Dr. Manhattan vs Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A consciousness can be affected by telepathy. Have you proof that you need a physical brain to be affected by it? If so, please provide it (and don't just turn around and say nyargh, YOU provide it)

He can just make more energy ad infinitum? Proof?

What if Surfer sends him to a realm outside of his knowledge (Mephisto's realm etc)? Just because I can drive, does not mean that you can drop me anywhere in the world and I can navigate back.

Proof that an abstract consciousness has no soul? Because it sounds suspiciously like a soul.

I disagree that a abstract made of the quantum field has a soul. I'm interested to here how he has one.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I really enjoyed the part where you didn't provide anything. Priceless

I provided proof but you ignored all of it. Let's just stop this because we never going to convince each other of anything.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I disagree that a abstract made of the quantum field has a soul. I'm interested to here how he has one.

What is your definition of a soul?

Because at the moment, your words (or at least, Alan Moore's) sounds suspiciously like one. A quantum field that holds your consciousness beyond the death of your physical body? That sounds like a soul to me.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What is your definition of a soul?

Because at the moment, your words (or at least, Alan Moore's) sounds suspiciously like one. A quantum field that holds your consciousness beyond the death of your physical body? That sounds like a soul to me.

That is a interesting way to put it then. Maybe he does have a soul. If you consider a conscious a soul. In my thoughts I don't consider a conscious a soul.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I provided proof but you ignored all of it. Let's just stop this because we never going to convince each other of anything.

You haven't provided proof though, all you did was repost a scan that showed he wasn't multiversal. You're basically trolling at this point as your the only person who believes your stance.

Originally posted by h1a8
The original Watchmen comic shows him doing everything I named except for the planck time feats. DM simply stated he could do it. There is no reason for him to lie about that. I'm not even sure he could lie.

I don't understand. You don't believe DM can do what exactly?

Just to be clear, you just said he did everything you named. You named him making millions of copies. When does this happen, post the feat. Post the issue number, the page it happens on, etc. Show me him turning into millions of copies, because you just flat out said it happened. I don't want a scan of DM saying he can do it, I want a scan of him doing it. If you don't know the exact page this happens on just provide the issue number, I'll find it. I can't wait to see Doc turn into a million copies, should be awesome!

Mayhaps you will also provide me feats of Doc hurting beings so durable they can survive black holes. It's going to be tough because Doc himself is the only one with super powers in his universe, BUT you seem to know all these feats I don't so who knows! Bring on the feats. Doesn't even need to be "black hole" tough. Show me him hurting someone who can laugh off nukes. This is gonna be sweet, always wanted to see some major league feats for the guy,and you seem like just the person to provide them.

Surfer wins effortlessly. How is this even a debate?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A consciousness can be affected by telepathy. Have you proof that you need a physical brain to be affected by it? If so, please provide it (and don't just turn around and say nyargh, YOU provide it)

He can just make more energy ad infinitum? Proof?

What if Surfer sends him to a realm outside of his knowledge (Mephisto's realm etc)? Just because I can drive, does not mean that you can drop me anywhere in the world and I can navigate back.

Proof that an abstract consciousness has no soul? Because it sounds suspiciously like a soul.

Originally posted by h1a8
souls imply the existence of a creator. In the watchmen universe God most likely doesn't exist and scientific theory corresponds to real theories. So from the writers perspective, manhattan doesn't have a soul.

Dude what the hell are you talking about? Seriously..what the hell? Are you the be all end all of soul knowledge? How you can say "souls means god, and there is no god" is beyond me.

Seriously, is anything of this babble you said actually in the comics? Or are you just making shit up as you go along? What issue number does DM discuss his SOUL and whether he has one or not? Or is this just an assumption that makes zero sense whatsoever, because reasons!

Ask yourself why you feel the need to bend over backwards and provide arguments so silly a 12 yr. old can see through them..just to say Doc beats a character he has no business beating? Why? Is he your favorite character? Did you go through some trauma as a child and your Watchmen comics are the only thing that got you through it? Did your childhood pet choke to death on a Silver Surfer comic or something and now you hate him? That's rough man, but don't take it out on poor Norrin.

Originally posted by h1a8
souls imply the existence of a creator.

In the watchmen universe God most likely doesn't exist and scientific theory corresponds to real theories. So from the writers perspective, manhattan doesn't have a soul.

The rest of this post is just assumptions with zero proof. My question was to Time, and was asking what HIS opinion was concerning the soul. Not to you. Considering the times I've owned you in Watchmen-related debates, frankly I'm surprised you're stepping up again. This would make it...what, the third time?

Be gentle man, his dog died eating a Silver Surfer comic! I'd hate Surfer too. Damn you Marvel, why you make those comics look so tasty?

Originally posted by Surtur
Just to be clear, you just said he did everything you named. You named him making millions of copies. When does this happen, post the feat. Post the issue number, the page it happens on, etc. Show me him turning into millions of copies, because you just flat out said it happened. I don't want a scan of DM saying he can do it, I want a scan of him doing it. If you don't know the exact page this happens on just provide the issue number, I'll find it. I can't wait to see Doc turn into a million copies, should be awesome!

Mayhaps you will also provide me feats of Doc hurting beings so durable they can survive black holes. It's going to be tough because Doc himself is the only one with super powers in his universe, BUT you seem to know all these feats I don't so who knows! Bring on the feats. Doesn't even need to be "black hole" tough. Show me him hurting someone who can laugh off nukes. This is gonna be sweet, always wanted to see some major league feats for the guy,and you seem like just the person to provide them.

He can become intangible in battle, or grow very large. Basically he can control space-time and energy. He could possibly teleport Surfer's head off or Surfer into a singularity (not the event horizon).

Bottomline: this is at least a stalemate since DM can reform, duplicate, teleport, and become intangible. There is no way Surfer or any herald being can beat him.

So in other words you lied. You said he did everything you named, and you named turning into millions, not 3. You sure as heck don't get to say "he turned into 3 so thus he can turn into millions" because that is so utterly silly I don't know what to say. So, would you continue to debate someone who flat out lies?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Which Dr Manhattan has. His name is Alan Moore.

The rest of this post is just assumptions with zero proof. My question was to Time, and was asking what HIS opinion was concerning the soul. Not to you. Considering the times I've owned you in Watchmen-related debates, frankly I'm surprised you're stepping up again. This would make it...what, the third time?

Originally posted by Surtur
So in other words you lied. You said he did everything you named, and you named turning into millions, not 3.

Except Surfer can attack souls. Which are intangible consciousness..ess.

He also has telepathy. Which works on intangible beings. Certainly in the DCU, of which the Watchmen U is a subset of. You may have heard of Martian Manhunter.

Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't mean to. I was speaking figuratively. Just throwing out arbitrary numbers to make a point.

Figuratively, speaking in such a way makes no sense when you make the jump from 3 to MILLIONS. If you'd said dozens and it was in fact 3, that would be one thing.

You've stilled failed to prove DM lacks a soul. So now I ask, feats for resisting soul attacks? It's that simple. You either prove he has no soul or you prove he can resist soul attacks by listing to us an occasion when he did so. Doing the latter would be a neat trick since nobody in Watchmen ever showed power over the soul. If you can't do either of these there is no more to debate, if you can't provide proof he lacks a soul(and that burden is indeed on you) then, that is all she wrote.

Originally posted by h1a8
actually you didn't own me. At best you probably showed a contradiction with two canon sources. DM was actually shown to affect the past an alter the future in the original series.

Well, the first instance was Batman/Ozymandias.

Second was a mod ruling that Before Watchmen was canon. You now admit that it is canon, when previously your stance was that it wasn't canon. From the back of a cereal box, I believe your words were.

So yeah, two Watchmen-related instances where my opinion won out over yours.

Originally posted by Surtur
So in other words you lied. You said he did everything you named, and you named turning into millions, not 3. You sure as heck don't get to say "he turned into 3 so thus he can turn into millions" because that is so utterly silly I don't know what to say. So, would you continue to debate someone who flat out lies?

Of course h1 lied, it seems like one of his favorite debating tactics.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except Surfer can attack souls. Which are intangible consciousness..ess.

He also has telepathy. Which works on intangible beings. Certainly in the DCU, of which the Watchmen U is a subset of. You may have heard of Martian Manhunter.

surfer can read minds but refuses to do so and rather talk. Where has he up and assaulted someone telepathically with no plot devices?