Goku v. Superman

Originally posted by jinzin
by whom, where and when?

actually they make perfect sense if you understand basic mathematical funedmentals.. 😕

again.. you can use simple mathematics to figure out that a blast from a 1,000 PL goku did x amount of damage.. then multiply the by a PL of 1 million (or numerically by 1,000 rather since 1,000x1,000 is the equivolent..) .... then use that as a calculation for what a character can do at that power.. then muliply that by a PL of 20 million... solar system doesn't look so tough after that...

exactly so why is it only relivent to majin vegeta? 🙄

who said I was hating on wonder woman? it's a known fact that her darksied and orion give superman fits in a fight.. goku's faster and more powerful (aside from omega beams) than any of them.. not to mention he's well above the 100 ton class mark...

You didn't answer my question. Are the power levels scaled linearly? Exponentially? Logarithmically?

The closest you got was this:

again.. you can use simple mathematics to figure out that a blast from a 1,000 PL goku did x amount of damage.. then multiply the by a PL of 1 million (or numerically by 1,000 rather since 1,000x1,000 is the equivolent..) .... then use that as a calculation for what a character can do at that power.. then muliply that by a PL of 20 million... solar system doesn't look so tough after that...

And if you think that qualifies for my question, you need to take a class of higher mathematics, now.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You didn't answer my question. Are the power levels scaled linearly? Exponentially? Logarithmically?

The closest you got was this:

And if you think that qualifies for my question, you need to take a class of higher mathematics, now.

Well, a normal guy with a shotgun is 5. SSJ Goku is what? Off the top of my head something like 15 mil. So he's three million times the efficiency of a farmer with a shotgun. This is at the height of his power in the Freeza saga at least. I haven't seen any power levels past that, since, as Illustrious said, no one used scouters.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Well, a normal guy with a shotgun is 5. SSJ Goku is what? Off the top of my head something like 15 mil. So he's three million times the efficiency of a farmer with a shotgun. This is at the height of his power in the Freeza saga at least. I haven't seen any power levels past that, since, as Illustrious said, no one used scouters.

Yes I guess you could say that.....but the proble is when Ki Blast come in the Power Levels get Stronger...so a Kame Hame Ha might actually kill someone with a much higher Power Level...or it might not...but Fighting Ability wise you can compare them..yes...

True, but these are attacks that require energy (ki or otherwise, like the spirit bomb uses all living things' ki I think) , build up time and more. Goku can do some insta-blasts but so can Vegeta. I don't recall either being able to do enough required to KO Supes. And since we don't have hardnailed proof, Supes is winning by a clear margin because he DOES have proof. That may not be cool but it's the name of the game. In a court of law, the side with the most evidence in their favor usually wins outright.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
True, but these are attacks that require energy (ki or otherwise, like the spirit bomb uses all living things' ki I think) , build up time and more. Goku can do some insta-blasts but so can Vegeta. I don't recall either being able to do enough required to KO Supes. And since we don't have hardnailed proof, Supes is winning by a clear margin because he DOES have proof. That may not be cool but it's the name of the game. In a court of law, the side with the most evidence in their favor usually wins outright.

We are not in a Court though..and it'S not a fact...it's a chance......Goku might be able to defeat Supes..and Supes might be able to defeat Goku....we don't really know...and I still have to see a Pun ch of Supes that can Knock Out Goku....

Originally posted by Bardock42
We are not in a Court though..and it'S not a fact...it's a chance......Goku might be able to defeat Supes..and Supes might be able to defeat Goku....we don't really know...and I still have to see a Pun ch of Supes that can Knock Out Goku....

Oh stop being daft. Do you want to be in court? We're in a debate, so unless you feel the need to toss aside all logic and reason just so you can win, we still operate under the same conventions.

I do not want to win..there is no winnign or losing in a debate....I can see how the superman portrayed by you is a match for Goku...but I believe..and there was evidence posted here that Goku might be in the same League as Superman too...

Being in the same league does not mean beating, as you claim.

A lot of the DBZ supporters seem to like to point out inconsistencies with Superman so they have a better chance. They seem to forget that DBZ has even greater inconsistencies, but instead use an arbitrary system of "power level" to cover it up.

If that was the case, I should use the DCU strength levels to justify that, but that argument, again, goes no where.

It's simply then, either you use proof, or you go on fanboy debates for eternity. We brought our proof, where's yours?

Originally posted by Illustrious
Being in the same league does not mean beating, as you claim.

A lot of the DBZ supporters seem to like to point out inconsistencies with Superman so they have a better chance. They seem to forget that DBZ has even greater inconsistencies, but instead use an arbitrary system of "power level" to cover it up.

If that was the case, I should use the DCU strength levels to justify that, but that argument, again, goes no where.

It's simply then, either you use proof, or you go on fanboy debates for eternity. We brought our proof, where's yours?

Sorry to dissapoint you btu I never Claied that Goku can beat him...I said it was very much a possibility.....

There are jsut as big inconsistencies in the DCU though...maybe even more....

Wll...go on..brin the "DCU Strength" System......

I gave evidence for mys site..I stated it and I even posted Pics....this happened in the Buu thread though...

Originally posted by Bardock42
I do not want to win..there is no winnign or losing in a debate....I can see how the superman portrayed by you is a match for Goku...but I believe..and there was evidence posted here that Goku might be in the same League as Superman too...

I disagree. So far the Goku support havn't proven that he's faster, stronger, more durable, or even have the stamina to even compete with Superman at all. 😕

Especially not the stamina part.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Especially not the stamina part.

Indeed!

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9105/4210013xf.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4404/4210111xa.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9084/4211015mx.gif

Goku could barely go a few rounds in ssj3, it takes up way too much energy. I don't even think he'll be able to take a punch against Superman in that form anyways, and if it's any other transformation, he'll be out in a second.

something else I just found interesting.. while playing around with frieza goku stops and holds up against a boulder bigger than the one below.. the one below weighs over 400 tons.. guess goku was clearly over a 400 ton lifter when he got out of his 100 times earths' gravity training.. hmmmmm... we already know that being in the 100 ton class is enough to stagger supes with punches... interesting..

Originally posted by jinzin
something else I just found interesting.. while playing around with frieza goku stops and holds up against a boulder bigger than the one below.. the one below weighs over 400 tons.. guess goku was clearly over a 400 ton lifter when he got out of his 100 times earths' gravity training.. hmmmmm... we already know that being in the 100 ton class is enough to stagger supes with punches... interesting..

Yeah we know that it's going to take alot more than moutain moving strength to even have Superman notice the hits.

http://anime.myfavoritegames.com/dragonball-z/Media/Video_Clips/DBZ-Video08.mov

Goku doesn't have enough punching power to even stop Superman. 🙂

Even ten years ago he was able to take punching power greater than Goku's.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9327/10172005123333am3tt.jpg

And was capable of punching through thick metal deep under ground while being contained too.

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3561/10172005123720am7jb.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/6017/10172005123825am0fh.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/1222/10172005123913am4tf.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/5054/10172005124007am6cd.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/5589/10172005124056am4tj.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4072/10172005124205am1de.jpg

And the punching power only became much greater as the fight went on. 😄

Oh and that bolder isn't close to being 400tons. 😕

Originally posted by jinzin
we already know that being in the 100 ton class is enough to stagger supes with punches... interesting..

😆 what a load of bull.

You're desperately grasping at straws in order to depower supes so that you don't have to prove Goku is on par with superman.

"HEY I know! Instead of actually trying to have Goku match superman's proven level, why don't we lower Superman to Goku's level!" 😄

Problem with your logic there bucko, Superman moved effortlessly in a DOUBLE BLACK HOLE. . . Goku can lift 400 tons after 100 times gravity?

What would Superman's strength level be for being in a DOUBLE BLACK HOLE?

400 tons. 😆

100 tons is enough to stagger Superman. hysterical

Originally posted by dvampire
Yeah we know that it's going to take alot more than moutain moving strength to even have Superman notice the hits.

http://anime.myfavoritegames.com/dragonball-z/Media/Video_Clips/DBZ-Video08.mov

Goku doesn't have enough punching power to even stop Superman. 🙂

Even ten years ago he was able to take punching power greater than Goku's.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9327/10172005123333am3tt.jpg

And was capable of punching through thick metal deep under ground while being contained too.

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3561/10172005123720am7jb.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/6017/10172005123825am0fh.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/1222/10172005123913am4tf.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/5054/10172005124007am6cd.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/5589/10172005124056am4tj.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4072/10172005124205am1de.jpg

And the punching power only became much greater as the fight went on. 😄

Oh and that bolder isn't close to being 400tons. 😕

dude you're not going to find someone on this board more knowledgeable about doomsday than me... but the fact is that superman is indeed staggered by punches of that strength range... sorry but it's the damned truth...

and that doomsday you showed was comparatively weaker (by leagues) than the one we came to know.. sure supes stood up to ONE hit from doomsday like that.. why don't you show what happened IMEDIATELY after that? is it that you're scared of people knowing the truth or what?

dd side kicked him (yeah a friggin kunf fu side kick) and sent superman through a house knocking the wind out of him.......

and yes that boulder in the pic was measured.. it's 400 and 60 damned tons.. sorry to burst your bubble....

Originally posted by Creshosk
😆 what a load of bull.

You're desperately grasping at straws in order to depower supes so that you don't have to prove Goku is on par with superman.

"HEY I know! Instead of actually trying to have Goku match superman's proven level, why don't we lower Superman to Goku's level!" 😄

Problem with your logic there bucko, Superman moved effortlessly in a DOUBLE BLACK HOLE. . . Goku can lift 400 tons after 100 times gravity?

What would Superman's strength level be for being in a DOUBLE BLACK HOLE?

400 tons. 😆

100 tons is enough to stagger Superman. hysterical

dude.. that's pretty damned sad.. there's no need for such disrespect...what happened to you?

grasping for straws? not at all.. I just think that goku's physical strength and durability are being completely undermined here... I was simply making a point on goku's strength.. not saying he was going to be winning by out lifting/slugging supes... just thought I was bringing something to the table that hadn't been addressed before...

now...you keep assuming people to be dragging down superman to a level less than what he is.. but that's not the case.. we're using evidence on the character, how we've seen him presented.. I'm sorry but if he's presented at a level less than how you want him to be, that doesn't make it any less true when it's done.. and frequently at that...

what makes him escaping a black hole any more credible than any other PIS? I'm not trying to use the pis argument here.. all I'm saying is that you should probably consider that superman isn't about to do that 9 out of 10 times or anything.... no more than logan taking a nuke...

from what I've seen of supes, that's not his standard of speed and power... like I said.. superman gets punched by the likes of darksied, orion, lobo, batman,and etrigan, and on top of that, he was staggered by a bunch of puny lazers from some pathetic war worlders... you can't blame people for thinking that he might succumb again.. he's getting punched in the face every week.. he doesn't escape black holes every week..... there's a huge difference in consistency there..

now I know you're using JUST empiricle knowledge here. you but have to consider the fact that the power level sysytem is a linear system man.. it's self evident.. and bardock explained it perfectly...

if you're going to ignore that, than there's no use in further debate as you're completey bypassing the staple LAW of the DBZ verse...

as for empiricle knowledge over reasoning... the sun looks like it's the size of my finger tip... no one's been able to bring it closer to show me otherwise.. it must be the size of my finger tip....

Originally posted by jinzin
dude you're not going to find someone on this board more knowledgeable about doomsday than me... but the fact is that superman is indeed staggered by punches of that strength range... sorry but it's the damned truth...

and that doomsday you showed was comparatively weaker (by leagues) than the one we came to know.. sure supes stood up to ONE hit from doomsday like that.. why don't you show what happened IMEDIATELY after that? is it that you're scared of people knowing the truth or what?

dd side kicked him (yeah a friggin kunf fu side kick) and sent superman through a house knocking the wind out of him.......

and yes that boulder in the pic was measured.. it's 400 and 60 damned tons.. sorry to burst your bubble....

I know DD has gotten far more powerful than since his first encounter with Superman.

What I was trying to prove is that Superman has taken strength greater than Goku's even at the end of DBZ. And Goku struggled with 40 tons after the Cell saga in his normal stat (when he was getteing ready for the tornament against Pikon), he had to go ssj. 😕

Originally posted by jinzin
dude.. that's pretty damned sad.. there's no need for such disrespect...what happened to you?

grasping for straws? not at all.. I just think that goku's physical strength and durability are being completely undermined here... I was simply making a point on goku's strength.. not saying he was going to be winning by out lifting/slugging supes... just thought I was bringing something to the table that hadn't been addressed before...

now...you keep assuming people to be dragging down superman to a level less than what he is.. but that's not the case.. we're using evidence on the character, how we've seen him presented.. I'm sorry but if he's presented at a level less than how you want him to be, that doesn't make it any less true when it's done.. and frequently at that...

what makes him escaping a black hole any more credible than any other PIS? I'm not trying to use the pis argument here.. all I'm saying is that you should probably consider that superman isn't about to do that 9 out of 10 times or anything.... no more than logan taking a nuke...

from what I've seen of supes, that's not his standard of speed and power... like I said.. superman gets punched by the likes of darksied, orion, lobo, batman,and etrigan, and on top of that, he was staggered by a bunch of puny lazers from some pathetic war worlders... you can't blame people for thinking that he might succumb again.. he's getting punched in the face every week.. he doesn't escape black holes every week..... there's a huge difference in consistency there..

now I know you're using JUST empiricle knowledge here. you but have to consider the fact that the power level sysytem is a linear system man.. it's self evident.. and bardock explained it perfectly...

if you're going to ignore that, than there's no use in further debate as you're completey bypassing the staple LAW of the DBZ verse...

as for empiricle knowledge over reasoning... the sun looks like it's the size of my finger tip... no one's been able to bring it closer to show me otherwise.. it must be the size of my finger tip....

Superman is always holding back against his foe, and Orion has Superspeed, and Darkseid, Lobo, and Etrigan can take a punch from Superman, I don't think ssj3 Goku can take even one punch from Superman.

And lazer beams has no effect on Superman go back to page 55, he goes right through particle beams like they were nothing.

Here's Superman not being fased by lazer beams too.

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/4672/10172005115314am4by.jpg

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6312/10172005115419am7js.jpg

I'm still waiting for proof that ssj3 Goku is faster, stronger, more durable, and has the stamina to compete with Superman too.