Dr. Manhattan vs Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then where in your definition did the words 'magical' 'God' 'supernatural' creep in? This is why I asked YOU to define it, not me - because I wanted to see what your understanding of the word soul meant. Only when you realised what I was doing, did you try to move the goalposts and claim something else.

With regards to TP - again, I asked YOU what was happening. You said Surfer CAN create TP links to someone. Fine, I agree. Your words, not mine. I then showed how once a link is established, he can flow his power down that route. YOU'RE the one who is arguing he can create links. Not me. I merely shows what he can do with the links, which is what you were asking in the first place. Now you change your mind, again, when you realise you have backed yourself into a corner.

Lol aren't all of your arguments speculation anyway, as Manhattan has not done any of that to someone of Surfer's calibre?

Well that's my definition of soul. Something immortal that was created by a creator to insure life after death.

I said, I don't know how he reads minds. It could be through analyzing the person's brain (electrical signals or molecules) and interpreting them. This wouldn't be the same as true TP. Thus no TP link was created. Surfer uses the power cosmic to affect people's brain, and not necessarily true TP.
This is important to debate whether he can offensively affect something intangible or something that exists outside of their avatar(s).

P.S. It's really speculation at best whether Surfer can affect DM with tp (assuming he even has that power) with the effect of ko or death.

It's not an important debate, it's you making things up because you don't want the other side to win.

Originally posted by Silent Master
It's not an important debate, it's you making things up because you don't want the other side to win.

Who? Me silent?

Originally posted by h1a8
I like Surfer but I can't lie to myself. I don't see any way for him to win. I'm not claiming DM can win either (but it's a possibility). Just believe that Surfer can do nothing to put DM down for good, that's all.
It would make no sense to argue something I really don't believe.

LOL!!!

Originally posted by h1a8
Well that's my definition of soul. Something immortal that was created by a creator to insure life after death.

I said, I don't know how he reads minds. It could be through analyzing the person's brain (electrical signals or molecules) and interpreting them. This wouldn't be the same as true TP. Thus no TP link was created. Surfer uses the power cosmic to affect people's brain, and not necessarily true TP.
This is important to debate whether he can offensively affect something intangible or something that exists outside of their avatar(s).

P.S. It's really speculation at best whether Surfer can affect DM with tp (assuming he even has that power) with the effect of ko or death.

Well, I find it funny that you shape your words exactly so as to ensure you can continue arguing. When the very first definition (which YOU posted, not me) had no such caveat of a creator. Chopping and changing your definitions to suit your argument, I see.

He uses TP:
http://i.imgur.com/uIGILkv.jpg

'a telepathic flash'.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, I find it funny that you shape your words exactly so as to ensure you can continue arguing. When the very first definition (which YOU posted, not me) had no such caveat of a creator. Chopping and changing your definitions to suit your argument, I see.

He uses TP:
http://i.imgur.com/uIGILkv.jpg

'a telepathic flash'.

Ok so Surfer can use tp to communicate.
Now we need evidence that he can use tp to ko or kill DM.

Originally posted by h1a8
I copied and pasted the first definition I found on the web. It doesn't contradict my definition at all. My definition just explains where it come from and why. Both have immortality to them.

Ok so Surfer can use tp to communicate.
Now we need evidence that he can use tp to ko or kill DM.

I never said it contradicted. I said you ADDED the caveat of a creator. When your original definition NEVER had any mention of a creator in it. Be that as it may, you still agreed with it when you copy/pasted it, even if it WAS the first one you found.

He can open a telepathic link.

He can force the power cosmic through it.

The next question is, how powerful would this be? Which goes back to my original point. Which you keep going around in circles, when you could just do some research yourself.

H1 is the king of circular arguments, straw grasping and using his opinion as fact. Hilarious actually

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True. I agree. 100%. 👆. I wish I had a bigger thumb. So does my gf.

Originally posted by Galan007
Know that this pun was not lost on me. clapclap

I feel vindicated in my decision.

Originally posted by Magnon
[B]As numerous as Surfer creating kryptonite.

But seriously speaking... Manhattan has created complex devices, structures, and even living cells just by manifesting the parts and joining them together. There's no reason why he couldn't create the necessary parts for a power-drainer.. something Doom, Reed, and HE have no problems in creating.

This is a cop out, basically I have to assume if you had actual feats to back up your claims you would of mentioned them instead of just bringing up Surfer and kryptonite. First before I say anything else stop mentioning Doom, Reed, and High Evolutionary. They are geniuses on a level that far outstrips DM, so the "if they can do it DM can!" isn't going to fly..mainly because it makes no sense. The smartest guy in Watchmen was supposed to be Ozy, and he frankly doesn't hold a candle to Reed or Doom. If he did..he would of casually been able to take down DM.

So yeah, there is every reason why he can't drain the Surfer. You seem to think constantly mentioning kryptonite means something. You do realize Surfer at least has on panel feats of him actually sensing a persons specific weakness to a certain type of radiation and then saying he could create it if he wanted? This person was Gladiator btw. So why you feel it is apt to compare Surfer and kryptonite to this is anyone's guess because they are not remotely the same. DM hasn't ever done what you suggest. He built stuff, okay, he built devices and structures. None of that means he can power drain Surfer.

He certainly was building some kind of energy device for Ozy(that he turned into a bomb in the movies) but that doesn't mean he can do what Doom did.

SS eats him.

Lock this thread.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I never said it contradicted. I said you ADDED the caveat of a creator. When your original definition NEVER had any mention of a creator in it. Be that as it may, you still agreed with it when you copy/pasted it, even if it WAS the first one you found.

He can open a telepathic link.

He can force the power cosmic through it.

The next question is, how powerful would this be? Which goes back to my original point. Which you keep going around in circles, when you could just do some research yourself.

Here are some important questions that need to be considered.

1. What constitutes a "mind" or entity that is capable of being affected through TP.
Does it require a physical brain with electrical impulses, a soul, a material object that can think, etc?

2. If DM has a mind according to 1. above then where would DM's mind be ? Clearly it isn't in his avatar. Is it part of the quantum field, multiple places and times simultaneously?

Finally since we are speculating for possibly ways for Surfer to win. How about if DM teleports Surfer's head off? His teleportation has no bearing on durability. Hell, he doesn't even teleport by disassembling at all. He rather moves/warps space around the object and the not the object itself. How about DM removing Surfer's intrinsic field, causing Surfer to disintegrate?

Originally posted by Mindset
SS eats him.

Lock this thread.

He can't get ate. His avatar is not him. He isn't outside of space-time and can regrow himself or duplicate himself from nothing. Even if he could, he can just teleport anywhere or become intangible.

Originally posted by h1a8
He can't get ate. His avatar is not him. He isn't outside of space-time and can regrow himself or duplicate himself from nothing. Even if he could, he can just teleport anywhere or become intangible.

*is outside of space-time

Originally posted by h1a8
He can't get ate. His avatar is not him. He isn't outside of space-time and can regrow himself or duplicate himself from nothing. Even if he could, he can just teleport anywhere or become intangible.

When did Doc show he existed outside of time and space?

I'm also not sure if "avatar" is the right word for him. His normal form(the blue one) is his natural form, but he can also survive the destruction of his body and obviously survive as nothing but consciousness until he reforms his physical form. I don't know, when I think of someone with an avatar..I think of things like the gods from the Forgotten Realms(dungeons and dragons). The gods exist, but can also take on avatar forms, though these forms only contain a small amount of their power. I guess I always felt an avatar was always just a representation of something that is actually greater. With Doc, what you see is what you get.

Originally posted by Mindset
SS pulls himself inside of space-time and eats him.

LOL! Good one. That's funny.

Originally posted by Surtur
When did Doc show he existed outside of time and space?

I'm also not sure if "avatar" is the right word for him. His normal form(the blue one) is his natural form, but he can also survive the destruction of his body and obviously survive as nothing but consciousness until he reforms his physical form. I don't know, when I think of someone with an avatar..I think of things like the gods from the Forgotten Realms(dungeons and dragons). The gods exist, but can also take on avatar forms, though these forms only contain a small amount of their power. I guess I always felt an avatar was always just a representation of something that is actually greater. With Doc, what you see is what you get.

He can have multiples of himself that act independently of each other. The fact that he can reform from nothing shows that his existence extends further than just his body.