Originally posted by RaoulSo here it is. Thor's had seven canon fights with the Hulk. Here are scans of six of those fights:
from what i've read, though, thor does have a point where he'll decide that enough is enough...honestly, my gut says to leave the rule as is. if there's enough support for what you're saying though, i don't see the harm in at least thinking about it.
This is Thor's first fight with Hulk from Journey Into Mystery #112, which sets the stage for all his subsequent fights. As is plainly clear, even though Thor was with his fellow Avengers and opposing Namor and Hulk, Thor went out of his way to plead with his father, Odin, for the opportunity to match Hulk on even ground and prove his superiority. Mind you, Thor's request happens in only a few panels going into the fight as he immediately recognized Hulk's power. But when the fight ended inconclusively due to their battlefield crumbling about them, you can tell how frustrated Thor is from his own words in the second scan:
This is Thor's second fight with Hulk from Defenders #10 during the Avengers/Defenders War. Right from the start, Thor refers back to their unfinished first encounter and rants about his superiority. Eventually he begins matching him blow for blow. Until they literally begin matching pure strength against pure strength until both the Avengers and the Defenders come to stop them:
Here is their third fight, from Hulk #255. Here is where Thor's battle-lust drives him to actually ignore the danger to innocents around him. If it weren't for Hulk himself reminding him of this and had Hulk not been so keen on escaping, who knows how far Thor would have gone to prove his superiority:
^ continued
But we don't have to think that hard, because here in their fourth fight (chronologically speaking anyway) that spans the entire length of a comic, Thor really begins to recognize how uncontrollable his need to best Hulk is and how far he can go in his battle-lust. And even though he recognizes it initially, Thor eventually gives in to his battle-lust until once again, it is Hulk himself who ends the fight, bringing Thor shame. This fight occurs in Thor #385:
This is their fifth fight, from the classic Hulk #300, where Hulk becomes mindless. Perhaps you'd think that when Hulk truly becomes a real monster, Thor might look past his own lust for battle, but instead he immediately dives into it with presumptuous and conclusory oaths of his superiority. Even more that that, Thor fights now to the death:
And in their final fight from Hulk #440, Thor actually explains how he may lose control during battle, a struggle that he's had in every one of their fights. It's a struggle he acknowledges is so precarious... that he instructs nobody to be within range of the battle because of the danger involved. And his warning proves prescient because he literally devolves into Warrior's Madness and succumbs to pure rage, fighting to the death again... to the point of not even paying attention to any outside danger:
The only other canon fight I'm aware of is their somewhat staged fight in Hela's realm where they trick Hela into releasing Thor's soul by causing incalculable collateral damage to her realm. That's six out of seven fights over 30+ years of Marvel lore. It's a long history rife with, what I consider at least, clear evidence that Hulk brings out the best in the unrestrained might of Thor, but also the worst in the uncontrollable lust for battle that Thor possesses. And this uncontrollable battle-lust, spurred on by his warrior's pride from the first moment they met each other, clearly has a degenerative effect on Thor's battle-savvy. It has gotten worse with every fight as you can see from the chronological progression of their fights. From self-pride which compromises his own safety, to a battle-lust which endangers innocents, to outright warrior's madness.
I'm not trying to paint Thor to be a foolhardy and over-prideful brute or make excuses for Hulk's perennial ability to stalemate Thor. Thor doesn't react this way to anybody else and I can only point to a few isolated instances where his battle furor compromises his skills, endangers his own safety and the safety of innocents. But every time he truly fights Hulk, it happens. Thor just degenerates into a brawling monster. Which is really the point of the stories behind their fights. Because despite Thor's nobility, he suffers from the very human flaws that render Hulk's ongoing story a tragic one. Hulk's been labeled a monster. And despite the man inside the monster, that's all the world ever sees. And everyone blames a monster and hates a monster. But it's an undeniable human trait that you become that which you most hate. And Thor's conflicts with Hulk draw on that essential theme. Thor himself says it best:
It's an exception to KMC's full capabilities rule, but not an ungrounded one. And it certainly isn't an artificial exception based on writer's mistake. It's the underlying theme behind their confrontations. And it's just the way it is between Thor and Hulk. Personally, I choose to recognize that rather than dismiss it.
^ The rules are also that they fight in character. They are not mutually exclusive of each other. Otherwise we wouldn't have them both be in effect in normal KMC bouts as a default rule. The original full capacity rule:
"Full Capacity It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."
The clarification of how CIS interacts with full capacity:
"Clarification of CIS This rule only countenances that they are not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up. It is tempered by the character's personality:
In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:
The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience
Those four are key...
... It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET."
Recognizing how Thor always fights Hulk is not a circumvention of the original full capacity rule or a run-around of the clarification of CIS. It embraces both rules fully because it acknowledges some of Thor's best feats in strength, durability and will, while at the same time, embracing a well-established part of Thor's character in a very specific scenario.
This isn't you with Thor's powers vs you with Hulk's powers. This is Thor vs Hulk. If you want to argue how a KMC debator with Thor's powers would fight a KMC debator with Hulk's powers, go ahead. Nothing stops you from making that sort of thread. But we all know subconsciously why those threads aren't made. Because we don't care and are not interested about what you would do, we care and are interested about what the characters would do.
Writer-editor Stan Lee described Thor's genesis, in the context of having been after the creation of the Hulk:
“ [H]ow do you make someone stronger than the strongest person? It finally came to me: Don't make him human — make him a god. I decided readers were already pretty familiar with the Greek and Roman gods. It might be fun to delve into the old Norse legends.... Besides, I pictured Norse gods looking like Vikings of old, with the flowing beards, horned helmets, and battle clubs. ...Journey into Mystery, needed a shot in the arm, so I picked Thor ... to headline the book. After writing an outline depicting the story and the characters I had in mind, I asked my brother, Larry, to write the script because I didn't have time. ...and it was only natural for me to assign the penciling to Jack Kirby....
nuff said.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And in their final fight from Hulk #440, Thor actually explains how he may lose control during battle, a struggle that he's had in every one of their fights. It's a struggle he acknowledges is so precarious... that he instructs nobody to be within range of the battle because of the danger involved. And his warning proves prescient because he literally devolves into Warrior's Madness and succumbs to pure rage, fighting to the death again... to the point of not even paying attention to any outside danger:
First of all, that is PIS. Thor can no longer go into Warrior Madness as he admitted in the Onslaught Saga. There, he also mentions how Warrior madness is not something you slip into, but requires meditation and incredible focus. It's not just Thor getting angry.
If you really want to consider that issue however, you can see that Thor drops Hulk with a single thunderbolt and has him reeling from that. Added together with the annual (Another fight you did not post) where Thor once again dropped the Hulk with a single thunderbolt, it's clear that he DOES sometimes use other attacks than simply punching and hitting.
And finally, in his unarmed battle against Hercules we saw that Thor called lightning to strike down Hercules. This was also a grudge match, and Thor claimed that lightning and weather was a part of him just like his arms and legs.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Cool beans. I'll post em tonight. I wouldn't characterize it as writer's error as Thor has proven several times to endanger innocents when caught in a battle furor.
When does he endager other lives? There was a battle with the Hulk. Thor does not endager lives any more than other super-heroes when he fights the Hulk. And in their fight from Defenders there was no lives being endangered. The Hulk was on a rampage and trying to STOP said rampage hardly qualifies as endangering innocent people.
Thor's attacks can tear apart mountain ranges and planets. And he's endangering what, 10-20 lives by wrestling with the Hulk, to stop him from FURTHER injuring people? He is a GOD, how do you expect the battles to go down?
You ALSO managed to leave out the part where the Hulk threatens to smash a woman, which stops Thor cold in his tracks. Or the time where Thor had released the fury of the rain, and was in fact endangering people. This caused BOTH him and the Hulk to stop and help people.
The fact that Thor does not raise Mjolnir and suck out Hulk's life force, unleash lightningstorms all over and let loose an energy attack that could destroy the planet, shows one thing. That Thor IS in control. Regardless of what you like to think, or that one sentence at the end of ONE fight, Thor could take Earth apart. He could rip continents asunder, but he still limits himself.
Scans courtesey of AJ and SuperiorTech
http://img200.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=61658_The_Incredible_Hulk_v2_-_440_-_15_122_159lo.jpg&loc=loc159
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%201/3.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%202/5.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%203/7.jpg
Originally posted by Kris BlazeThe fight that occurs in Hulk #440 is directly referenced in the last solo Thor issue which leads directly into Onslaught and Heroes Reborn. It was Thor entering warrior's madness and his fight with Hulk that gave him back powers in time for the showdown with Onslaught. He speaks to Red Norvell about this. And the first time we see warrior's madness, is when Thor fights Him and devolves into it, not out of meditation, but out of anger and fury.
Thor can no longer go into Warrior Madness as he admitted in the Onslaught Saga. There, he also mentions how Warrior madness is not something you slip into, but requires meditation and incredible focus. It's not just Thor getting angry.
Originally posted by Kris BlazeI don't know what annual you are referring to. Is it Thor or Hulk? What year is it? Also I never said he doesn't use thunder. I said he doesn't normally use his more exotic powers at his command, e.g. force-fields, BFR's, energy absorption, godblasts, etc. You're arguing past me, i.e. rebutting a point I never made.
If you really want to consider that issue however, you can see that Thor drops Hulk with a single thunderbolt and has him reeling from that. Added together with the annual (Another fight you did not post) where Thor once again dropped the Hulk with a single thunderbolt, it's clear that he DOES sometimes use other attacks than simply punching and hitting.
Originally posted by Kris BlazeThor was responsible for Jake Olsen's death in Thor vol.2 #1 when he cut loose with a raging storm. There are other examples. That obvious example should suffice to end your inquiry. And if you carefully read my descriptions of the Hulk fights, you'll note that I describe how Thor's fights with Hulk grow increasingly violent and catastrophic. As I stated, the danger to innocents starts in their third fight and escalates further in their fourth fight. In their fifth fight, the captions state, "[F]or it is the city that suffers most of all." And this was when the Avengers and Spiderman were present to mitigate the damage unlike the previous fights. And again, if you pay attention to the progression that I am focusing on, Thor outright acknowledges this when he commands everybody to get away from their fight in Hulk #440.
When does he endager other lives? There was a battle with the Hulk. Thor does not endager lives any more than other super-heroes when he fights the Hulk. And in their fight from Defenders there was no lives being endangered. The Hulk was on a rampage and trying to STOP said rampage hardly qualifies as endangering innocent people.
Originally posted by Kris BlazeAccording to your theories, a simple BFR. Like he does with many other foes. But with the Hulk, he never does. Which is the point of my post that you seem intent on arguing past rather than directly addressing. Does Thor brawl with Hulk? Answer: Yes. Does he have a reason for doing so? Answer: Yes, Hulk as an obstacle stokes his pride and lust for battle. Does this behavior by Thor worsen with every battle they have? Answer: Yes. Is it likely that a future battle between the two would pan out the same way? Answer: ___.
Thor's attacks can tear apart mountain ranges and planets. And he's endangering what, 10-20 lives by wrestling with the Hulk, to stop him from FURTHER injuring people? He is a GOD, how do you expect the battles to go down?
Originally posted by Kris BlazeWhich doesn't stop Thor from devolving into brawling when the woman is safe and further endangering innocents for the rest of the battle. If your point is that Thor does care about innocents, you are correct. But you're arguing past me because I never said that Thor doesn't care about innocents. I'm arguing that when he is drawn into a battle-lust, which occurs every time he fights Hulk, innocents are endangered. Thor outright admits this himself.
You ALSO managed to leave out the part where the Hulk threatens to smash a woman, which stops Thor cold in his tracks.
Bringing up that fact strengthens my argument. It should be revealing to you that Thor consciously recognizes the danger to innocents throughout the fight, but still can't help himself from raising his fury and progressively worsening the danger around them. This continually worsens to the point where Hulk himself ended two fights of theirs. Thor recognizes this to such a degree that before he even starts their last fight in Hulk #440, he preemptively tells everyone to get away from the battle. His battle-lust, drawn out by the Hulk, overrides even his conscious concerns for the people around him, much less his own safety.
The point of posting their fights is a response to an inquiry as to whether Thor vs Hulk is an exception to how full capacity and CIS interact. Does Thor, as a character, behave differently around Hulk? The answer is yes. Hulk brings out the worst in him. Even during and after Thor recognizes this to his utter shame. It's because that is his character. So what's more pertinent to this inquiry? What Thor's powers are capable of doing and having that guide your conclusions, while excluding and ignoring Thor's character? Or what Thor's actions exhibit, against a very special opponent, time and time again on-panel, to the point where it gets worse with every encounter?
Is a KMC fight about power set or is it about character?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The fight that occurs in Hulk #440 is directly referenced in the last solo Thor issue which leads directly into Onslaught and Heroes Reborn. It was Thor entering warrior's madness and his fight with Hulk that gave him back powers in time for the showdown with Onslaught. He speaks to Red Norvell about this. And the first time we see warrior's madness, is when Thor fights Him and devolves into it, not out of meditation, but out of anger and fury
I always though Hulk and Thor's fight took place some time after the Onslaught Crisis. Also, hadn't the Hulk been powered up? Regardlesss, I easily call PIS on said issue. Thor's fought many, many opponents at his max limit for extended periods of time, without slipping into warrior madness. He's taken far more pain, and he's fought stronger opponents, without resorting to warrior madness.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thor was responsible for Jake Olsen's death in Thor vol.2 #1 when he cut loose with a raging storm. There are other examples. That obvious example should suffice to end your inquiry. And if you carefully read my descriptions of the Hulk fights, you'll note that I describe how Thor's fights with Hulk grow increasingly violent and catastrophic. As I stated, the danger to innocents starts in their third fight and escalates further in their fourth fight. In their fifth fight, the captions state, "[F]or it is the city that suffers most of all."
Yes, but he wasn't fighting Hulk in Thor v2 #1, was he?
Like I said, you're REALLY focusing on small time damage here. A few incidents and fatalities are unavoidable when these two clash. Regardless of that, it seems to be mainly in his hulk fights that this takes place. I don't have Thor v2 1 here, but Jake Olsen was the only one who died? Because there are far more examples of Thor stopping to resue innocents. Like his fight against Durok the demolisher (Thor v1 192), or several bouts against the Absorbing Man (V2 incidents).
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But with the Hulk, he never does. Which is the point of my post that you seem intent on arguing past rather than directly addressing. Does Thor brawl with Hulk? Answer: Yes. Does he have a reason for doing so? Answer: Yes, Hulk as an obstacle stokes his pride and lust for battle. Does this behavior by Thor worsen with every battle they have? Answer: Yes. Is it likely that a future battle between the two would pan out the same way? Answer: ___.Which doesn't stop Thor from devolving into brawling when the woman is safe and further endangering innocents for the rest of the battle. If your point is that Thor does care about innocents, you are correct. But you're arguing past me because I never said that Thor doesn't care about innocents. I'm arguing that when he is drawn into a battle-lust, which occurs every time he fights Hulk, innocents are endangered. Thor outright admits this himself.
Thor "brawls" with the Hulk to a certain point. TWICE now has he dropped the Hulk with lightning, I posted the scans earlier. Even in that ridiculously written Hulk comic, does Thor employ his lightning. For some reason you absolutely refuse to see beyond just a couple of fights you've handpicked to support your claim. If you're gonna try and prove a point here, do something beyond appealing to the idiocy of the more simple posters here. And for crying out, stop ignoring entire fights. You've chosen 3 early figths in Thor and Hulk's history and you purposely misinterpret fights. Hulk and Thor stalemated physically, what do you think is going to happen once Hulk reaches superiority? No, Thor is not going to go into "warrior madness" he's going to kill the Hulk with a lightningbolt.
I can't deny that Thor brawls with the Hulk, because he does. It's never life or death however. It may have been in one of their initial encounters, but once things gets seriously dangerous, Thor will use Mjolnir. That is what's going to happen here. You're right that Thor gets his battle-lust on, but this doesn't mean he'll brawl to his death. Thor loves to fight allright, but he's not going to die because of it.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Bringing up that fact strengthens my argument. It should be revealing to you that Thor consciously recognizes the danger to innocents throughout the fight, but still can't help himself from raising his fury and progressively worsening the danger around them. This continually worsens to the point where Hulk himself ended two fights of theirs. Thor recognizes this to such a degree that before he even starts their last fight in Hulk #440, he preemptively tells everyone to get away from the battle. His battle-lust, drawn out by the Hulk, overrides even his conscious concerns for the people around him, much less his own safety.
This supposed disregard for human life takes place in a few isolated incidents. And like we saw, Thor still used lightning as soon as they were distanced from eachother. It's like the issue wants to display Thor taking precautions for his own idiocy. Even before the fight had started, it was like using ANYTHING but his fist wasn't even a possibility.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The point of posting their fights is a response to an inquiry as to whether Thor vs Hulk is an exception to how full capacity and CIS interact. Does Thor, as a character, behave differently around Hulk? The answer is yes. Hulk brings out the worst in him. Even during and after Thor recognizes this to his utter shame. It's because that is his character. So what's more pertinent to this inquiry? What Thor's powers are capable of doing and having that guide your conclusions, while excluding and ignoring Thor's character? Or what Thor's actions exhibit, against a very special opponent, time and time again on-panel, to the point where it gets worse with every encounter?
Gets worse with every encounter? Hardly, seeing as you ignored two of their battles. One where Hulk lost and another where Thor was being forced into Hera, and Hulk was losing. Not to mention the fact that the Hulk had been grossly powered up in their battle in IH #440 and that Thor seemed to be pretty much in control in their defenders battle. One can't exactly claim that Thor didn't have any kind of disregard for his own safety there. Hulk drew blood twice, and the second time Thor ended it simply.
"Thou art finished" and bam, lightningbolt.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Is a KMC fight about power set or is it about character?
Both, obviously.
And when things get serious, so does Thor.
I believe he is referring to hulk annual 2001.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/HulkANN2001_12a.jpg
The second scan is more than likely what he is referring to.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/HulkANN2001_19a.jpg
Here is where Thor inadvertently puts lives in jeopardy.
As you can see Hulk saves them and so ends their conflict with Thor misjudging him.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/HulkANN2001_23a.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/HulkANN2001_23b.jpg
Originally posted by Kris BlazeI am up and down over this issue. On one hand it does seem like Thor does like to mix it up and on the other Thor has shown other abilities like bfring the both of them to another location for the innocent people involved.
Like I mentioned earlier, and Quanchi posted.Once it gets bloody, Thor will whip out lightning. The pair of them are still intelligent enough to realize that innocent lives are much more important.
Here Thor claims in the same comic that he will use every power at his command to best Hulk. Things don't escalate to that point and you can see it's clear that by Hulk's actions in this comic that he was still determining the Hulk's intentions.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/HulkANN2001_11a.jpg
Had things escalated I think Thor can and will use his other abilities, but the fight stopped before anything got as serious as a godblast, etc.
Really, I think both avenues can be argued. I think the warrior madness he slipped into should be an isolated issue as that rarely happens. That Thor will always throw down with the Hulk while ignoring his other abilities.
I can really see points from both sides and I feel this should be left up in the air.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
When has Hulk ever beat the shit out of Thor?When has Hulk ever picked up Mjolnir, swung it, and blasted Thor away?
What the hell are you talking about?
We aren't using fan fiction here. Thor has never lost to Hulk, while Thor has knocked Hulk out. This isn't taking into account the fact that Thor holds back, and doesn't even bother to use his more exotic power set etc.
Even in hand to hand, Thor has stalemated Hulk every time they have fought. Even for hours on end in strength despite Hulk's fabled ever increasing strength.
Thor also held back his strength/power in all of their fights as well.
read the comics man
itl'l tell u everything u need to know
