Thor vs. Hulk

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Seems like some people have a hard time comprehending the rules on KMC.

The characters fight using the full extent of their abilities.

The rules complement each other. You're insinuating that Thor wouldn't act the way he always has against Hulk because of some artifical KMC rule. That kind of reading would eliminate CIS, not preserve it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
'Tis the truth.

I often times intentionally leave out the Full Capacity rule when I debate. With DC and Marvel characters. Because a lot of times, to me, it conflicts with the CIS rule. But Thor at full capacity dominates Hulk every single time.

Too often he holds back. Hell, he was able to own and shred Celestial armor worn by the 'Celestial Slayer,' a being powerful enough to beat Thor, KO Thunderstrike, and kill a genetic duplicate of Thor with one shot. Thor stopped holding back and utterly owned her. Ditto when he faced an amped Loki and Fenris at the same time, without Mjolnir.

Thor's a beast at full capacity.

I thought this was clear enough:

Originally posted by Raoul
[B]Clarification of CIS

Ok people, here are the finalised rules as regards PIS, CIS, and everything related to it.

PIS is, as always, off unless the thread starter says it's ON.

CIS, as was said before, is now a more diverse term, but is not as vague as before.

While CIS still exists in the form of characters like Rhino (who are just too stupid to know better), it also exists in one other form.

This is known as Character Inhibited Power. This applies to characters that have intelligence, like the Silver Surfer, Superman, and so on and so forth.

As Bada said:

"It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold."

What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.

In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:

The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience

Those four are key.

Example:

If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.

MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.

However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.

Examples:

Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.

Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.

It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET. [/B]

So Raoul what would you say to Thor using God blast every fight?

Originally posted by Raoul
I thought this was clear enough:

Translation: I was right.

😄

Originally posted by xJLxKing
So Raoul what would you say to Thor using God blast every fight?

complete shite.

"Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him."

That's the only problem I have with the well-developed and laid-out rule clarifications above. Because while it is true of Thor vs Juggernaut or Mangog... it is definitely not true with regards to Hulk.

In my opinion, Thor vs Hulk is an extremely exceptional case because of their long history. In their first fight, Thor took on Hulk as a test of his strength and pride as a warrior. He even asked Odin to temporarily undo the 60 second enchantment so he could take him on without Mjolnir. That fight had no clear victor. Since then, this has increasingly grated on Thor's mind. This is apparent because in subsequent fights, Thor almost always makes reference to his past bouts and rages at (i) Hulk's refusal to acknowledge Thor's superiority and (ii) his own inability to actually and conclusively prove it through victory.

Kind of like how Joker doesn't kill Batman because it'd ruin the joke, whereas Joker would have no qualms killing other people. It's just an instrinsic part of the character.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
"Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him."

That's the only problem I have with the well-developed and laid-out rule clarifications above. Because while it is true of Thor vs Juggernaut or Mangog... it is definitely not true with regards to Hulk.

In my opinion, Thor vs Hulk is an extremely exceptional case because of their long history. In their first fight, Thor took on Hulk as a test of his strength and pride as a warrior. He even asked Odin to temporarily undo the 60 second enchantment so he could take him on without Mjolnir. That fight had no clear victor. Since then, this has increasingly grated on Thor's mind. This is apparent because in subsequent fights, Thor almost always makes reference to his past bouts and rages at (i) Hulk's refusal to acknowledge Thor's superiority and (ii) his own inability to actually and conclusively prove it through victory.

Kind of like how Joker doesn't kill Batman because it'd ruin the joke, whereas Joker would have no qualms killing other people. It's just an instrinsic part of the character.

you are right, of course, but we have to take in to account that this is a forum fight. there is something larger at stake than pride. one person has to win. in that situation, thor would be forced to resort to other means to ensure victory, imo...

Originally posted by Raoul
you are right, of course, but we have to take in to account that this is a forum fight. there is something larger at stake than pride. one person has to win. in that situation, thor would be forced to resort to other means to ensure victory, imo...

Their brawl in Hel was pretty awesome. Was going to destroy the entire dimension, so Hela was forced to let Thor go.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
"Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him."

That's the only problem I have with the well-developed and laid-out rule clarifications above. Because while it is true of Thor vs Juggernaut or Mangog... it is definitely not true with regards to Hulk.

In my opinion, Thor vs Hulk is an extremely exceptional case because of their long history. In their first fight, Thor took on Hulk as a test of his strength and pride as a warrior. He even asked Odin to temporarily undo the 60 second enchantment so he could take him on without Mjolnir. That fight had no clear victor. Since then, this has increasingly grated on Thor's mind. This is apparent because in subsequent fights, Thor almost always makes reference to his past bouts and rages at (i) Hulk's refusal to acknowledge Thor's superiority and (ii) his own inability to actually and conclusively prove it through victory.

Kind of like how Joker doesn't kill Batman because it'd ruin the joke, whereas Joker would have no qualms killing other people. It's just an instrinsic part of the character.

Decent insight into Thor's character and personality I must say. You are of course right on every account.

We should probably try and take in the context of this fight to determine whether or not Thor would use lightning or magic. If there's just the two of them fighting for pride, then Thor would most likely rather die than use Mjolnir. Like you said, he's not fighting Mangog or Juggernaut. He's not fighting for the sake of saving the universe or asgard, he's just fighting to prove that he's stronger.

However, if they DO fight on earth, then Thor would surely realize that as their battle kept going on, the Hulk might endanger earth. If innocent lives were at stake, Thor would be able to "mature up" and finish it with Mjolnir.

Originally posted by Raoul
you are right, of course, but we have to take in to account that this is a forum fight. there is something larger at stake than pride. one person has to win. in that situation, thor would be forced to resort to other means to ensure victory, imo...

I recognize that Thor could easily BFR or Godblast Hulk. Thor's seen Dr. Strange do it to Hulk to interrupt a fight they were actually having. Thor, probably more than any other character, has resorted to special means to defeat character he cannot defeat through pure might alone. He's BFR'ed these types of opponents more than any other comic character. He's also resorted to using his most powerful attacks, e.g. Godblast, against such opponents. Think about Juggernaut, Mangog, Destroyer, Absorbing Man, and the rest of his foes he can't beat through traditional might.

But with the Hulk, Thor just won't do it. His pride prevents it. It's because he considered Hulk from the start to be nothing more than a raging brute, a monster like many others Thor has faced and beaten in the past. But the Hulk just won't be beaten. And Thor can't stand it. Everytime he fights the Hulk he goes through this struggle. Hulk, the monster, brings out the monster inside Thor. Essentially, Thor must prove he can defeat Hulk in a warrior's battle because in Thor's mind, he should be able to defeat him. His pride keeps getting in the way. It shows in their fights. It's completely different from Juggernaut, because Thor knows he can't defeat Juggernaut through traditional means and so his pride isn't wounded when he uses his exotic powers.

Considering they have near a dozen canon fights and it always ends up the same way, I don't think that recognizing this exception will threaten the rule. I also don't believe this exception will encourage the arguing of semantics in other match-ups. I'm hard-pressed to think of another match-up that's analogous to the special circumstances in a Thor vs Hulk fight. In the end, a thread-starter can simply state that Thor will use any and all means possible and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees, he has the means at his disposal. But this perennial matchup involves more than just means and ends. It involves more than just capabilities. It's about character and what they bring out in each other.

Later tonight, I'll post scans of their fights substantiating my claims. I'd ask that individual posters reserve judgment on whether to entertain this exception until then.

Save yourself time, they're all in Thor's respect thread.

^ Then you should be able to note that this was inaccurate:

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
However, if they DO fight on earth, then Thor would surely realize that as their battle kept going on, the Hulk might endanger earth. If innocent lives were at stake, Thor would be able to "mature up" and finish it with Mjolnir.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Then you should be able to note that this was inaccurate:Because Thor has outright endangered innocents in his fights with Hulk in the past. And when the fight is over, (sometimes even because the Hulk refuses to fight further), Thor's conscience is shocked back into normalcy and he becomes ashamed that he turned himself into something which he was trying to defeat, a monster.

Error on the writer's side.

Thor's proven the opposite time and time again.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'd argue that this is an exception to the rule. As we all know, there can be exceptions to rules and this is a very isolated and special exception that is well supported by on-panel proof.

I recognize that Thor could easily BFR or Godblast Hulk. Thor's seen Dr. Strange do it to Hulk to interrupt a fight they were actually having. Thor, probably more than any other character, has resorted to special means to defeat character he cannot defeat through pure might alone. He's BFR'ed these types of opponents more than any other comic character. He's also resorted to using his most powerful attacks, e.g. Godblast, against such opponents. Think about Juggernaut, Mangog, Destroyer, Absorbing Man, and the rest of his foes he can't beat through traditional might.

But with the Hulk, Thor just won't do it. His pride prevents it. It's because he considered Hulk from the start to be nothing more than a raging brute, a monster like many others Thor has faced and beaten in the past. But the Hulk just won't be beaten. And Thor can't stand it. Everytime he fights the Hulk he goes through this struggle. Hulk, the monster, brings out the monster inside Thor. Essentially, Thor must prove he can defeat Hulk in a warrior's battle because in Thor's mind, he should be able to defeat him. His pride keeps getting in the way. It shows in their fights. It's completely different from Juggernaut, because Thor knows he can't defeat Juggernaut through traditional means and so his pride isn't wounded when he uses his exotic powers.

Considering they have near a dozen canon fights and it always ends up the same way, I don't think that recognizing this exception will threaten the rule. I also don't believe this exception will encourage the arguing of semantics in other match-ups. I'm hard-pressed to think of another match-up that's analogous to the special circumstances in a Thor vs Hulk fight. In the end, a thread-starter can simply state that Thor will use any and all means possible and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees, he has the means at his disposal. But this perennial matchup involves more than just means and ends. It involves more than just capabilities. It's about character and what they bring out in each other.

Later tonight, I'll post scans of their fights substantiating my claims. I'd ask that individual posters reserve judgment on whether to entertain this exception until then.

from what i've read, though, thor does have a point where he'll decide that enough is enough...

honestly, my gut says to leave the rule as is. if there's enough support for what you're saying though, i don't see the harm in at least thinking about it.

^ Cool beans. I'll post em tonight.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Error on the writer's side.

Thor's proven the opposite time and time again.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'd argue that this is an exception to the rule. As we all know, there can be exceptions to rules and this is a very isolated and special exception that is well supported by on-panel proof.

I recognize that Thor could easily BFR or Godblast Hulk. Thor's seen Dr. Strange do it to Hulk to interrupt a fight they were actually having. Thor, probably more than any other character, has resorted to special means to defeat character he cannot defeat through pure might alone. He's BFR'ed these types of opponents more than any other comic character. He's also resorted to using his most powerful attacks, e.g. Godblast, against such opponents. Think about Juggernaut, Mangog, Destroyer, Absorbing Man, and the rest of his foes he can't beat through traditional might.

But with the Hulk, Thor just won't do it. His pride prevents it. It's because he considered Hulk from the start to be nothing more than a raging brute, a monster like many others Thor has faced and beaten in the past. But the Hulk just won't be beaten. And Thor can't stand it. Everytime he fights the Hulk he goes through this struggle. Hulk, the monster, brings out the monster inside Thor. Essentially, Thor must prove he can defeat Hulk in a warrior's battle because in Thor's mind, he should be able to defeat him. His pride keeps getting in the way. It shows in their fights. It's completely different from Juggernaut, because Thor knows he can't defeat Juggernaut through traditional means and so his pride isn't wounded when he uses his exotic powers.

Considering they have near a dozen canon fights and it always ends up the same way, I don't think that recognizing this exception will threaten the rule. I also don't believe this exception will encourage the arguing of semantics in other match-ups. I'm hard-pressed to think of another match-up that's analogous to the special circumstances in a Thor vs Hulk fight. In the end, a thread-starter can simply state that Thor will use any and all means possible and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees, he has the means at his disposal. But this perennial matchup involves more than just means and ends. It involves more than just capabilities. It's about character and what they bring out in each other.

Later tonight, I'll post scans of their fights substantiating my claims. I'd ask that individual posters reserve judgment on whether to entertain this exception until then.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
👆 that's their dynamic in a nutshell.

I disagree with all rationale. uhuh