance of the DC Multiverse(Michael does it mostly though) when he left.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Well as the one making claims its forum etiquette that you provide the proof. Be it scans or a quote which actually proves what youre trying to claim, instead of a quote you've just misinterpreted as doing so. Youre also the Lucifer fan with access to his comics so it makes sense that you do provide proof. As it stands until you do your point about Lucifer being one with his multiverse as well as jointly creating it is left unproven and will be ignored.
Ive already gave you proof. Lucifer #26 was where it was said that Lucifer and Michael created the DC Multiverse. Lucifer #15 was when Lucifer did the enacting his name thing and referred to him as The Alpha and The Omega to prove that he’s one with his Multiverse. Lucifer #46 was where Michael enacted Presence’s name into the DC Multiverse to keep it from collapsing. It supports the subject of Lucifer enacting his name, therefore making him one with his Multiverse.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm It wasnt just the heroes in this pocket universe and who's to say that all the other planets of Franklins universe werent inhabited with alternate reality versions of people in the 616 universe. Surely if you can make assumptions on the relative scale and complexity of Lucifers multiverse all based on just an offer from Lucifer which wasnt even taken up then surely i can make assumptions to? Michael and Lucifer making the proper multiverse to impress Presence tells me nothing about howa disgruntled Lucifers multiverse would stand up in comparison. Especially when he struck out on his own.
A good amount of beings in the WHOLE DC Multiverse left it and went to Lucifer’s Multiverse to start a new life. Whether or not everybody in the DC Multiverse took up the offer is irrelevant. The fact that Lucifer invited EVERYBODY to live in his Multiverse shows that it can accommodate them all, making it a proper Multiverse. I don’t really know whats so hard to understand.
And what do you mean “especially when he struck out on his own”. Are you saying that Lucifer’s Multiverse was created solely by Lucifer himself? If that’s the case then your completely wrong. Again, its also common knowledge that Lucy’s Multiverse was created by BOTH Michael and Lucifer, just like how they created the DC Multiverse together. Go to Lucifer #13. Lucifer killed Michael in the void, by doing so, the Demiurgic Energy poured out of his body and gave birth to the first matter and then Lucifer proceeded to shape it. Michael was also resurrected after that and went back to the DC Multiverse. That’s the reason why I kept bringing up the fact that DC Multiverse was created by them both. Because if they created DC, which is a proper Multiverse, then cant we say the same for Lucy’s Multiverse?
And your Franklin example shows how desperate you really are. Franklin only transported the heroes in his “pocket” universe. He didn’t transport everybody in the 616 universe into his universe. Seriously, if he can do that, then whats the use of naming it a “pocket” universe in the first place? I mean pocket universes are supposed to be small versions of the real universe. It doesn’t make sense at all if everybody in a proper universe(including normal people and ALL the abstracts) is able to live in a small universe. Think about that for a minute.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Seriously. I wanted to bang my head open when i read this.lol. Oh synchy *sigh* That isnt my logic at all. Thats just what you've interpreted from my clarifying of the whole "enacting" situation and my dismissing of your "lucifer is one with his multiverse" proof.Your reason for showing me the lucifer quote was to prove that it showed Lucifer was putting his essence into his multiverse because he was enacting his name. You were wrong. You simply misunderstood your own evidence. You then told me about the Yahweh quote which was suppose to prove that because Michael was enacting Yahwehs name and Yahwehs essence in turn was binded to the matter of the multiverse, that Lucifers essence must have been bound to his own multiverse just because he enacted his own name to. You were incorrect. Because you never spotted the deeper meaning of the text you assumed that the act of enacting your name universally meant that essence was to be bound to something. Very wrong. But ive shown you the error of your ways. So lets move on shall we? Yahweh is the supreme being beyond the brothers he is supposed to be one with creation it is how he wanted his multiverse made so he gave Michael the power to bind his name into the matter which not only gave life to it but also made him one with it. It made the presences multiverse special. Who is to say that the Presences name must be enacted for a multiverse to live? For there to be life even. Presence has left and assigned everything to the brothers yet the multiverse hasnt died or been adversely affected has it? Lucifer has a multiverse yet you have no proof that he bound his essence to it, or even that that is required to give life to matter. Thats just another assumption of yours based on how Yahweh wanted his multiverse, the main multiverse created.
Phoenix represents and embodies life, it is one with life and works for and was itself created by TOAA. Phoenixes essence courses through the multiverse making her one with it and keeping it alive. Phoenix is also named after an aspect of TOAA which along with many other factors in the comics she is featured in, heavily suggest this is the case. So the fact that without Phoenix there would be no life in is because in Marvel Phoenix actually embodies creation and all life, that is how and why Phoenix is bound to it. Remember Yahweh doesnt exist in Marvel so what is or isnt required in Dc for life to exist is irrelevant to it and especially phoenix.
lol!!! The Presence’s Multiverse is special? The Presence’s name was enacted on HIS Multiverse because its his PROPERTY. I mean you didn’t see Michael and Lucifer enacting Presence’s name into Lucy’s Multiverse, did you? You didn’t see Lucifer’s Multiverse collapsing like the DC Multiverse when The Presence left, did you? C’mon now.
And the fact that the DC Multiverse was collapsing when the Presence(whose essence is coursing through everything) left, should tell us the same thing about Lucifer’s Multiverse-----> that a Multiverse will collapse if no essence is coursing through it to keep it alive.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm So Lucifer describes himself the "Alpha and omega" and you give me a passage from the bible a real world reference as proof of what he is. So youre saying that despite most people and comic books using the term to just mean the beginning and end of something (e.g Apocalypse always describes and is described as so) when Lucifer says it he must be what it says in the bible despite there being a variety of alternate definitions. Do you not see the double standards? Despite Phoenix calling herself, being referred to by others and captions and being shown by parallels and symbology to be an aspect of TOAA when i use real world references you say im not allowed to, it means nothing, it doesnt mean the power levels are comparable. Im not having that Synchy. That quote doesnt mean for one second that he is one with everything. That is far from conclusive evidence by your own logic. Other powerful cosmic beings Galactus, Thanos and so on have said it but they arent one with everything.Lucifer isnt shown to be one with everything, he isnt constantly referred to as being one with everything, he isnt solely responsible for the creation of a multiverse. Phoenix is though, she’s shown to be and shes also called the alpha and omega. Sorry your quote isnt good enough.
No. The problem with your Kaballah Symbology/Phoenix parallel, is that your trying to DIRECTLY compare the true Tiphereth’s powers to Phoenix. Im not doing the same thing. Im just incorporating the MEANING of The Alpha and The Omega from our real world into the comics world.
And you know that Im okay with paralleling the origins, meaning, functions of someone/something from our real world into the comics world(Ive said that to you in your Tiphereth/Phoenix comparison, Ive basically agreed with the comparison of Tiphereth’s origins, meaning, functions to Phoenix). Just not their powers/abilities.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""When I said that, I didnt mean that Phoenix is not responsible for the evolution of life. What I meant with that is Phoenix started creation by creating life, but anything created other than that is not entirely her doing-----> meaning she is not fully responsible for creating concepts(ideas) by herself. She has to create sentient beings that embody the ideas for the ideas to actually take effect. She cant create the ideas itself on her own.
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If you want to nitpick just for the sake of having a point then thats entirely up to you but i and other readers know im right and it doesnt change the fact that phoenix is greater than either one of the brothers as i have been arguing right from the beginning. Your love for the them cant even let you admit that.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Uhuh, and think of Eternity as the life and blood that runs through everybody’s veins in a universe.
C’mon GS. What you said didn’t explain why there wasn’t a contradiction… at all. You just basically made the point that Phoenix created Eternity. A point I basically AGREED to. Nothing in there answers my question of: If Phoenix being one with everything means she created everything, then why isnt Eternity regarded as the one who created everything in a universe when he’s also one with it?
It’s still a contradiction, GS.
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I have never said once that phoenix created everything because she is one with everything. I have never said that statement once. You've just misinterpreted that from my posts. Phoenix created everything because the comics said she did AND she is also one with all that is. Ive listed comic references multiple times throughout this thread so go and check them out for confirmation. Why would i think of Eternity like that when i know thats not the case? For the above reason what you've just said about eternity to make a point is now rendered null and void. Now lets move on Synchy.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Oh and yours is based on fact and is therefore relevant? Stop dreaming. Yes, that’s my opinion and will remain my opinion, but don’t think for even a second that yours is a fact. Im sorry but its also just your opinion, dude. Ive came to that conclusion because fiction stories as a whole seem to regard “creating life” as a common thing, you can see it on a good amount of stories. While I have never seen a story, except Lucifer, that has their characters create something that is not sentient, something that doesn’t have any form, something that is a notion, an idea.
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No my idea is not entirely based on fact either therefore because none of can prove which is better or more accomplished we're going to have to deem them as equal. Simple as. But one thing you need to take into consideration is that different doesnt equal better Synchy. Just because you've never seen anyone else just give rise to the non sentient concepts doesnt make it any better. Phoenix still creates the concepts its just that they also have sentience. Thats just how concepts are treated in Marvel and thats that. Some people will say that , that makes them better than just a notion that simply exists, and im one of them and some like yourself disagree, howeve there is no way of finding out for certain so despite what we both believe it will have to be regarded as something they can both do.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""lol!!!! Do you know what your talking about? Do you even know what “start of creation” means? Together, theyre not just responsible for the start of creation but theyre responsible for creating ALL of creation. Michael provides the matter for Lucifer to shaped it into suns, stars, planets, LIVING BEINGS, everything. And then they can create concepts individually.
Individually, I will admit that Im wrong about both of them starting creation. We can say that the one who started creation is only Michael since without him, no one will provide the matter for Lucifer to shape into a Multiverse. But ofcourse, without Lucifer no one will shape the matter that Michael provided into a Multiverse.
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Exactly so none of them individually are responsible for the start of creation. Starting off creation was a joint act. You havent disagreed with me as such you just havent agreed with me directly you just waffled a bit because you didnt want to. So together they are responsible for the start of creation against phoenix who is solely responsible in Marvel. But thats to be expected with her role as the primal force of creation.
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About the Maintenance of Creation, well Lucifer has guarded and is still guarding his Multiverse against enemies such as the Basanos, Susano-O, Izanami, Fenris, his other countless enemies and Heaven itself. And as we can see in the latest issues, he’s been successful so far in doing that. So what does that tell you?
And besides The Presence has already entrusted them the maintenance of the DC Multiverse(Michael does it mostly though) when he left.
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So they maintain the multiverse in terms of fighting off threats and such however you have yet to prove that Lucifer along with jointly creating his own multiverse with Michael is also one with it, that he is the life force that keeps it going. If you can show that Michael or Lucifer have this ability then cool. You have yet to do so however.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Ive already gave you proof. Lucifer #26 was where it was said that Lucifer and Michael created the DC Multiverse. Lucifer #15 was when Lucifer did the enacting his name thing and referred to him as The Alpha and The Omega to prove that he’s one with his Multiverse. Lucifer #46 was where Michael enacted Presence’s name into the DC Multiverse to keep it from collapsing. It supports the subject of Lucifer enacting his name, therefore making him one with his Multiverse.
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Lucifer #15 was not proof that he has the same role as Phoenix in regards to that multiverse. There are many definitons to those terms as ive previouslt talked about. For all you know it just means that he is that multiverses beginning and end. It doesnt prove that he is one with that multiverse and that his life force empowers it. It just doesnt.
Lucifer 46 where Michael enacted Yahwehs name, DOES NOT support the subject of Lucifer enacting his name meaning he is one with the multiverse. That much is quite obvious. Ive already picked apart your quotes and shown you what they mean. Lucifers enacting of his name was referring to him creating suns and bringing light. If he later went o to join with his multiverse and become its life force then fair enouh, provide me the evidence, but until you do that is not a point you can use. The act of enacting ones name doesnt universally mean to become one with, to bond your essence to Synchy. Im lost for words if you believe that. I know you so want that to be the case because of your love for Lucifer but im afraid to inform its just NOT. Enacting the name of Yahweh is to bring into existence, to bring life to. So by bonding Yahwehs essence to the matter, through Presences will thats exactly what happened, his essence flowed through the matter like lifes blood. Thats how his name was enacted. The act of bonding of his essence to the matter that act wasnt the enaction, it was the fact that his essence gives life so after it was bonded then his name was enacted. I say once again and hopefully for the last time, enacting ones name does NOT mean universally to merge your life force with something. What it means is all dependent on the subjects name, what the name means, what it represents.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""And what do you mean “especially when he struck out on his own”. Are you saying that Lucifer’s Multiverse was created solely by Lucifer himself? If that’s the case then your completely wrong. Again, its also common knowledge that Lucy’s Multiverse was created by BOTH Michael and Lucifer, just like how they created the DC Multiverse together. Go to Lucifer #13. Lucifer killed Michael in the void, by doing so, the Demiurgic Energy poured out of his body and gave birth to the first matter and then Lucifer proceeded to shape it. Michael was also resurrected after that and went back to the DC Multiverse. That’s the reason why I kept bringing up the fact that DC Multiverse was created by them both. Because if they created DC, which is a proper Multiverse, then cant we say the same for Lucy’s Multiverse?
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No i did NOT mean that Lucifer created his multiverse solely by himself. Of course not why would i think that? If i did then i wouldnt have any reason to argue about Lucifer Vs Phoenix because that would show that they were more or less on equal footing. Come on think things through before you type Synchy. I meant without the Presences blessing which he had when created the presences multiverse with Michael.
Can Lucifer generate demiurgic energy as well?
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""lol!!! The Presence’s Multiverse is special? The Presence’s name was enacted on HIS Multiverse because its his PROPERTY. I mean you didn’t see Michael and Lucifer enacting Presence’s name into Lucy’s Multiverse, did you? You didn’t see Lucifer’s Multiverse collapsing like the DC Multiverse when The Presence left, did you? C’mon now.
And the fact that the DC Multiverse was collapsing when the Presence(whose essence is coursing through everything) left, should tell us the same thing about Lucifer’s Multiverse-----> that a Multiverse will collapse if no essence is coursing through it to keep it alive.
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Not necessarily. I'll properly address all of your doubts tomorrow. Im just gathering info at the moment to end this once and for all. How did Michael and Lucifer prevent the collapsing of the DC multiverse when the Presence left?
Originally posted by long pig
Sounds legit, dude.So, what next? With Phoenix as an x-man, who could ever possibly beat them?
When she's part of the team she never has such cosmic power levels. In normal day to day circumstances psychic circuit breakers cut down her power to an appropriate level. The phoenix consciousness is contained until Jean needs to carry out her phoenix work at which point its released and then after her work is completed she goes back to the white hot room. Jean will never again be a a regular part of the team. Jean will only return to our plane of existence when she needs to carry out her phoenix work.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm If you want to nitpick just for the sake of having a point then thats entirely up to you but i and other readers know im right and it doesnt change the fact that phoenix is greater than either one of the brothers as i have been arguing right from the beginning. Your love for the them cant even let you admit that.
lol!!! If you don’t have anything more to say to it, then fine. Believe what you want to believe if that’s what makes you happy, you aint convincing me though.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm I have never said once that phoenix created everything because she is one with everything. I have never said that statement once. You've just misinterpreted that from my posts. Phoenix created everything because the comics said she did AND she is also one with all that is. Ive listed comic references multiple times throughout this thread so go and check them out for confirmation. Why would i think of Eternity like that when i know thats not the case? For the above reason what you've just said about eternity to make a point is now rendered null and void. Now lets move on Synchy.
You only cleared this up now? You couldve said it to me a long time ago. We wouldve saved a lot of space. And who wouldn’t interpret it as “One with all that is=Created everything” if your keep bringing up “Phoenix is one with eveything” in our every discussion about whether or not Phoenix created everything?
And about your “comic references”, Ive already picked out the flaws in it. Check them out for confirmation.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm No my idea is not entirely based on fact either therefore because none of can prove which is better or more accomplished we're going to have to deem them as equal. Simple as. But one thing you need to take into consideration is that different doesnt equal better Synchy. Just because you've never seen anyone else just give rise to the non sentient concepts doesnt make it any better. Phoenix still creates the concepts its just that they also have sentience. Thats just how concepts are treated in Marvel and thats that. Some people will say that , that makes them better than just a notion that simply exists, and im one of them and some like yourself disagree, howeve there is no way of finding out for certain so despite what we both believe it will have to be regarded as something they can both do.
Yes, exactly. Its my opinion and you have your own opinion. And that will remain my opinion.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Exactly so none of them individually are responsible for the start of creation. Starting off creation was a joint act. You havent disagreed with me as such you just havent agreed with me directly you just waffled a bit because you didnt want to. So together they are responsible for the start of creation against phoenix who is solely responsible in Marvel. But thats to be expected with her role as the primal force of creation.
No. Michael STARTS creation by providing the very first matter. And Lucifer finishes creation by shaping that matter into… well… everything. So by linking that up, the brothers together not just starts creation, but creates everything in existence.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm So they maintain the multiverse in terms of fighting off threats and such however you have yet to prove that Lucifer along with jointly creating his own multiverse with Michael is also one with it, that he is the life force that keeps it going. If you can show that Michael or Lucifer have this ability then cool. You have yet to do so however.Lucifer #15 was not proof that he has the same role as Phoenix in regards to that multiverse. There are many definitons to those terms as ive previouslt talked about. For all you know it just means that he is that multiverses beginning and end. It doesnt prove that he is one with that multiverse and that his life force empowers it. It just doesnt.
Lucifer 46 where Michael enacted Yahwehs name, DOES NOT support the subject of Lucifer enacting his name meaning he is one with the multiverse. That much is quite obvious. Ive already picked apart your quotes and shown you what they mean. Lucifers enacting of his name was referring to him creating suns and bringing light. If he later went o to join with his multiverse and become its life force then fair enouh, provide me the evidence, but until you do that is not a point you can use. The act of enacting ones name doesnt universally mean to become one with, to bond your essence to Synchy. Im lost for words if you believe that. I know you so want that to be the case because of your love for Lucifer but im afraid to inform its just NOT. Enacting the name of Yahweh is to bring into existence, to bring life to. So by bonding Yahwehs essence to the matter, through Presences will thats exactly what happened, his essence flowed through the matter like lifes blood. Thats how his name was enacted. The act of bonding of his essence to the matter that act wasnt the enaction, it was the fact that his essence gives life so after it was bonded then his name was enacted. I say once again and hopefully for the last time, enacting ones name does NOT mean universally to merge your life force with something. What it means is all dependent on the subjects name, what the name means, what it represents.
Ive already exlained to you everything as to why Lucifer is one with his multiverse. Lucifer has enacted his name on everything in existence which in turn making him one with it. Ive supported that by bringing up Michael enacting Yahweh’s name into every atom of existence to keep the DC Multiverse by collapsing.
And your only rebuttal for that is: Yahweh means to bring to existence, to give life so its only fitting for him to enact his name and be one with it, while Lucifer cant be doing the same because the meaning of his name is different than Yahweh.
Seriously GS, that’s not enough. Because if were just gonna base it on the meaning of there names, then Lucifer’s Multiverse wouldn’t have been created in the first place because the meaning of the names Lucifer and Michael does not mean “to bring existence, to give lfe”
Plus Ive always brought up the fact that a Multiverse/Universe will collapse if there’s no essence running through it to keep it alive. This is supported by the fact that the DC Multiverse was collapsing when The Presence, whose essence runs through everything in DC, left. So, someone wouldve been holding Lucifer’s Multiverse to keep it from collapsing. And seeing that its not The Presence’s Multiverse, then who would be more fitting to do that than Lucifer?
And how can you explain to me the bubble-things that formed Lucifer when he was creating the gates? The bubbles-things were separating from him and going elsewhere when he was creating the gates.
Plus there’s the fact that he referred to himself as the Alpha and the Omega.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm No i did NOT mean that Lucifer created his multiverse solely by himself. Of course not why would i think that? If i did then i wouldnt have any reason to argue about Lucifer Vs Phoenix because that would show that they were more or less on equal footing. Come on think things through before you type Synchy. I meant without the Presences blessing which he had when created the presences multiverse with Michael.Can Lucifer generate demiurgic energy as well?
If were just basing this off through The Presence’s blessing, then we wouldn’t have considered Michael and Lucifer creating The Multiverse on their OWN power possible in the first place. I mean if all it takes is The Presence’s blessing, then the brothers couldve just used that blessing, instead of their powers, in making and maintaining the Multiverse.
And no. Lucifer doesn’t have the Demiurgic Energy. The Demiurgic Energy is God’s power and he gave that to Michael, while God gave his will to Lucifer.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Not necessarily. I'll properly address all of your doubts tomorrow. Im just gathering info at the moment to end this once and for all. How did Michael and Lucifer prevent the collapsing of the DC multiverse when the Presence left?
Ill be waiting. And Michael prevented the collapse of the DC Multiverse by writing out Yahweh’s name into every atom of existence, which prevented it from collapsing. Lucifer had nothing to do with it.
YES. Synchro. You just said exactly what i wanted you to say. I can now settle this matter once and for all. As it stands this has gone on for far to long now and i really cant be arsed at the moment but whether its tomorrow when i wake up or in 2 days time, please check back because you have given me the means to settle this nonsense once and for all and for that i thank you.