Silver Surfer, Pheonix and Galactus vs All of Marvel and DC Universe

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""No. Lucifer doesnt need to enact his name to create life. He created his version of Adam and Eve without enacting his name, he created his version of Earth without enacting his name, he created everything without enacting his name. As Ive said over and over again, Lucifer enacted his name so that he could be ONE with his multiverse, not to create it.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Well you've yet to show a scan or quote that shows that Lucifer enacting his name makes him one with his multiverse, the life sustaining force of it. All you've shown is your misinterpretations which i've now clarified. You stand corrected. As for those creations, Adam and eve, earth etc. Lucifer shaped them from life enriched matter supplied by Michael lets set that straight. Lucifer never created everything without enacting his name. Surely that contradicts some of your previous "evidence". I think its been made quite clear now by myself that Lucifer enacted his name and brought light to his multiverse by shaping the matter Michael created ok?

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Think thoroughly what you just said and you'll find out the flaws in your post. First, you logic of Michael being the one sustaining Lucifer's Multiverse is wrong. Ask yourself, if Michael is the one who sustains life to Lucifer's Multiverse, then why isnt Lucifer's Multiverse collapsing? I mean Michael only stepped on Lucifer's Multiverse 2 times(one when Lucifer killed him and created his Multiverse and the other was when he warned Lucifer about The Presence's rule of "only 1 multi should exist"😉 in the WHOLE Lucifer Comic Book. He never went in it ever again. So again ask yourself how would a multiverse be sustained when the one who is sustaining it is RARELY seen in that multiverse? Michael has always been at The Presence's Multiverse and doesnt plan on leaving it.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

You dare criticise my logic? Could you tell me why on earth Michael would have to be standing in Lucifers multiverse to sustain it? Thats ridiculous, if he does indeed sustain it he does it through his energies not through physical contact Synchy so whether he's there all the time or not is irrelevant. Also at the end of the day Michaels demiurgic powers are the essence of God who's to say Presence doesnt have a hand in it. Lucifer doesnt have such powers by your own admission and if you've changed your tune then i want to see some evidence. Despite only wanting one multiverse God isnt exactly going to spitefully bring Lucifers multiverse crashing down on him when he's one of his favourites is he? Either way its certainly not Lucifer who sustains it.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Heck I dont even need to refute your flawed logic. I couldve just lied and say that you were right. Because even if Michael has the ability to sustain life and be one with everything while Lucifer doesnt, it still wouldnt mean anything because theyre still equal in power and will always be equal.

So ultimately, even if Phoenix has the ability to sustain life and be one with everything while Lucifer doesnt, it still doesnt mean that she's stronger than him.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

But then Phoenix is one with everything, she sustains life and she created the multiverse singlehandedly. A feat which places her above either Michael or Lucifer. Thats a feat they need to combine forces on to match. Thats what makes Phoenix stronger im afraid. Like i said in the beginning i dont think Phoenix can beat both of them, but individually most definitely.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Its a win-win situation for me GS.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Hardly the case son. You keep on deluding yourself. Its of no consequence to me. I know im right.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm At the end of the day all you need to do is check out the Xmen Forever mini to see that phoenix is responsible for making, maintaining and theeventual destruction of all of creation. Phoenix then begins the process all over again.

In F4 this year (i'll get back to you on the exact issue but it came out this year and its only July now) It stated that phoenix was responsible for the creation of the multiverse and the abstracts. That is very much everything. We've already established that we disagree over what is greater out of phoenix creating concepts in the multiverse who have the ability to manifest a physical form or lucifer just creating the concepts. Either way phoenix created those concepts just the same, so they along with all the multiverse is pretty much creation Synchy.

Plus theres the classic Xmen quotes where she calls the stars and planets her "children"

Ive already proved that Phoenix is one with everything so unless youre in denial i dont need to reiterate that to you as well i hope. Thats it. end of.

At the end of the day, you have yet to show me an issue where it EXPLICITLY says that Phoenix created everything in existence. That F4 issue hardly says anything.

Im gonna repeat myself again, Phoenix CANT create Concepts(Ideas) on her own. The fact that there are sentient abstracts in the MU supports that. In order for the ideas to take effect someone who embodies it must be made.

Sorry GS. Im just going by what Im seeing.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Michael doesnt start creation because creation is more than just matter. Michael contributes to the starting of creation. Lucifer shaping that matter into life and the multiverse starts creation. You see the difference? Neither of them individually can start creation its a joint effort.

lol!!!!! ok then, if Lucifer shaping practically EVERYTHING only starts creation then explain to me what comes next? Seriously, you didnt make any sense at all(its no surprise though). Lucifer #26 states that Michael provides the matter and Lucifer shapes it into the WHOLE Multiverse. I'll stress it again---> WHOLE MULTIVERSE. If shaping the whole creation only starts the creation 🤪, then what finishes creation?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Synchy i am not going to repeat myself. Phoenix is the primal force of creation responsible for the creation of all that is in marvel. All the physical, the concepts and so on. We've agreed to disagree on what feat is greater out of Phoenix and Lucifers creation of concepts. At the end of the day they both create concepts. Phoenixes concepts can just become physical if they wish. They are just variations of the same thing. If it was Lucifer who had created concepts that could give themselves physical bodies then you would be arguing the other way around. Be adult about this Synchy and lets move on. As is the case with both cases if neither Phoenix or Lucifer created those concepts then they wouldnt be present in their multiverses. End of.

And Im not going to repeat myself as well. Phoenix being the Primal Force of Creation STARTS creation by creating life. Sentient Abstracts then exist to embody concepts/ideas and then these idea takes effect. Phoenix CANT in anyway, create the ideas on her own.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Listen to what you're saying boy. Enacting your name while creating the multiverse is very very different to enacting your name to create the multiverse or enacting your name in order to become on with it. Unless you've got a scan or a quote which states that Lucifer achieved either of those things through enacting his name (which i doubt very much because it wouldnt make sense.) then ive dealt with this already. Lucifer did enact his name you've proven that with your quote its just that what that resulted in isnt what you hoped it did. I had to tell just what it entailed after you misinterpreted it and tried to post it as evidence for Lucifer becoming one with his multiverse and sustaining it with his life force(despite not even having such life giving powers by your own admission) just because during the making of the main mverse the Presences name was enacted which resulted in it being given life. Im sorry but whats so hard to understand. I know youre not stupid you know what the words mean. In your quote The Lightbringer enacted his name by creating stars. Simple as. Its really not debatable. If he enacted his name with different results then show me a scan or alternative quote along with issue number and we''l talk. Until then you're wrong and i think you realise that underneath it all.

No, you listen to yourself Phoenix Fanboy. Get your facts straight. Go to Lucifer #26. He doesnt need to enact his name for something to be created. Michael has already provided the matter. Lucifer will just shape that matter into pure will to shape/create life.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm But whats your point? Its true in both cases. During the creation of their two multiverses they enacted their names. Im not disagreeing with that Synchy. However what these enactions resulted in was different for both of them. Lucifers (LightBringer, LightBearer, MorningStar) enaction resulted in stars being made out of the matter Michael provided for him. Yahwehs( to bring into existence, to give life to, to cause to be) resulted in the multiverse being given life. Lucifer doesnt have life giving/sustaining powers he was given gods will. It isnt within his god given abilities to do so. That is why it was Michael (who was given such life giving abilities ) that provided the demiurgic (of the creator/god, to do with the making of creation) matter for both the main and Lucifers own multiverse.

And I will say this again, tell your theories to Mike Carey himself. If Mike Carey said in one instance that by enacting someone's name that someone became one with his Multiverse, then whats the difference when he said the same to Lucifer? Mike Carey shouldve made it clear if what your saying is true, because that is important information.

And Lucifer not having life giving/sustaining powers doesnt mean that he cant sustain life. Refer to Lucifer #30, when Jill Presto found out that The Basanos has made a realm for themselves. Jill, who wanted her baby to live a happy and normal life, became ONE with it(Jill never had life sustaining powers). She became one with it by simply WILLING it. She hoped that by being that realm herself, she would be able to take care of her baby even if she's not physically beside him. She said: "The trees, the grass, the animals, everything is me my love. Grow and grow and be one with me as well"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Ok let me sort this out once and for all. Listen up Synchy cos i dont wanna hear this nonsense again. I'll state what i mean clear as day. The act of enacting Presences name isnt what made Presence one with the his multiverse its the fact that Michael while using his demiurgic powers (of GOD, to do with the making of creation) enacted Yahwehs name on every atom of the multiverse. That embedded Presences essence to the multiverse at that sub-atomic level. The enacting isnt what made Presence one with the multiverse it was that. The enacting of Yahweh gave life to the matter after Michael had used his power at that sub-atomic level. Michael is the life giver. Just by using his demiurgic powers on the matter he created, the matter Lucifer would later shape into a multiverse Michael enacted Yahwehs name because he gave life to it. The demiurgic energies are Yahwehs essence that is what it means. Glad we've got that cleared up. I should have spelled it out from the beginning. I'll know for next time.

lol!!! The Demiurgic Energy is Yahweh's essence, ok true. But think about this for a minute. Why did Lucifer's Multiverse didnt start collapsing when the Presence left? I mean Lucy's Multiverse was made out of the Demiurgic Energy which is Yahweh's essence. So that means that Yahweh's essence should be in Lucy's turf as well, right? So by that logic, Lucifer's Multiverse shouldve started to collapse the moment The Presence left, just like DC Multiverse. But as far as Im concerned, Lucy's Multiverse was doing fine at that time. The Demons even held a party there for the Destruction of The Presence's home.

So why didnt Lucifer's Multiverse collapsed when The Presence left? Maybe because of the word "overwrite".

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Well you've yet to show a scan or quote that shows that Lucifer enacting his name makes him one with his multiverse, the life sustaining force of it. All you've shown is your misinterpretations which i've now clarified. You stand corrected. As for those creations, Adam and eve, earth etc. Lucifer shaped them from life enriched matter supplied by Michael lets set that straight. Lucifer never created everything without enacting his name. Surely that contradicts some of your previous "evidence". I think its been made quite clear now by myself that Lucifer enacted his name and brought light to his multiverse by shaping the matter Michael created ok?

And Ive already corrected myself on that, look above. And Lucifer shaped life by his PURE WILL, go to Lucifer #26, he doesnt need to enact his name to create something. Your coming into conclusions without even reading the material at hand.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm You dare criticise my logic? Could you tell me why on earth Michael would have to be standing in Lucifers multiverse to sustain it? Thats ridiculous, if he does indeed sustain it he does it through his energies not through physical contact Synchy so whether he's there all the time or not is irrelevant. Also at the end of the day Michaels demiurgic powers are the essence of God who's to say Presence doesnt have a hand in it. Lucifer doesnt have such powers by your own admission and if you've changed your tune then i want to see some evidence. Despite only wanting one multiverse God isnt exactly going to spitefully bring Lucifers multiverse crashing down on him when he's one of his favourites is he? Either way its certainly not Lucifer who sustains it.

HAHAHA!!!!!. Yes GS I dare criticise your logic. I just cant help it, you logic is just so flawed. Im afraid your logic of "Michael not needing to be in Lucy's Multiverse to sustain it" is wrong. The DC Multiverse, which is sustained by The Presence, started COLLAPSING the moment The Presence left that multiverse.

Seriously GS, whats up with you today? your bringin up flawed logics in our discussion. Thats not you.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Hardly the case son. You keep on deluding yourself. Its of no consequence to me. I know im right.

But then Phoenix is one with everything, she sustains life and she created the multiverse singlehandedly

Who's delusional again?

That is so lame Synchro its unbelievable. Its the early hours over here in the U.K and there are so many clarifications to be made that i dont know where the hell to start. So when im free in the afternoon i will tear this apart. Class commences at 12am GMT.

ok im gonna deal with this now gimme 30 mins

Originally posted by Synchro
HAHAHA!!!!!. Yes GS I dare criticise your logic. I just cant help it, you logic is just so flawed. Im afraid your logic of "Michael not needing to be in Lucy's Multiverse to sustain it" is wrong. The DC Multiverse, which is sustained by The Presence, started COLLAPSING the moment The Presence left that multiverse.

Seriously GS, whats up with you today? your bringin up flawed logics in our discussion. Thats not you.

Or is Michael seperate from Presence?

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""At the end of the day, you have yet to show me an issue where it EXPLICITLY says that Phoenix created everything in existence. That F4 issue hardly says anything.

Im gonna repeat myself again, Phoenix CANT create Concepts(Ideas) on her own. The fact that there are sentient abstracts in the MU supports that. In order for the ideas to take effect someone who embodies it must be made.

Sorry GS. Im just going by what Im seeing.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

At the end of the day you'd think being called THE primal force of creation is a bit of a hint wouldnt you? The fact that Phoenix is said to be responsible for the creation of all of the abstracts so when you factor in their alternate reality counterparts then thats pretty much the multiverse Synchy. The fact that Phoenix call the stars and planets her "children" and her saying that everything that exists has been "touched" by her. Also inaddition the fact that Phoenix is one with everything that is, the stars, the universes, the multiverse it kinda supports what mentions there have been of phoenix creating everything wouldnt you say Synchy? Also in Xmen Forever it is clearly shown that phoenix is the force that ends all that is and the force that makes everything again. The creation of all that is,the abstracts etc, the maintenance of creation, the evolvement of humanity to the point where they surpass the abstracts, the resultant end of creation and dissolution of everything into the white hot room, before creation is remade anew are all the work of the phoenix. I have stated many a time the appropriate issues so do a KG and go and check them out. Do you see KG on this thread anymore? No. His queries were settled once he did read them. Theyre easily available for download. Enlighten yourself. Im in the process of downloading some Lucifer issues at present. I cant wait to post scans of your supposed proof myself so i can point out to you exactly where you went wrong.

The fact that there are sentient abstracts in the MU just highlights the fact that there are many differences to the way Marvel and DC deal with things especially the cosmic hierarchy and concepts. The abstracts are the concepts personified. They are concepts which have the ability to embody themselves. Without the abstracts the things they embody wouldnt exist in Marvel creation. What you're saying is quite flawed. I could turn around and say Lucifer doesnt have the ability to create concepts capable of embodying themselves which he really doesnt because such a life giving act isnt part of his god given powers as has been shown as it is more than just a case of shaping matter supplied to him by someone else ok? Concepts which embody themselves is just a Marvel thing its something theyve always done. The only time we see these concepts is when they have chosen to give themselves a physical form. Other than that they are just the concepts same as the ones Lucifer creates in DC. The fact that Phoenix doesnt just create concepts out of nothing, but creates concepts that have the ability to embody themselves says a lot and as previously mentioned, most people would consider a higher feat. Either way i dont need to convince you about anything Synchy that is not my intention, i am merely responding to any incorrect information that i see posted on this thread because if left unanswered some people who dont know any better might actually assume that what youre saying is therefore right and what a travesty that would be. How presumptuous of you to think im going to this effort just to convince you. The fact that ive convinced the majority of people who have actually read this thread is good enough for me.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""lol!!!!! ok then, if Lucifer shaping practically EVERYTHING only starts creation then explain to me what comes next? Seriously, you didnt make any sense at all(its no surprise though). Lucifer #26 states that Michael provides the matter and Lucifer shapes it into the WHOLE Multiverse. I'll stress it again---> WHOLE MULTIVERSE. If shaping the whole creation only starts the creation , then what finishes creation?

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Dear oh dear. Where to begin. Creation is a cycle its an ongoing process. For the process to start Synchy creation needs to be fully shaped by that i mean its foundations need to be finished. From those foundations life in creation can evolve, suns can go supernova and any matter distributed can go on to form other celestial bodies, humanity can go on to form advanced civilisations which will eventually evolve in to higher beings(as is the case in Marvel) who will replace the abstracts and join phoenix and TOAA in the Crown(White Hot room) at which point Phoenix ends creation before remaking it. Lucifer having shaped the multiverse starts off creation, life then evolves before Lucifer (if he really is the omega) ends it all.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""And Im not going to repeat myself as well. Phoenix being the Primal Force of Creation STARTS creation by creating life. Sentient Abstracts then exist to embody concepts/ideas and then these idea takes effect. Phoenix CANT in anyway, create the ideas on her own.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Previously dealt with. I have no time for what is so clearly a lost cause.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""No, you listen to yourself Phoenix Fanboy. Get your facts straight. Go to Lucifer #26. He doesnt need to enact his name for something to be created. Michael has already provided the matter. Lucifer will just shape that matter into pure will to shape/create life.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Nothing i havent heard before why did you feel the need to tell me again when i havent disputed this? I know Michael does all the hard work and then Lucifer makes it into pretty shapes. Thats all old news.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""And I will say this again, tell your theories to Mike Carey himself. If Mike Carey said in one instance that by enacting someone's name that someone became one with his Multiverse, then whats the difference when he said the same to Lucifer? Mike Carey shouldve made it clear if what your saying is true, because that is important information.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

But Mike Carey never said that exactly did he Synchy? You being the Lucifer fan you are quickly interpreted it as that. When you say Mike Carey said this are you talking about in an interview or are you still talking about in the comic itself? If its a separate interview then post a link or a scan. If its the comic then this has been dealt with. The presences name was enacted which resulted in life being given to the multiverse. Michael was using his demiurgic powers(yahwehs essence, of god) at a sub atomic level on the matter that would be made into the Presences multiverse therefore Presence became one with it. His essence permeated the matter at a sub atomic level because of Michaels actions. The enaction of his name was that these demiurgic energies Yahwehs life giving essence gave life to this matter ok? Not that he became one with it that is not the enaction.

When Lucifer enacted his name the lightbringer shaped stars out of the matter provided to him by Michael. He brought light to the multiverse. I do not want to have to type out this explanation again Synch. Enacting presences name did not mean that presence became one with the multiverse. Michael made him one with it through his actions and his application of yahwehs essence at a sub atomic level. The enaction was that this essence gave life to the matter. We clear now?

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""And Lucifer not having life giving/sustaining powers doesnt mean that he cant sustain life. Refer to Lucifer #30, when Jill Presto found out that The Basanos has made a realm for themselves. Jill, who wanted her baby to live a happy and normal life, became ONE with it(Jill never had life sustaining powers). She became one with it by simply WILLING it. She hoped that by being that realm herself, she would be able to take care of her baby even if she's not physically beside him. She said: "The trees, the grass, the animals, everything is me my love. Grow and grow and be one with me as well"
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Im sorry but that is a lame example. Its really not good enough. For a start to use that as an example you would have to give the lowdown on Jill and her connection with Basanos as well as the circumstances that she became one with it. A scan would do nicely. Also becoming one with something doesnt mean you sustain it. Eternity is the embodiment of a universe he is the planets, stars, constellations and so on yet he doesnt sustain all life in the universe with his energies. That is still Phoenix. Without Phoenix all life in existence would come to an end. Galen became one with the essence of the universe to become Galactus yet he didnt sustain all life within the universe. He became mega powerful yeah and his perceptions increased but thats about it. Lucifer doesnt have life giving/sustaining powers. That is Michaels god given role. Michael could do it Lucifer couldnt. Together they can do what Phoenix does but individually phoenix is beyond them.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""lol!!! The Demiurgic Energy is Yahweh's essence, ok true. But think about this for a minute. Why did Lucifer's Multiverse didnt start collapsing when the Presence left? I mean Lucy's Multiverse was made out of the Demiurgic Energy which is Yahweh's essence. So that means that Yahweh's essence should be in Lucy's turf as well, right? So by that logic, Lucifer's Multiverse shouldve started to collapse the moment The Presence left, just like DC Multiverse. But as far as Im concerned, Lucy's Multiverse was doing fine at that time. The Demons even held a party there for the Destruction of The Presence's home.

So why didnt Lucifer's Multiverse collapsed when The Presence left? Maybe because of the word "overwrite".

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

I'll tell you why Synchy. Just for the simple reason that Lucifers multiverse had nothing to do with Presence its ruled over by Lucifer whereas the main one was governed by Presence. It was held together by his will it seems. When Presence left his multiverse he was leaving it under the care of Lucifer and Michael he cut all ties and left. Therefore without him there to will it to remain together it started collapsing. Lucifer has the Presences will as his God given power so his multiverse remained unaffected. Also another thing you could say is that Michael whose demiurgic powers gave life essence to both multiverses was there to save the main multiverse with those same powers and he was still alive for Lucifers multiverse to not be affected. Presences multiverse started collapsing because he cut all ties with and left it to the brothers yet Michael still had his powers which Presence is the source of anyway so that he could save it. Despite the powers coming from Presence and him no longer wanting anything to do with the main DC multiverse his essence was still employable by Michael to save the main multiverse because Michael wanted it to be so. Isnt Lucifer one of the Presences favourites as well? So why would the Presence spitefully withdraw his energies from Lucifers multiverse because he has decided to leave everything behind? With him leaving Michael was always there to save the main multiverse but the same couldnt be said about Lucifers. Therefore why would Presence do it knowing how much Lucifers multiverse means to him?

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""And Ive already corrected myself on that, look above. And Lucifer shaped life by his PURE WILL, go to Lucifer #26, he doesnt need to enact his name to create something. Your coming into conclusions without even reading the material at hand.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Im glad you did as i knew you would eventually have to. It was only a matter of time. I know Lucifer shaped the multiverse with his will. Putting it in bold isnt going to impress me anymore.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""HAHAHA!!!!!. Yes GS I dare criticise your logic. I just cant help it, you logic is just so flawed. Im afraid your logic of "Michael not needing to be in Lucy's Multiverse to sustain it" is wrong. The DC Multiverse, which is sustained by The Presence, started COLLAPSING the moment The Presence left that multiverse.

Seriously GS, whats up with you today? your bringin up flawed logics in our discussion. Thats not you.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Ive clarified the mess of an interpretation you made of your own treasured Lucifer comics above. How embarassing. I feel for you really i do. My logic i think you'll find is just fine. Yours however is in need of some major reconstructive work. I'll happily help you out in that area.

""""""""Who's delusional again?""""""""""

Pot calling the kettle black comes to mind.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
""""""""Who's delusional again?""""""""""

Pot calling the kettle black comes to mind.

I am back GS and I have read all those cosmic , and have scans as well

uncanny xmen 133 in a conversation with banshee Moira and in uncanny xmen 135 in a convo with Angel, Moira and Prof X respectively both refer to Phoenix as the "ultimate potential"

Remember I want proof of > Lt nothing else

Pg 19 of Xmen forever #1 Prosh gathers a team of mutants together to talk about a threat humanity faces. Prosh talks of how in the future humanity will evolve to the point where it will aurpass and in turn replace the abstracts. As he says this prosh creates an image of the abstracts he's talking about. Included are Eternity, Infinity, Chaos and Order and so on. But most importantly The Living Tribunal. Prosh says that the danger is that these "fundamental forces" will not allow themselves to be replaced and will act to stop humanity from progressing any further. Prosh goes on to say that Jean as Phoenix has already "touched these fundamental forces on their level"

Doesn’t apply Order , Chaos , LT like I said they are beyond that --------- any comic you read

Order and Chaos exist is the nexus of all reality

They might have been there just for show , because a Universe is part of the grand scheme.

Xmen Forever #3 pg 6 Prosh again talks of humanity evolving to replace the abstracts. Jeans consciousness is transported to inhabit her body in the classic xmen days the first roster when she was just marvel girl. She sneaks into Xaviers office and uncovers a file talking of how she has ""Omega(the last) Level Mutant abilities"" and the files talk of how these abilities are connected with an ""ultimate threat"" Prof X says according to Fred Duncan (X Cutioner) however he says that he prefers to just think about the unlimited potential these abilities entail. On the next page is a picture of the words "" unlimited potential"" in bold they dominate the page and below them is a picture of all the abstracts LT included.

Again having a picture of LT shows what? That Pho is better than LT.

remember the X-men Forever series was talking about the end of the universe etc ,,, LT was not with the abstract , he is beyond them , he is a judge of all that is.

In issue 6 the Stranger calls Jean the touchstone of his plans. He plans to use Phoenix to become the supreme being over all of the other abstracts. The Stranger tells Jean how her time as Phoenix scared the other abstracts and how it caused them to focus on the future problem of humanity.

Order, and Chaos are there , they exist in the nexus all of reality beyond universes , the fabric of all that is.

Still doesn't show Pho > LT

Stranger shows Jean how humanity is going to evolve to replace the abstracts by manifesting an image of a D.NA chain slowly turning into eternity.

Strange shows how Humans will one day because eternity, and the survivors will be the new Galactus of that universe.( I explain forever for you it’s talking about the universe)

like said LT is beyond all that shit , he doesn't care about the universe in fact there were many times he was about to annihilate it.

Still doesn't show Pho > LT

All Forever shows is that Pho will help Human carry on the universal process of life.
Universe after universe while the abstract die. (but I have shown why this is false for most of the abstract like Order , Chaos)

Eternity later appears to Jean telling her that the Stranger is wrong and that there will be no intervention from any of the abstracts , because they all accept their fate. They accept that they will eventually be replaced by humanity as and when it reaches its potential.

Eternity is , Stranger is, and other universal abstract yes.

Abstract like Order, Chaos, In-betweer , Death all are multiversal so that end of the universe won't effect them catch of drift.

Still doesn't show Pho > LT

In New Xmen 128 Jean is talking with the professor and tells him of her increasing telekinetic sensitivity. Jeans consciousness is starting to permeate matter, through her powers she is becoming one with it. Professor Xavier tells Jean to levitate a dining set. She calls this test "beginner telekinesis". She misunderstood. She levitates the set and as she does so Prof X touches one of the forks. She is shocked when she finds that she can feel his pulse through the fork. Prof X then tells her that "telekinetic sensitivity this extremem is known as the "manifestation of the phoenix" by Shi'ar neuro-mystical surgeons". Jeans phoenix persona then takes over and she talks of a "destined disinfection" that is why jean is manifesting phoenix again and we find out later that its for good. Jean as Phoenix is reaches "the ultimate potential", she was here in this scenen starting to achieve again telekinetic godhood wherein her consciouness becomes one with all. Her essence permeates matter. That is the ultimate mutation. Its not just something Marvel made up its actually surprise surprise a term found in Kaballah lol.

Telekinetic godhood is good but what does LT care? I want proof of Pho > LT not telekinetic godhood shit

New Xmen 151-154 Jean is born again 150 years into our plane of reality to perform the destined disinfection. Sublime plans to obtain some of her blood so that he can reach the "ultimate potential" so that he can achieve "telekinetic godhood" and be supreme over all. All of these phrases are used by him. He talks of how all creation would be his. When he gets a sample of the phoenix blood and so samples telekinetic godhood he talks of how all life is his.

Creation of what universe ? Multiverse?

LT is beyond the abstract that govern the universe.

All the X-men forever was trying to show what is the fate of the universe.

LT doesn't give a damn, like I said he is beyond the universe and abstract and effect on universes.

And neither should most abstract.

In issue 154 the end of the Here Comes Tomorrow arc(151 - 154) Quentin Quire an omega mutant like Jean who was shown in New Xmen to be evolving, he talked of being able to traverse the physical, he talked of going into different rooms ( which hinted at the white hot room) This happened back around New Xmen 125 at the end of the riot story arc. This all mirrored Jeans transformation into phoenix where she transcended the physical, became an entity of pure thought, one with everything, before reforming as phoenix. After Jean finished her disinfection in the future she returned to the white hot room where she saw Quentin Quire. He had evolved into a phoenix.

You're wrong KG because theres a difference between reaching your own ultimate potential and reaching THE ultimate potential. In New Xmen Phoenix is called THE ultimate potential and also THE ultimate mutation. This isnt a thing marvel has made up its a kaballah theory. That we all will eventually evolve into higher beings and merge with creation transcending all. At that point we all enter the white hot room and all creation dissolves into it as well.

Jean became Phoenix when her body burned up and she became an entity of pure thought. She became one with everything and then her body as she said and was was shown in Uncanny 101. She then recorporated herself as Phoenix.

The ultimate psi potential. Which equals telekinetic godhood which gives her power over all. The ultimate mutation. Asstated in New Xmen basically making her God.

Xmen forever talked of humans evolving into entities beyond all of the abstracts. LT is an abstract the top one. Jean as Phoenix has already reached this state and that was why she was the touchstone of Strangers plans. Power over creation was hers and Stranger intended to use this power to surpass all of the abstracts as stated in the comic.

LT was one of the abstracts shown as being worried about getting replaced by this final stage of evolution that humanity will reach. Simple as. It cant be argued with KG. New Xmen showed that another example of this mutation occurring. It happened to Quentin Quire. He too became a Phoenix. As foreseen in XM Forever humans are all starting to evolve into this ultimate mutation that is beyond all but God. This is supported by what the watcher said of phoenix being second only to TOAA.

Its as simple as that.

You're wrong KG because theres a difference between reaching your own ultimate potential and reaching THE ultimate potential. In New Xmen Phoenix is called THE ultimate potential and also THE ultimate mutation. This isnt a thing marvel has made up its a kaballah theory. That we all will eventually evolve into higher beings and merge with creation transcending all. At that point we all enter the white hot room and all creation dissolves into it as well.

Doesn’t man shit --------- how this is above LT is beyond me.

Jean became Phoenix when her body burned up and she became an entity of pure thought. She became one with everything and then her body as she said and was was shown in Uncanny 101. She then recorporated herself as Phoenix.

One with everything, everything there is lots of everything, everything in the universe, everything in the Multiverse , Everything on earth what(what is it)? What issue and page number (if she because everything in the multiverse)

The ultimate psi potential. Which equals telekinetic godhood which gives her power over all. The ultimate mutation. Asstated in New Xmen basically making her God.

Cosmic Cubes , IG , etc were all given such names

Xmen forever talked of humans evolving into entities beyond all of the abstracts. LT is an abstract the top one. Jean as Phoenix has already reached this state and that was why she was the touchstone of Strangers plans. Power over creation was hers and Stranger intended to use this power to surpass all of the abstracts as stated in the comic.

I explain this already , what don’t you get

LT > beyond universe -------- End of universe doesn't matter
Order > same
Chaos > same
Death > same
Etc

Eternity and other will be affected, that comic is flawed, and the pictures are just for show.

LT was one of the abstracts shown as being worried about getting replaced by this final stage of evolution that humanity will reach. Simple as. It cant be argued with KG. New Xmen showed that another example of this mutation occurring. It happened to Quentin Quire. He too became a Phoenix. As foreseen in XM Forever humans are all starting to evolve into this ultimate mutation that is beyond all but God. This is supported by what the watcher said of phoenix being second only to TOAA.

Watcher said that MM is > everyone in the Multiverse even the cubes ones lol , watchers is not good enough.

Lt has been called #1 many times by greater beings than Watcher

Do you know what the definition of abstract is? Dont think of it as a group like xmen or whatever think of it as a category of entity. LT is very well an abstract. The comic showed that he was one of the ones due to get replaced, in fear of being replaced by the final evolution of humanity. That final evolution of humanity is phoenix. End of.

Destruction of universes, destruction of realities is nothing to phoenix that is LT's job. Phoenixes job is to make sure that nothing gets in the way of the cycle of creation. Things such as the M'kraan crystal which ends all of creation. The infinity Gauntlet and HOTU didnt affect anything but a single reality. Lt deals with universal balance and so on. Phoenix only ever manifests itself to perform an act of micro-surgery from within the multiverse and then its physical body dies so that its essence dissolves back into the white hot room. It is not a hurdle to overcome in the cosmic hierarchy it is just a force that is creation, that is dedicated to creation.

Telekinetic godhood is power over all. It is the ultimate power there is nothing besides god that is beyond it. It isnt just something marvel made up as ive said already.

If you look through this thread you will find quotes and references that deal with your queries. PM me if you cant find them. I no longer need to debate on this topic because its old news. Phoenix is the ultimate mutation that all things will eventually change into. New Xmen supported this by Quentin Quire evolving into a phoenix. All the abstracts get replaced by this stage of humanity LT included as shown by Xmen forever.

KG creation is everything outside of the white hot room. Xmen forever closely mirrored the kaballah theory i talked of earlier. With all craetion ending after humanity evolving and nothing surviving of the last multiverse into the new one except the evolved humanity who collect in the white hot room. Nothing.

None of what i said is just opinion. Its shown in the comics. Which you have access to. LT gets replaced as do the other abstracts by the ultimate mutation that is Phoenix.

Do you know what the definition of abstract is? Dont think of it as a group like xmen or whatever think of it as a category of entity. LT is very well an abstract. The comic showed that he was one of the ones due to get replaced, in fear of being replaced by the final evolution of humanity. That final evolution of humanity is phoenix. End of.

If universe dies, Order, chaos, Lt get replaces , wrong ------ this is not an opinion.

Order and Choas exist in the nexus of all reality buddy , LT , order , Chaos were at the gateway of all the portal to universes , and the effect on the multiverse effected order , and chaos

Your wrong GS

all forever shows is pictures , after the universe dies it will replace abstract that is false and contradicts all other sources like i said.

End of universe doesn't mean end of Order, Chaos without chaos and order , you can't have the multiverse.

Destruction of universes, destruction of realities is nothing to phoenix that is LT's job. Phoenixes job is to make sure that nothing gets in the way of the cycle of creation. Things such as the M'kraan crystal which ends all of creation. The infinity Gauntlet and HOTU didnt affect anything but a single reality. Lt deals with universal balance and so on. Phoenix only ever manifests itself to perform an act of micro-surgery from within the multiverse and then its physical body dies so that its essence dissolves back into the white hot room. It is not a hurdle to overcome in the cosmic hierarchy it is just a force that is creation, that is dedicated to creation.

Lt has death with all multiversal threat

what do you think Order and Chaos are therefore.

Telekinetic godhood is power over all. It is the ultimate power there is nothing besides god that is beyond it. It isnt just something marvel made up as ive said already.

If you look through this thread you will find quotes and references that deal with your queries. PM me if you cant find them. I no longer need to debate on this topic because its old news. Phoenix is the ultimate mutation that all things will eventually change into. New Xmen supported this by Quentin Quire evolving into a phoenix. All the abstracts get replaced by this stage of humanity LT included as shown by Xmen forever.

Lt not an abstract and you haven't proven shit

Forever is contriction , and shows punch of pictures that's all

KG creation is everything outside of the white hot room. Xmen forever closely mirrored the kaballah theory i talked of earlier. With all craetion ending after humanity evolving and nothing surviving of the last multiverse into the new one except the evolved humanity who collect in the white hot room. Nothing.

like i said you can have you opinion that's cool

but so far LT > Pho

Lt has been second to be second to God.

and say he serve only God no one , answers to now one.

He was the second in power to god until the evolution of Jean Grey where she bonded with all of creation and became phoenix. That action placed her above LT as supported by the watchers comments and as shown to be the case in both Xmen Forever and New Xmen. Times change KG what can i say.

A pictures nothing now is it? At the end of the day i dont need to argue. Its there in comic book form and whether you agree with it or not is of no relevance. LT is shown to be one of the abstracts due to get replaced by the ultimate mutation that is phoenix. END OF.

Ive just noticed something i hadnt seen before. Theres a second picture as well of all the abstracts kneeling before the Stranger after he's got this phoenix power and guess what> LT's kneeling as well!!! LOL

Xmen forever issue 6 pg 24.

Again i say. END OF!!

He was the second in power to god until the evolution of Jean Grey where she bonded with all of creation and became phoenix. That action placed her above LT as supported by the watchers comments and as shown to be the case in both Xmen Forever and New Xmen. Times change KG what can i say.

lol , your opinion replace by what the universe ( read other comics order , and chaos exit the in nexus)

so when the universe dies LT , Chaos , and Order will be replace don't make me laugh

Ive just noticed something i hadnt seen before. Theres a second picture as well of all the abstracts kneeling before the Stranger after he's got this phoenix power and guess what> LT's kneeling as well!!! LOL Xmen forever issue 6 pg 24.

I don't see LT in issue 6 , pictures means nothing

It doesn't

Here is what Forever says : Humans will replace the abstract lol

and from that your love for phoenix came up Pho > LT

Originally posted by kgkg
lol , your opinion replace by what the universe ( read other comics order , and chaos exit the in nexus)

so when the universe dies LT , Chaos , and Order will be replace don't make me laugh

I don't see LT in issue 6 , pictures means nothing

It doesn't

Here is what Forever says : Humans will replace the abstract lol

and from that your love for phoenix came up Pho > LT

No KG. Very wrong you're misunderstanding once again so as a friend i'll spell it out to you. Phoenix is Jean. It is the evolved state of Jean. Phoenix is the ultimate mutation that all humanity will eventually turn into. In Xmen forever Jean was already at that stage she was the first therefore the Stranger wanted to use her to start the process early. The abstracts would all get replaced, creation would end and he would come out on top.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""That's jsut contricts my freind

If universe dies, Order, chaos, Lt get replaces , wrong ------ this is not an opinion.

Order and Choas exist in the nexus of all reality buddy , LT , order , Chaos were at the gateway of all the portal to universes , and the effect on the multiverse effected order , and chaos
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

KG as for your Order and Chaos point. With HOTU which was greater than LT Thanos took out LT, Order, Chaos and so on yet he only brought a single reality to an end. As shown by the fact that Adam Warlock was in another dimension. So your point is invalid.

I missed arguing with you KG. Id almost forgotten how good it felt to win so soundly.

No KG. Very wrong you're misunderstanding once again so as a friend i'll spell it out to you. Phoenix is Jean. It is the evolved state of Jean. Phoenix is the ultimate mutation that all humanity will eventually turn into. In Xmen forever Jean was already at that stage she was the first therefore the Stranger wanted to use her to start the process early. The abstracts would all get replaced, creation would end and he would come out on top.

And how will a universe Effect LT (order, chaos)--------- ohh boy GS

KG as for your Order and Chaos point. With HOTU which was greater than LT Thanos took out LT, Order, Chaos and so on yet he only brought a single reality to an end. As shown by the fact that Adam Warlock was in another dimension. So your point is invalid.

HOTU = All there is ( LT , Choas , order , death all multiversal level)

read Thanos quest 🙂

He brought a single reality to an end , else ( only death , and adam were not effect by it ) since Thanos didn't know of it , he couldn't have destoyed that to.

Again End of Universe = end of LT---------------------- that's just funny