Silver Surfer, Pheonix and Galactus vs All of Marvel and DC Universe

Originally posted by Xplosive
Not excatly as PF is. It's different. PF takes this.
And Infinity Being is not TOAA, we ever saw TOAA, we can only assume he is God and his power is absolute.

What do you mean "not exactly as PF is"? Different how? You have to explain your position on things for it to be valid.

PF has been explained in some (though not all) Marvel comics, to be second to TOAA. The Brothers have been explained in all DC comics to be second to Presence. They all played key roles in creating all that is. Presence = TOAA. Seems the same to me.

We've never seen Infinity Being, either. What's your point? The IB was explained to be "all that is" (TOAA), and its "death" caused the "everything" as we know it. Does it conflict with the Phoenix origin? Yeah, but heck, it's Marvel...what can you do?

<<Don't you know how to use the "quote" button? It's a lot easier than writing out what they post. It's saves time and it's less confusing.>>

ya, they're pretty tough to follow. i'd be more concerned about being confused by my quotes, than i would be about trying to teach me something . . .

🙂

ps-thanks for the support kg, ya bastich.

Originally posted by demigawd
What do you mean "not exactly as PF is"? Different how? You have to explain your position on things for it to be valid.

PF has been explained in some (though not all) Marvel comics, to be second to TOAA. The Brothers have been explained in all DC comics to be second to Presence. They all played key roles in creating all that is. Presence = TOAA. Seems the same to me.

We've never seen Infinity Being, either. What's your point? The IB was explained to be "all that is" (TOAA), and its "death" caused the "everything" as we know it. Does it conflict with the Phoenix origin? Yeah, but heck, it's Marvel...what can you do?

Why cause IG , LT > PF

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Don't you know how to use the "quote" button? It's a lot easier than writing out what they post. It's saves time and it's less confusing.>>

ya, they're pretty tough to follow. i'd be more concerned about being confused by my quotes, than i would be about trying to teach me something . . .

🙂

ps-thanks for the support kg, ya bastich.

Originally posted by kgkg
Infinity Being > PF

Why cause IG , LT > PF

Have you learnt nothing from GalacticStorm.

I don't get why GS doesn't multiquote, it make this a hella lot easier to read......

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""What is the meaning of “Primal”? huh?

Primal – Primary; Being first in time; primeval; Of first importance.

That’s what Primal means. It doesn’t mean anything about being the source of everything else. Phoenix is THE Primal Force of Creation because it STARTED the creation of everything. This goes well with the issue you gave me about Phoenix jumpstarting creation. See, Phoenix only started it, she didn’t create everything. Phoenix is the most important(Primal) because without her, there’s no one who would provide that first spark. There’s no one who would start the process for the others to follow. Just like the analogy of the Inventors of the first automobile. Because of them, the age of cars began. They jumpstarted the creation of it. But does that mean that they created/or can create every single car up to the present?
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Im well aware of the meaning of primal. True. It means of first importance, it means the original. When applied to 'force of creation' It means the primary force responsible for creation. If other things spring up as a result of phoenixes work then that is irrelevant. Phoenix is known to have created the eternitys of the mutiverses, the living embodiment of universes, phoenix is known to be responsible for the creation of all of the abstracts which reside in each universe, phoenix is known to be the force that connected all the universes of the multiverse together. What you are saying has no effect on what ive said previously, it doesnt undermine it one bit. For example If there are beings within one of the phoenix created universe that decide to create alternate universes or solar systems, how does that have any relevance? I know of such beings who have such tendencies. There are the cube beings, the infinites, the celestials. However phoenix is the force primarily responsible for creation and nothing you say can or will change that. Especially when you factor in how phoenix is one with everything in creation as well. It is futile to try and nitpick at this area because it is fact.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""And what are you blabbing about Michael and Lucifer not creating the main multiverse? They are the ones who CREATED the DC Multiverse. It was explicitly stated in Lucifer #26.
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Cool. How you were talking about the whole situation earlier on confused me which resulted in that oversight, i could quote you so as to defend myself but im quite adult enough to admit i was wrong in that respect. Doesnt really change anything though. I never used that point until my last post it was far from a primary point as to why phoenix is greater than either of the brothers individually.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Oh c’mon GS. Stop pretending. Im pretty sure your contradicting yourself. What I said is very simple, and you cant understand it?

Phoenix – One with all that is = created everything in existence, including every universe in the Marvel Multiverse(according to you)

Eternity – One with all that is in a universe = created the universes in the Marvel Multiverse.

That’s a contradiction. Its as simple as that. Im just using your logic here, dude.
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It really isnt a contradiction Synch although you wish it was because then you'd actually have a point. The simple fact of the matter is phoenix is one with all of creation. That is not debatable its stated in the comics god knows how many times and this fact is accepted by all. Eternity is the living embodiment of a universe, a reality, he is attuned to all that has, is and will be going on within his confines. He is a but a segment within the greater whole that is the multiverse which phoenix is one with. Thats simple enough just accept it, its really not debatable.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sentient Being embodying a Concept is a teeny weeny bit different than the Concept itself. Even if Eternity embodies a universe, he’s still a sentient being that has consciousness. Meaning he still has life. The Concepts Im talkin about is the IDEAS ITSELF, not some sentient being that embodies it. Im talking about the idea of time, love, hate, etc. which has no life, which has no one embodying it. Its the idea itself. Because that’s what Lucifer did. He created that IDEAS ITSELF, as oppose to creating sentient beings that embodies that ideas

And please stop making excuses such as “Marvels way of doing things”. Just stop.

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Youre really stretching here Synch and the simple fact of the matter is, that is how things are done in Marvel, it is as simple as that. Whether you so obviously more attuned to all things Dc like it or nor not that is just how it is. Without those abstracts, those concepts do not exist in any given reality those abstracts arent created within. Ive already given you proof of this already, stop nitpicking for the sake of bolstering your argument. It will change nothing, ask anyone else within these forums then come back here and i'll gladly let us move on without saying as much as a ""I told you so"" In marvel fundamental concepts have sentience and embody themselves as the previously mentioned abstracts. They are one and the same. When Death was killed, there was no death, when eternity was dispatched, thanos immediately became the living embodiment of the universe to fill the void , simple as. There no getting round that. Different to DC? Yes. But not any worse for it. Lets move on.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Too bad, your already wrong in your first sentence. Michael and Lucifer created the DC Multiverse, the Proper Multiverse, read Lucifer #26. Ive already said that countless times on other threads, its already common knowledge. And the Presence’s test wasn’t about Lucifer’s Multiverse. His test was about all the things that Michael and Lucifer went through in the DC Multiverse starting from the creation of DC up to the present day so that Presence can decide on who will succeed him as the next ruler of the DC Multiverse.

And Ive already explained the meaning of the Primal Force of Creation. It is NOT where all things originate. It does NOT mean it created everything. Its merely the starting process of creating. It’s the one that triggers the creation of something.
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Fair dos. I've already explained myself above. I wont try to blindly argue knowing when im wrong on something because im an adult and this point has little effect on my argument. Lucifer or Michael individually arent the primal force of creation because neither of them individually are responsible for both the start and maintenance of creation, and neither of them are one with creation. They are both just powerful beings who together can create a multiverse. Individually neither of them are a match for phoenix. Thats what ive been saying all along but your love for them clouds your minds despite that fact being quite apparent. As the primal force of creation, Phoenix began and is responsible for creation, her essence flows through it all and it is phoenix who ends all of creation in the natural scheme of things. It has already been proven that without Phoenix there is no creation it will all fade away. In Excalibur Rachel who was a host to some of Jeans phoenix essence allowed Galactus to try to exorcise the shard of phoenix that was within her. The result was that creation started fading away beginning with the stars in the firmament. That was just Rachel. The one true Phoenix is beyond either of the brothers individually.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""No. I have proven that Lucifer is one with everything in his Multiverse. Ive already made several points why. To which you didn’t counter all of it. Again, a Multiverse/Universe is no good if there’s no one holding it together. Its no good if there’s nothing that flows through it to keep it alive. It will collapse.

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No you have assumed that Lucifer is one with all of his multiverse. You have yet to prove that is the case despite what you believe. You have yet to prove how Lucifers multiverse compares in comparison to the proper one, the fact that he has one does not mean his essence flows through it just because the presences does in the proper multiverse. Youre a Lucifer fan so you should have access to the appropriate materials. Do you want to post a scan which shows the presences multiverse being made as well as the one where Lucifer is constructing his.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""OMG! Even a 5 year old kid would be able to get what Im saying. Lucifer accomodating every single living being from a proper multivese into his own is PROOF ENOUGH that it’s a proper Multiverse.

And when did we ever start comparing The US to the combined nations of the World? I though were just discussing the US against very single country in the world? I mean that’s what were doing in Lucifer’s case, right? comparing his multiverse into ONE proper Multiverse, NOT the combined multiverses of the omniverse?

Plus the fact that they created the DC Multiverse which is a PROPER Multiverse. What does that tell you
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Lucifer offering to accommodate every single person in the multiverse really is not proof enough. It says nothing about how his multiverse compares to the proper multiverse. Just like Franklin Richards pocket universe could accommodate alternate reality versions of everyone within the proper universe, however his pocket universe paled in comparison to a proper universe which he was incapable of creating and was also only temporary. See my point? Youve proved not a thing. A multiverse is made up of many, many universes. You have no idea of how Lucifers compares. For all we know the Presences one is far more complex and grand which of course would require a lot more power to construct. I used the U.S against the combined nations of the world to emphaisise the point that for all you know thats exactly how Lucifers multiverse could stack up against the Presences one. It might be able to accommodate everyone, but its far less complex and is on a far smaller scale. Lucifer didnt actually get everyone into his multiverse did he? He just offered. Another thing to take into consideration. For one who likes to come down on me for my heavily supported TOAA aspect argument, you sure like to base a lot of your arguments on assumption. I 'll remember that for next time.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""*sigh*. Look at Lucifer #26. It was explained there how he got his name. It was said that at the beginning there was only the Presence. Then he created 2 angels who, shortly afterwards, created the entire Multiverse. The name of the angels are the Archangel Michael and Archangel Samael(Lucifer) the “Lightbringer”. Again that was said in Lucifer #26, He’s already named the lightbringer ever since he existed. Lucifer Morningstar IS the name that he adopted after he fell from heaven. Read the entire Lucifer Comic book. And he wasn’t just seen creatng stars, he was shown creating everything(i.e his version of Earth, other planets and other stars). This was in Lucifer #15 when Elaine was accidentally brought to Lucifer’s Multiverse. There, she saw Lucifer holding Earth and noticed that the shape of the galaxy for which that version of Earth is placed is different that the shape of the Milky Way Galaxy.

So I don’t quite really understand what your saying. You just brought those names of Lucifer because he is creating the sun/star? Well too bad that logic of yours irrelevant, because he was also shown to be creating planets, galaxies, UNIVERSES too.

And about the enacting thing, again when Michael put the essence of God into every atom of existence in DC. It was said as “Enacting Yahweh’s name, which in turn flowed through every vein, every atom of existence” read Lucifer #46 NUFF SAID!!!
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i'll break it down once again. Lucifer means both "LightBringer" and "Morning Star" both of these names are used to refer to him in the comics. Lucifer may have created other things other than stars but whats your point. The quote you gave me was meant to show me that he was weaving his essence into his multiverse. That he was one with it. That was the point of you showing it. What he did before or after that is of no relevance, that quote was supposed to show him doing that. It did not. All it showed was the writers clever wordplay. "The Lightbringer" enacted (acted out) his name by bringing light. He was creating a sun in that quote. Simple as. If you can provide a quote which states or shows Lucifer during its creation weaved his essence into his multiverse or says that Lucifer is one with it then fair enough. But as it stands that point just doesnt cut it. Im not being rude here but im telling you straight up that i have knowledge of english literature to a high level. That quote just doesnt prove what you want it to. All its done is make me want to pick up more of that writers work and nothing else.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""when Michael put the essence of God into every atom of existence in DC. It was said as “Enacting Yahweh’s name,
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I hate to do this to you Synch but as for that point about Yahwehs name that has proved nothing and you've misinterpreted that as well. Do you know what Yahweh means? One of the definitions of Yahweh is to cause be, to bring into existence, to give life to. Please look it up. By acting out Yahwehs name Michael is giving life to the multiverse. That is something inherent to Yahweh. Lucifer enacting his name isnt the same thing, because their names mean and represent different things. This quote about Michael and Yahweh was supposed to support your argument about Lucifer enacting his name. It has failed. Lucifer is actually sounding like quite a good comic Synch no messing but think im gonna have to start buying it. It sounds quite deep. I like the use of religious imagery and references.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Ive already provided you evidence of it. Ive already provided evidence that explicitly states what Alpha and Omega means, but you still don’t believe it. That really shows that your in denial and your stubborn.

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You did show me a meaning for alpha and omega but you werent teaching me anything i didnt know Synch. Your explanation just fleshed out what i said before. I broke it down before and gave you something more prcise and relevant. It means and changes nothing, Phoenix is referred to as the same thing. Im not being stubborn at all. Youre just interpreting the meaning in terms of something that can bolster your argument, im just giving the definition.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Nope. It is quite clear that Phoenix created all life ONLY. She didn’t create everything in existence. Sorry GS, but you havent proven anything.
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Yes Phoenix did create and is one with all life. The Phoenix created the abstract such as eternity and infinity, but also some which are concepts embodied such as love and hate. Without these abstracts the things they embody would be absent from the reality they are absent from. They are those concepts.

I dont need to look up the meaning of primal force of creation. Few words have one definitive definition. Which is why words must be described and explained with multiple terms. Just because i have a definition which doesnt support yours which in turn bolsters your argument doesnt mean im being stubborn or that im inaccurate. Try looking things up from multiple sources, not just the first online dictionary that hits your eye after a google search.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh, I'm gonna kill you storm.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh, I'm gonna kill you storm.

Sorry i forgot lol. Its not that hard to follow. All of the quotes im using are surrounded by a line of quote signs then i respon underneath. Thats simple enough

It just takes up a LOT of room!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Im well aware of the meaning of primal. True. It means of first importance, it means the original. When applied to 'force of creation' It means the primary force responsible for creation. If other things spring up as a result of phoenixes work then that is irrelevant. Phoenix is known to have created the eternitys of the mutiverses, the living embodiment of universes, phoenix is known to be responsible for the creation of all of the abstracts which reside in each universe, phoenix is known to be the force that connected all the universes of the multiverse together. What you are saying has no effect on what ive said previously, it doesnt undermine it one bit. For example If there are beings within one of the phoenix created universe that decide to create alternate universes or solar systems, how does that have any relevance? I know of such beings who have such tendencies. There are the cube beings, the infinites, the celestials. However phoenix is the force primarily responsible for creation and nothing you say can or will change that. Especially when you factor in how phoenix is one with everything in creation as well. It is futile to try and nitpick at this area because it is fact.

Me? nitpicking? seriously, go read this post of yours again and see whose nitpicking. Ive given to you flatout what Primal Force of Creation means. Its just the force responsible for starting the creation of something. Its the first spark that triggers the creation of everything. It DID NOT create everything.

Phoenix started the creation by creating life, thats it. Anything created beyond that is NOT entirely her doing. Living Beings(including abstracts) for which Phoenix created would be responsible for that.

Ive even used the issue(X-Men The End) you gave me to back up my claims.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Cool. How you were talking about the whole situation earlier on confused me which resulted in that oversight, i could quote you so as to defend myself but im quite adult enough to admit i was wrong in that respect. Doesnt really change anything though. I never used that point until my last post it was far from a primary point as to why phoenix is greater than either of the brothers individually.

lol!! You make it seem like you’re the only who admits wrong. Go back to my previous posts and you’ll see one instance where I also admitted that Im wrong. I will admit Im wrong if Im really wrong. Its just that your arguments have flaws on it, its not the absolute truth as you seem to believe.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm It really isnt a contradiction Synch although you wish it was because then you'd actually have a point. The simple fact of the matter is phoenix is one with all of creation. That is not debatable its stated in the comics god knows how many times and this fact is accepted by all. Eternity is the living embodiment of a universe, a reality, he is attuned to all that has, is and will be going on within his confines. He is a but a segment within the greater whole that is the multiverse which phoenix is one with. Thats simple enough just accept it, its really not debatable.

???? Where’s the explanation? All you did was state the things that you’ve always stated before. I didn’t see any explanation as to why it wasn’t a contradiction. C’mon GS, don’t be shy. Explain to me thoroughly WHY its not a contradiction. Don’t just say “Phoenix is one with all of creation, that’s a fact, that’s not debatable”, because you and I know that’s not enough.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Youre really stretching here Synch and the simple fact of the matter is, that is how things are done in Marvel, it is as simple as that. Whether you so obviously more attuned to all things Dc like it or nor not that is just how it is. Without those abstracts, those concepts do not exist in any given reality those abstracts arent created within. Ive already given you proof of this already, stop nitpicking for the sake of bolstering your argument. It will change nothing, ask anyone else within these forums then come back here and i'll gladly let us move on without saying as much as a ""I told you so"" In marvel fundamental concepts have sentience and embody themselves as the previously mentioned abstracts. They are one and the same. When Death was killed, there was no death, when eternity was dispatched, thanos immediately became the living embodiment of the universe to fill the void , simple as. There no getting round that. Different to DC? Yes. But not any worse for it. Lets move on.

Exactly. Those concepts have sentience. That’s actually the reason why its not as impressive as creating the idea’s themselves which are not sentient. Creating life in comic book terms(and non-fiction stories), is common. A good amount of characters in comic books can create life like its nothing. However, it’s a rarity to have someone create ideas out of nowhere. Phoenix has to create life for concepts to exist. Phoenix has to create the Sentient Abstracts for concepts to exist. Pheonix cant create the idea’s themselves by herself.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Fair dos. I've already explained myself above. I wont try to blindly argue knowing when im wrong on something because im an adult and this point has little effect on my argument. Lucifer or Michael individually arent the primal force of creation because neither of them individually are responsible for both the start and maintenance of creation, and neither of them are one with creation. They are both just powerful beings who together can create a multiverse. Individually neither of them are a match for phoenix. Thats what ive been saying all along but your love for them clouds your minds despite that fact being quite apparent. As the primal force of creation, Phoenix began and is responsible for creation, her essence flows through it all and it is phoenix who ends all of creation in the natural scheme of things. It has already been proven that without Phoenix there is no creation it will all fade away. In Excalibur Rachel who was a host to some of Jeans phoenix essence allowed Galactus to try to exorcise the shard of phoenix that was within her. The result was that creation started fading away beginning with the stars in the firmament. That was just Rachel. The one true Phoenix is beyond either of the brothers individually.

lol!!! Another contradiction GS. You said that Lucifer and Michael were not responsible for the start and maintenance of the Creation, but then in the same paragraph you said that they can create Multiverses. lol!!! What do you think is Creation?

Creation = Multiverse.

So yes the brothers are responsible for the start and maintenance of a Creation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm No you have assumed that Lucifer is one with all of his multiverse. You have yet to prove that is the case despite what you believe. You have yet to prove how Lucifers multiverse compares in comparison to the proper one, the fact that he has one does not mean his essence flows through it just because the presences does in the proper multiverse. Youre a Lucifer fan so you should have access to the appropriate materials. Do you want to post a scan which shows the presences multiverse being made as well as the one where Lucifer is constructing his.

lol!!!! Why don’t you just go to a comic shop and look for Lucifer #26. There’s no scans in the internet and not everybody has a scan at home. So why don’t you do it yourself. You’re the one who’s asking for proof, not me.

If you go to your comic shop, you’ll see that Im right. You’ll see that in Lucifer #26, Lucifer and Michael created the DC Multiverse, a proper Multiverse.

Go on. Check it. You think Im just talking out of my ass?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Lucifer offering to accommodate every single person in the multiverse really is not proof enough. It says nothing about how his multiverse compares to the proper multiverse. Just like Franklin Richards pocket universe could accommodate alternate reality versions of everyone within the proper universe, however his pocket universe paled in comparison to a proper universe which he was incapable of creating and was also only temporary. See my point? Youve proved not a thing. A multiverse is made up of many, many universes. You have no idea of how Lucifers compares. For all we know the Presences one is far more complex and grand which of course would require a lot more power to construct. I used the U.S against the combined nations of the world to emphaisise the point that for all you know thats exactly how Lucifers multiverse could stack up against the Presences one. It might be able to accommodate everyone, but its far less complex and is on a far smaller scale. Lucifer didnt actually get everyone into his multiverse did he? He just offered. Another thing to take into consideration. For one who likes to come down on me for my heavily supported TOAA aspect argument, you sure like to base a lot of your arguments on assumption. I 'll remember that for next time.

Oh please, Franklin accomodating EVERYONE in his pocket universe? Or Franklin accomodating just the superheroes in his pocket universe. As far as I know, Franklin has never acommodated everyone(from normal people to cosmic entities) into his pocket universe. Unless you can prove it. Was that a Fantastic Four issue? Coz my friend next door is an F4 junkie. So I can just check it there.

And again Michael and Lucifer created the DC Multiverse, which is a proper Multiverse. What does that tell you?

And me making assumptions? Lol!!!! Yeah, someone who provides a number of comic issues to back up his arguments is making assumptions. Riiiiight!! 🙄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm i'll break it down once again. Lucifer means both "LightBringer" and "Morning Star" both of these names are used to refer to him in the comics. Lucifer may have created other things other than stars but whats your point. The quote you gave me was meant to show me that he was weaving his essence into his multiverse. That he was one with it. That was the point of you showing it. What he did before or after that is of no relevance, that quote was supposed to show him doing that. It did not. All it showed was the writers clever wordplay. "The Lightbringer" enacted (acted out) his name by bringing light. He was creating a sun in that quote. Simple as. If you can provide a quote which states or shows Lucifer during its creation weaved his essence into his multiverse or says that Lucifer is one with it then fair enough. But as it stands that point just doesnt cut it. Im not being rude here but im telling you straight up that i have knowledge of english literature to a high level. That quote just doesnt prove what you want it to. All its done is make me want to pick up more of that writers work and nothing else.

I hate to do this to you Synch but as for that point about Yahwehs name that has proved nothing and you've misinterpreted that as well. Do you know what Yahweh means? One of the definitions of Yahweh is to cause be, to bring into existence, to give life to. Please look it up. By acting out Yahwehs name Michael is giving life to the multiverse. That is something inherent to Yahweh. Lucifer enacting his name isnt the same thing, because their names mean and represent different things. This quote about Michael and Yahweh was supposed to support your argument about Lucifer enacting his name. It has failed.

Ok so by your logic about Yahweh = to bring existence and to give life, then that means that Phoenix shouldn’t be the one who “created” the Marvel Multiverse because her name isnt Yahweh.

Seriously, what you said just didn’t make sense. So just because the meaning of Yahweh is “to bring existence”, then that means that Lucifer(or anyone for that matter) cant do the same? No offense GS, but that’s just being narrow-minded right there.

Michael was able to write The Presence’s name into every atom of existence because the DC Multiverse was Presence’s property in the first place, that’s it(and now its Michael and Lucifer’s property since The Presence already left and assigned both of them to govern it). Lucifer’s Multiverse is Lucifer’s property, not the Presence. So it should be fitting that he should be one with it as well.

And as Ive said, existence will collapse if there’s no one holding it together, if there’s no essence coursing through it to keep it going.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm You did show me a meaning for alpha and omega but you werent teaching me anything i didnt know Synch. Your explanation just fleshed out what i said before. I broke it down before and gave you something more prcise and relevant. It means and changes nothing, Phoenix is referred to as the same thing. Im not being stubborn at all. Youre just interpreting the meaning in terms of something that can bolster your argument, im just giving the definition.

What definition? I was showing you an EVIDENCE that Lucifer is one with his Multiverse by defining what Alpha and Omega means which is what he described himself in Lucifer #15. But still you say that it changes nothing? Psshhhaaawww.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Lucifer is actually sounding like quite a good comic Synch no messing but think im gonna have to start buying it. It sounds quite deep. I like the use of religious imagery and references.

Im not just gonna tell you to buy it. Im gonna IMPLORE you to buy it. IM ON MY KNEES BEGGING FOR YOU AND EVERYBODY TO CONSIDER BUYING LUCIFER!!!!!!. And no. Im not just doing this because I want to prove that Im right about all that I argued here, but also because its one of the best books out today(It’s the best for me, btw). And yes it is deep GS. Although Ive always said that even though its has religious themes on it, it does not entirelly follow it. But anyway your gonna love it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Yes Phoenix did create and is one with all life. The Phoenix created the abstract such as eternity and infinity, but also some which are concepts embodied such as love and hate. Without these abstracts the things they embody would be absent from the reality they are absent from. They are those concepts.

Look above.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm I dont need to look up the meaning of primal force of creation. Few words have one definitive definition. Which is why words must be described and explained with multiple terms. Just because i have a definition which doesnt support yours which in turn bolsters your argument doesnt mean im being stubborn or that im inaccurate. Try looking things up from multiple sources, not just the first online dictionary that hits your eye after a google search.

Not really GS. I didn’t just looked at one online dictionary Ive searched for every online dictionary I can find(and even articles, mind you). But still, they havent provided a different meaning to it. They all the have same defintion as to what I defined here. Go check it out.

Originally posted by demigawd

We've never seen Infinity Being, either. What's your point? The IB was explained to be "all that is" (TOAA), and its "death" caused the "everything" as we know it. Does it conflict with the Phoenix origin? Yeah, but heck, it's Marvel...what can you do?

We can only speculate. IB could just be another aspect of TOAA like the Source to the Presence.

If TOAA and IB were the same being, LT would stated that to a misguided Warlock. Something to the lines of the power Warlock wielded is a minor portion of the power/being that LT represented.

let me sort this once and for all

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Me? nitpicking? seriously, go read this post of yours again and see whose nitpicking. Ive given to you flatout what Primal Force of Creation means. Its just the force responsible for starting the creation of something. Its the first spark that triggers the creation of everything. It DID NOT create everything.

Phoenix started the creation by creating life, thats it. Anything created beyond that is NOT entirely her doing. Living Beings(including abstracts) for which Phoenix created would be responsible for that.

Ive even used the issue(X-Men The End) you gave me to back up my claims.

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lol its you who's nitpicking. All that matters is that Phoenix created all life in creation, Phoenix created all the stars, planets, universes(which make up the multiverse) etc which she calls her "children" She created all of the abstracts. Eternity who is a living universe, Infinity the infinite space between his mass and so on. What else is left Synchy? Youre not trying to get me on the point that Phoenix didnt create everything single bit of life there is are you? For example if phoenix created amoeba which in turn went on over millions of years to evolve into the human race then she didnt create everything. Is that the point youre trying to make? LOL. If so now that is nitpicking and that is highly irrelevant.Of course if life evolves into other things from what phoenix initially created then thats cool and very obvious, so obvious i wouldnt have thought i needed to actually type it in. Phoenix is still responsible for their creation and phoenix still created the universes and abstracts the conditions for life to be formed later on and to evolve. I cant believe you were trying to make a point out of that, ( if you are) that changes nothing. No matter what life happens to evolve from what Phoenix initially created Phoenix is still one with it all, its essence still permeates all that is. When life forms reach a certain level of advancement on their own Phoenix is also the force that evolves them further until they reach the "ultimate potential" wherin they like Jean Grey already has, transcend the physical and surpass all of the abstracts and like jean become one with creation, it is at this point that they can enter the white hot room and phoenix ends creation with everything else in turn dissolving into the white hot room. If thats not what you were getting at then explain to me specifically what you think phoenix isnt responsible for.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""???? Where’s the explanation? All you did was state the things that you’ve always stated before. I didn’t see any explanation as to why it wasn’t a contradiction. C’mon GS, don’t be shy. Explain to me thoroughly WHY its not a contradiction. Don’t just say “Phoenix is one with all of creation, that’s a fact, that’s not debatable”, because you and I know that’s not enough.
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For me to answer exactly what you want to hear you have to tell me exactly where the contradiction is. Spell it out because in my eyes there isnt one. Ive asked for the opinions of other kmc members and i am not alone. Eternity being a living universe and being attuned to everything within himself and Phoenix being one with all that is in the multiverse, especially when you consider that eternity is but a creation of phoenix doesnt conflict with each other. Eternity is obviously one with everything in a universe because he is that universe, its his body. Think of Phoenix as the lifes blood that runs through his veins. Without Phoenix he would cease to be. Wheres the incompataibility in that? There isnt one. Therefore no contradiction.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Exactly. Those concepts have sentience. That’s actually the reason why its not as impressive as creating the idea’s themselves which are not sentient. Creating life in comic book terms(and non-fiction stories), is common. A good amount of characters in comic books can create life like its nothing. However, it’s a rarity to have someone create ideas out of nowhere. Phoenix has to create life for concepts to exist. Phoenix has to create the Sentient Abstracts for concepts to exist. Pheonix cant create the idea’s themselves by herself.

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Im sorry but thats just your opinion and it isnt based in fact therefore it has no relevance here. Im sure most people would say that its more impressive to create concepts that can embody themselves into corporeal forms than to just create the concepts themselves. Creating standard corporeal life is completely different to creating a concept, giving it senience and the ability to manifest itself in the physical world. So your example has done nothing it isnt relevant.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""lol!!! Another contradiction GS. You said that Lucifer and Michael were not responsible for the start and maintenance of the Creation, but then in the same paragraph you said that they can create Multiverses. lol!!! What do you think is Creation?

Creation = Multiverse.

So yes the brothers are responsible for the start and maintenance of a Creation.
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This is where you've come undone Synchy. I have always been careful to talk about the brothers individually, my argument if you go back and check was phoenix pitted against either of the brothers. I would have to read more Lucifer for me to argue about the brothers collectively Vs Phoenix but that as it stands is not what this is about. Neither of the brothers individually are responsible for the start of creation. Michael provided the matter, Lucifer shaped it. Theyre responsible together but thats irrelevant save it for another thread. Where is the evidence that the brothers maintain creation? Do they safeguard it against forces that only they have the power to deal with? Do they individually act as the life force for creation? You have yet to prove Lucifers essence runs through his multiverse.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""lol!!!! Why don’t you just go to a comic shop and look for Lucifer #26. There’s no scans in the internet and not everybody has a scan at home. So why don’t you do it yourself. You’re the one who’s asking for proof, not me.

If you go to your comic shop, you’ll see that Im right. You’ll see that in Lucifer #26, Lucifer and Michael created the DC Multiverse, a proper Multiverse.

Go on. Check it. You think Im just talking out of my ass?
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Well as the one making claims its forum etiquette that you provide the proof. Be it scans or a quote which actually proves what youre trying to claim, instead of a quote you've just misinterpreted as doing so. Youre also the Lucifer fan with access to his comics so it makes sense that you do provide proof. As it stands until you do your point about Lucifer being one with his multiverse as well as jointly creating it is left unproven and will be ignored.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Oh please, Franklin accomodating EVERYONE in his pocket universe? Or Franklin accomodating just the superheroes in his pocket universe. As far as I know, Franklin has never acommodated everyone(from normal people to cosmic entities) into his pocket universe. Unless you can prove it. Was that a Fantastic Four issue? Coz my friend next door is an F4 junkie. So I can just check it there.

And again Michael and Lucifer created the DC Multiverse, which is a proper Multiverse. What does that tell you?

And me making assumptions? Lol!!!! Yeah, someone who provides a number of comic issues to back up his arguments is making assumptions. Riiiiight!!
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It wasnt just the heroes in this pocket universe and who's to say that all the other planets of Franklins universe werent inhabited with alternate reality versions of people in the 616 universe. Surely if you can make assumptions on the relative scale and complexity of Lucifers multiverse all based on just an offer from Lucifer which wasnt even taken up then surely i can make assumptions to? Michael and Lucifer making the proper multiverse to impress Presence tells me nothing about howa disgruntled Lucifers multiverse would stand up in comparison. Especially when he struck out on his own.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Ok so by your logic about Yahweh = to bring existence and to give life, then that means that Phoenix shouldn’t be the one who “created” the Marvel Multiverse because her name isnt Yahweh.

Seriously, what you said just didn’t make sense. So just because the meaning of Yahweh is “to bring existence”, then that means that Lucifer(or anyone for that matter) cant do the same? No offense GS, but that’s just being narrow-minded right there.

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Seriously. I wanted to bang my head open when i read this.lol. Oh synchy *sigh* That isnt my logic at all. Thats just what you've interpreted from my clarifying of the whole "enacting" situation and my dismissing of your "lucifer is one with his multiverse" proof.

Your reason for showing me the lucifer quote was to prove that it showed Lucifer was putting his essence into his multiverse because he was enacting his name. You were wrong. You simply misunderstood your own evidence. You then told me about the Yahweh quote which was suppose to prove that because Michael was enacting Yahwehs name and Yahwehs essence in turn was binded to the matter of the multiverse, that Lucifers essence must have been bound to his own multiverse just because he enacted his own name to. You were incorrect. Because you never spotted the deeper meaning of the text you assumed that the act of enacting your name universally meant that essence was to be bound to something. Very wrong. But ive shown you the error of your ways. So lets move on shall we? Yahweh is the supreme being beyond the brothers he is supposed to be one with creation it is how he wanted his multiverse made so he gave Michael the power to bind his name into the matter which not only gave life to it but also made him one with it. It made the presences multiverse special. Who is to say that the Presences name must be enacted for a multiverse to live? For there to be life even. Presence has left and assigned everything to the brothers yet the multiverse hasnt died or been adversely affected has it? Lucifer has a multiverse yet you have no proof that he bound his essence to it, or even that that is required to give life to matter. Thats just another assumption of yours based on how Yahweh wanted his multiverse, the main multiverse created.

Phoenix represents and embodies life, it is one with life and works for and was itself created by TOAA. Phoenixes essence courses through the multiverse making her one with it and keeping it alive. Phoenix is also named after an aspect of TOAA which along with many other factors in the comics she is featured in, heavily suggest this is the case. So the fact that without Phoenix there would be no life in is because in Marvel Phoenix actually embodies creation and all life, that is how and why Phoenix is bound to it. Remember Yahweh doesnt exist in Marvel so what is or isnt required in Dc for life to exist is irrelevant to it and especially phoenix.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""What definition? I was showing you an EVIDENCE that Lucifer is one with his Multiverse by defining what Alpha and Omega means which is what he described himself in Lucifer #15. But still you say that it changes nothing? Psshhhaaawww.
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So Lucifer describes himself the "Alpha and omega" and you give me a passage from the bible a real world reference as proof of what he is. So youre saying that despite most people and comic books using the term to just mean the beginning and end of something (e.g Apocalypse always describes and is described as so) when Lucifer says it he must be what it says in the bible despite there being a variety of alternate definitions. Do you not see the double standards? Despite Phoenix calling herself, being referred to by others and captions and being shown by parallels and symbology to be an aspect of TOAA when i use real world references you say im not allowed to, it means nothing, it doesnt mean the power levels are comparable. Im not having that Synchy. That quote doesnt mean for one second that he is one with everything. That is far from conclusive evidence by your own logic. Other powerful cosmic beings Galactus, Thanos and so on have said it but they arent one with everything.Lucifer isnt shown to be one with everything, he isnt constantly referred to as being one with everything, he isnt solely responsible for the creation of a multiverse. Phoenix is though, she’s shown to be and shes also called the alpha and omega. Sorry your quote isnt good enough.

Originally posted by Beyonder
We can only speculate. IB could just be another aspect of TOAA like the Source to the Presence.

If TOAA and IB were the same being, LT would stated that to a misguided Warlock. Something to the lines of the power Warlock wielded is a minor portion of the power/being that LT represented.

True, it's speculation. But something being "all that is" is a pretty powerful statement. If not TOAA itself, it's definitely AT LEAST what other comics have claimed the PF to be.

Originally posted by kgkg
Infinity Being > PF

Why cause IG , LT > PF

Youre wrong here KG. Jean as Phoenix of the White Crown is beyond LT. I dont think you quite got the message of Xmen Forever after i told you to read it. Well basically the white hot room is the place where creation originates and the place where it ends after the end of all that is which is brought about in the natural scheme of things by phoenix. Basically creation will end when all beings in existence have evolved to the state of ultimate mutation a point where they transcend the physical, surpass all of the abstracts and become one with everything. At this point they have reached the ultimate potential, telekinetic godhood and they replace all of the abstracts and are second only to TOAA. When this occurs Phoenix ends all of creation and everything dissolves into the white hot room (the crown) where everyone is just waiting for themselves to arrive. Jean as the Phoenix of the white crown was the first to reach this state of ultimate potential, she has reached telekinetic godhood and as stated in the comics is beyond all of the abstracts such as LT, Eternity and so on as shown in Xmen Forever specifically which talks about this in detail, but also ive previously told you all in New Xmen, Endsong, Classic Xmen and Uncanny. Jean was the first and has a special relationship with the primal force of creation. Jeans union with primal force of creation created Phoenix. Its Jeans essence which makes others such as Rachel and Giraud(Galactic Guardians) a Phoenix host but Jean is the one true avatar. These hosts will likely go on to become true phoenixes in the event of their deaths. They die to be reborn that is the way of phoenix. However Jean is top of the hierarchy as the White Crown Phoenix.

why dont we just say the three lose badly ang get it overwitch.