Well...before deceiding the winner, some points for the 4 people fighthing here.
NJO Luke:
- defeated Vader
- defeated Sidious who has altered his force powers with a chrystal
- defeated Joruus C'Baoth
- defeated Mara Jade
- threw an entire fleet out of a star system
- survived Exar Kuns spirit + Kyp Durron attacking him with force powers
- with a concussion of the brain, a badly injured leg (direct hit from a Ghamorrean with an axe !), and a damaged lung he could still levitate 30 metres and force push a metal shredder through an entire room
- he rendered an entire planet invisible for an infinite amount of time
- he was able to produce an illusion with the force to change his appearance deceiving all inhabitants of a space station and also other force users (without them knowing he actualy did anything)
- he kept that illusion running for more than a week in a place where people on the level of a Dark Jedi can't even ignite their lightsaber through the force being there for half an hour
- he can control black holes as well as gravity
- he trained people that could tear down entire mountains with force powers / he trained somebody that killed Marka Ragnos spirit (something that people like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun were afraid of even trying !)
- he singlehandly destroyed thousands of Yuuzhan Vong, killed their most powerful fighters (Slayers - Kyp Durron hit them with dozens of hits and wasn't able to kill one of them) with one hit each and killed their Supreme Overlord (so the most powerful fighter of an entire race of fighters) in a duel.
I guess, we all know what Revan did...
Malak:
- he defeated two Jedi (so probably he is something like Dooku in a lightsaber duel)
- he defeated Kavar
- he got his ass kicked by KOTOR I Revan at least two times in a row
- he didn't ever manage to step out of Revans shadow...hell he wasn't even able to kill Revan when Revan was busy fighting 5 Jedi.
Mace:
-he invented his own lightsaber style when he was a Padawan
-he posess his unique Shatterpoint ability
-he is the second best Jedi duelist known (except Yoda)
-he defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel
-he probably can kill Dooku in a lightsaber duel
-he destroyed hundrets or thousands of battle droids (+ the seismic tank on Dantooine) even without having a weapon
-he killed Jango Fett
-he defeated Asajj Ventress
And now come on people. Revan defeating NJO Luke ? Please. Revan is powerful, he is a great swordfighter. No doubt about it. But he still isn't Luke Skywalker. You can call me a Luke fanboy, you can argue that point for years with me but Luke pretty much can't be killed by ANYBODY in the SW universe. He could simply make himself invisible and not senseable through the force (he actualy posesses that abilities), sneak up behind Revan and cut Revan into pieces with his lightsabers before Revan would know that somebody is there.
Mace vs Malak:
Mace will just use his Shatterpoint ability, find Malaks weak point and exploid it. Hell...Windu invented his own fighting style when he was 12 or 13 years old, he became a Council member at the age of 28 (an age were "normal" people are just ready to become Jedi Knights - Obi-Wan became a Knight at the age of 25) being the youngest Council member in the history of the Jedi Order. Actually that says a lot about Mace force knowledge and lightsaber mastery and I'd say he clearly is more powerful than Malak.
So I'd say that Mace would defeat Malak and you'll end up with NJO Luke + Mace vs Revan with Jedi winning. And please don't say something about "teamwork"...they would have no time for teamwork here.
Thats just bullshit.
First of all about Malak
- He ruled thousands of Sith
- He made the Republic cry for mercy
- He almost destroyed the republic
- He had an amazing control over the force
- He had enough power to control a star.
- He defeated and ruled over Jedi Councillors and Ex - Jedi councillors.
- He was a legendaric fighter
- He was a front line general during two wars in which he fought a lot.
You are underestimating both Malak and Revan by a lot and overestimating Mace. And half of the things you posted about Mace are from as impressive as the things that Malak did. When you post a list like that at least make it fair.
Malak is far more powreful then what most people give him credit for. He ruled countless of people including council members. Defeated people with a lot of experience and was seen as the greatest duelist of his time second to Revan only, and that was a time of war when there were a lot of duelist. Just becauase he lost to Revan doesn't mean he is weak.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...before deceiding the winner, some points for the 4 people fighthing here.NJO Luke:
- defeated Vader
- defeated Sidious who has altered his force powers with a chrystal
- defeated Joruus C'Baoth
- defeated Mara Jade
- threw an entire fleet out of a star system
- survived Exar Kuns spirit + Kyp Durron attacking him with force powers
- with a concussion of the brain, a badly injured leg (direct hit from a Ghamorrean with an axe !), and a damaged lung he could still levitate 30 metres and force push a metal shredder through an entire room
- he rendered an entire planet invisible for an infinite amount of time
- he was able to produce an illusion with the force to change his appearance deceiving all inhabitants of a space station and also other force users (without them knowing he actualy did anything)
- he kept that illusion running for more than a week in a place where people on the level of a Dark Jedi can't even ignite their lightsaber through the force being there for half an hour
- he can control black holes as well as gravity
- he trained people that could tear down entire mountains with force powers / he trained somebody that killed Marka Ragnos spirit (something that people like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun were afraid of even trying !)
- he singlehandly destroyed thousands of Yuuzhan Vong, killed their most powerful fighters (Slayers - Kyp Durron hit them with dozens of hits and wasn't able to kill one of them) with one hit each and killed their Supreme Overlord (so the most powerful fighter of an entire race of fighters) in a duel.I guess, we all know what Revan did...
Malak:
- he defeated two Jedi (so probably he is something like Dooku in a lightsaber duel)
- he defeated Kavar
- he got his ass kicked by KOTOR I Revan at least two times in a row
- he didn't ever manage to step out of Revans shadow...hell he wasn't even able to kill Revan when Revan was busy fighting 5 Jedi.Mace:
-he invented his own lightsaber style when he was a Padawan
-he posess his unique Shatterpoint ability
-he is the second best Jedi duelist known (except Yoda)
-he defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel
-he probably can kill Dooku in a lightsaber duel
-he destroyed hundrets or thousands of battle droids (+ the seismic tank on Dantooine) even without having a weapon
-he killed Jango Fett
-he defeated Asajj VentressAnd now come on people. Revan defeating NJO Luke ? Please. Revan is powerful, he is a great swordfighter. No doubt about it. But he still isn't Luke Skywalker. You can call me a Luke fanboy, you can argue that point for years with me but Luke pretty much can't be killed by ANYBODY in the SW universe. He could simply make himself invisible and not senseable through the force (he actualy posesses that abilities), sneak up behind Revan and cut Revan into pieces with his lightsabers before Revan would know that somebody is there.
Mace vs Malak:
his own fighting style when he was 12 or 13 years old, he became a Council member at the age of 28 (an age were "normal" people are just ready to become Jedi Knights - Obi-Wan became a Knight at the age of 25) being the youngest Council member in the history of the Jedi Order. Actually that says a lot about Mace force knowledge and lightsaber mastery and I'd say he clearly is more powerful than Malak.
Mace will just use his Shatterpoint ability, find Malaks weak point and exploid it. Hell...Windu [b]inventedSo I'd say that Mace would defeat Malak and you'll end up with NJO Luke + Mace vs Revan with Jedi winning. And please don't say something about "teamwork"...they would have no time for teamwork here. [/B]
^^^^OH YEAAAAH
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...before deceiding the winner, some points for the 4 people fighthing here.NJO Luke:
- defeated Vader
- defeated Sidious who has altered his force powers with a chrystal
- defeated Joruus C'Baoth
- defeated Mara Jade
- threw an entire fleet out of a star system
- survived Exar Kuns spirit + Kyp Durron attacking him with force powers
- with a concussion of the brain, a badly injured leg (direct hit from a Ghamorrean with an axe !), and a damaged lung he could still levitate 30 metres and force push a metal shredder through an entire room
- he rendered an entire planet invisible for an infinite amount of time
- he was able to produce an illusion with the force to change his appearance deceiving all inhabitants of a space station and also other force users (without them knowing he actualy did anything)
- he kept that illusion running for more than a week in a place where people on the level of a Dark Jedi can't even ignite their lightsaber through the force being there for half an hour
- he can control black holes as well as gravity
- he trained people that could tear down entire mountains with force powers / he trained somebody that killed Marka Ragnos spirit (something that people like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun were afraid of even trying !)
- he singlehandly destroyed thousands of Yuuzhan Vong, killed their most powerful fighters (Slayers - Kyp Durron hit them with dozens of hits and wasn't able to kill one of them) with one hit each and killed their Supreme Overlord (so the most powerful fighter of an entire race of fighters) in a duel.I guess, we all know what Revan did...
Malak:
- he defeated two Jedi (so probably he is something like Dooku in a lightsaber duel)
- he defeated Kavar
- he got his ass kicked by KOTOR I Revan at least two times in a row
- he didn't ever manage to step out of Revans shadow...hell he wasn't even able to kill Revan when Revan was busy fighting 5 Jedi.Mace:
-he invented his own lightsaber style when he was a Padawan
-he posess his unique Shatterpoint ability
-he is the second best Jedi duelist known (except Yoda)
-he defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel
-he probably can kill Dooku in a lightsaber duel
-he destroyed hundrets or thousands of battle droids (+ the seismic tank on Dantooine) even without having a weapon
-he killed Jango Fett
-he defeated Asajj VentressAnd now come on people. Revan defeating NJO Luke ? Please. Revan is powerful, he is a great swordfighter. No doubt about it. But he still isn't Luke Skywalker. You can call me a Luke fanboy, you can argue that point for years with me but Luke pretty much can't be killed by ANYBODY in the SW universe. He could simply make himself invisible and not senseable through the force (he actualy posesses that abilities), sneak up behind Revan and cut Revan into pieces with his lightsabers before Revan would know that somebody is there.
Mace vs Malak:
his own fighting style when he was 12 or 13 years old, he became a Council member at the age of 28 (an age were "normal" people are just ready to become Jedi Knights - Obi-Wan became a Knight at the age of 25) being the youngest Council member in the history of the Jedi Order. Actually that says a lot about Mace force knowledge and lightsaber mastery and I'd say he clearly is more powerful than Malak.
Mace will just use his Shatterpoint ability, find Malaks weak point and exploid it. Hell...Windu [b]inventedSo I'd say that Mace would defeat Malak and you'll end up with NJO Luke + Mace vs Revan with Jedi winning. And please don't say something about "teamwork"...they would have no time for teamwork here. [/B]
Everyone makes a lightsaber when their young, including every single character. Mace was not the only one. He killed Jango Fett. Good for him. I bet you everything in the world that Malak and Revan would just have to move their hand to choke him to death. Mace can't just find a shatterpoint right away, Assajji Ventress was about the strength of a below average Dark Jedi during Malak and Revan's time, Revan would be smart enough not to just sit their and probably get out of the way so Luke can't kill him, and he would be smart enough to find another way to find out where Luke is, and he was not the youngest ever, he was the youngest since like 300 years ago.
Originally posted by Fishy
- He ruled thousands of Sith
Oh great. Nihilus did so, Sion did so, Kreia did so. Ah well...Sidious ruled trillions of people. Not much of an argument at all.
- He made the Republic cry for mercy
Don't give Malak the credit for Revans work. Malak did actualy nothing but hunt for Bastilla.
- He almost destroyed the republic
Also Revans work. Not Malaks.
- He had an amazing control over the force
Oh yes. So amazing that Revan just stepped in and defeated him two times (at least).
- He had enough power to control a star.
And the Star Forge again. Sorry...every dark sider posessing at least a little bit of power, willpower and knowledge about the dark side could have done that. Sidious could have done that and I would guess even Dooku could have done that.
- He defeated and ruled over Jedi Councillors and Ex - Jedi councillors.
Oh yes. Who ? Actually we only know that he defeated Kavar and Kavar was able to escape. The Exile (DS) killed Kavar with ease. If not the Exile than Kreia does it with a single hand movement. Oh...all that powerful Jedi Council members and Jedi Knights...
-Kavar ran away from 4 Soldiers trying to capture him
-Atris nearly got killed by the handmaiden
-even Atton did kill a lot of Jedi
That people are weak compared to the people running around in the films.
- He was a front line general during two wars in which he fought a lot.
Front line general ? How much generals do you know that are participating in front line combat A LOT ? That again is an assumption. Malak and Revan just appeared on the battlefield for the "realy" hard work (killing Mandalore, the Echani masters - stuff like that). That is what is proven from the KOTOR games.
You are underestimating both Malak and Revan by a lot and overestimating Mace.
No. You are overestimating Malak and Revan by a lot and underestimate Mace. Just go with the things that are proven and don't build you oppinion on assumptions. And with "assumptions" I mean "things that Revan and Malak might have done" and "people they fought that might have been as powerful as..."
Just take a look on their opponents:
- Jedi and Dark Jedi could be destroyed by PT Padawans
- Jedi Council members running away from threats people like Yoda or Mace would get rid off in seconds
If you don't believe me go and play the KOTOR games again and watch how that people move, how they fight, how they use the force. They are lame as hell and if stupidity would cause pain they all would immediatly die from it. Not to mention that all the things Malak and Revan did were done in a game universe where the game physics allow people to survive multiple direkt blaster hits and lightsaber strikes.
Originally posted by HimoKun
Everyone makes a lightsaber when their young, including every single character. Mace was not the only one.
Sorry if you got me wrong. He created Vaapad when he was 12 or 13 years old so his own fighting style. Basically something that noone ever did before.
Mace can't just find a shatterpoint right away
And it also won't take him hours to do so...
Assajji Ventress was about the strength of a below average Dark Jedi during Malak and Revan's time
Again: Assumption without any prove. Watch the Dark Jedi you fight in the KOTOR games, compare them to Ventress (who nearly defeated Anakin) and tell me again they could have done that...
Revan would be smart enough not to just sit their and probably get out of the way so Luke can't kill him, and he would be smart enough to find another way to find out where Luke is
Sure he will find somebody who can't be seen and can't be sensed through the force. Not that Luke would ever do such a thing...
and he was not the youngest ever, he was the youngest since like 300 years ago.
He is said to be the youngest EVER. In this case that means at least for 1,000 years more likely from KOTOR times on.
Of course it's different. And the developers won't change the froms from person to person. In th movies, all these different forms were used, but the only real noticable ones were Dooku's, Mace's, and Yoda's and Qui Gonn's. All the rest were almost the same. Sorry about the Mace thing. I thought you said that Mace had made a lightsaber when he was a padawan. 😮
And not all of it was Revan's work. Revan went down early on in the war, and Malak had to finish. And he almost did. And he did make the Republic cry for mercy, since he was destroying planets whole planets while Revan was not.
Let's see on the generals leading their troops. Well, Alexander the Great did, all the field generals during the ancient times, and alot of the generals during the Napoleonic era.
You're going down on us for assumptions, while you're doing them almost as much as the Revan supporters. How do we know any Dark Side user could use the Star Forge? Again, your assuming that Kavar was weak, again with the assuming, you think they only took down the major people, again, your assuming that Mace and Yoda would easily dispatch of them, your assuming their weaker than movie characters, and what Fishy means by Sith is fighting men, not just normal women and children, Nihilus didn't come close, niether did Kreia or Sion.
Time for my dissection of your dissection fo my post:
We don't know how long it would take Mace to find a shatterpoint. So we can both assume how long it would be.
Yes, I do watch the Drak Jedi in KOTOR, and I do believe they are the same strength as Assaji is.
And I'm not talking about sensing through the force, he would do something not involving trying to sense Luke using the force.
Where does it say he's the youngest ever?
Nai Fohl, I've respected your posts since I first looked at this forum, but here, I think you're wrong.
- Mace's Shatterpoint ability is somewhat overrated. It's obviously useful in a ny situation; I won't deny that. But Malak is severely underestimated. Of course he was easy to beat, it was a video game. Secondly, Even if Mace did find his Shatterpoint, he would have had to fight him for enough time to study his motions, styles, and behaviours in combat; meaning he'd have to stand his own against an undeniably powerful Sith Lord. Now, maybe he could pull it off, but chances are that Malak's superior Force power and control of the Dark Side would overwhelm Mace, but only after a difficult battle.
- Secondly, about Luke's power. I will never, ever, ever deny his power and sttatus as one of the most powerful beings the galaxy has ever known. But I believe that certain Sith such as Exar Kun or Marka Ragnos could take him in a fight. As for his ability to change his appearance and mask his presence, just look at Darth Sidious. He confronted in conversations such mighty Jedi as Mace Windu and Yoda himself, and retained his identity as a Sith Lord until he wished to reveal it. Also, in the novelization, the face of Palpatine is but a mask created by mysterious Force techniques, which is why it is painfully destroyed by Sidous' own lightning. Anyway, I highly doubt that Luke would need or get the chance to "morph" in the middle of battle. I think he could take Revan, but not before Malak defeated Mace and joined his master against Luke.
Thank you Darth Windu. I will officially give you the rank of "Senior patroler of the anti noob squad". And he is right, Mace has never really faced anyone like Malak. Let's outline his advantages:
-Experience versus other lightsaber wielders
-Force Control (Maybe strenching it a little)
-Height (He has five inches on Mace)
-Reach (He's got long arms)
-Raw Force (As in physical force)
I also believe he would be using something like Form 2 or Form 5, which Form 5 would make more sense and since Malak has the complete height advantage, his swings would severely affect Mace.
Lol. I don't Think Nai Fohl's a noob, but cool. 🙂 And as to Malak's advantages, I agree. His build would be perfect for taking advantage of Form V; he could use it to full potential. Now Mace, in all his fighting savvy, could probably find a way around this, but it would certainly hamper his ability to concentrate and try and find Malak's weaknesses.
Originally posted by HimoKun
And not all of it was Revan's work. Revan went down early on in the war, and Malak had to finish. And he almost did. And he did make the Republic cry for mercy, since he was destroying planets whole planets while Revan was not.
Erm...no.
The Jedi Civil war lasted for 3 years. Most of the time it was Revan who commanded the Sith forces. Revan was away only for the events you can see in KOTOR I. He was the one that did most of the work.
Let's see on the generals leading their troops. Well, Alexander the Great did, all the field generals during the ancient times, and alot of the generals during the Napoleonic era.
They were on the field but not realy participating in battles. At least they were not running around on the frontlines.
You're going down on us for assumptions, while you're doing them almost as much as the Revan supporters. How do we know any Dark Side user could use the Star Forge? Again, your assuming that Kavar was weak, again with the assuming, you think they only took down the major people, again, your assuming that Mace and Yoda would easily dispatch of them, your assuming their weaker than movie characters, and what Fishy means by Sith is fighting men, not just normal women and children, Nihilus didn't come close, niether did Kreia or Sion.
1.)
We know that the Rakatan could control the Star Forge. Yes. They were a whole species of force users. Still one of them alone would not be as powerful as the Sith Lords running around. And it's pretty much useful to assume that somebody like Sidious or Dooku could handle that thing. Sidious still was a "regular" Dark Lord of the Sith. Keep that in mind.
2.)
I don't have to assume Kavar is weak. You can see that for yourself when you play KOTOR II the Dark Side way. And I'm just talking about force powers. For lightsaber combat: He uses two lightsabers so at least he has to know what he does since that is the most difficult way of lightsaber combat. Still he's nothing like Yoda, Mace, Dooku or Sidious.
3.)
I don't have to assume that Revan and Malak only fought the "major" people. They had possibly hundrets of Dark Jedi on their side. What did they do if Malak and Revan would have wasted anyone on the field alone ? Just imagine you are a king and you are fighting the army of another king. Would you waste your time with the "normal" people running around on the battlefield ?
4.)
Just take a look at the games. Take a look at how your opponents fight. If 3 guys with lightsabers and 10 people with blasters attack you and you still survive that - does that say more about your own skill or the skill of the people you faced ?
5.)
I know what Fishy meaned. Still...take a look at KOTOR II and count all that Dark Jedi and Sith you are facing.
We don't know how long it would take Mace to find a shatterpoint. So we can both assume how long it would be.
He can sense the connection between people just looking at them.
Find a shatterpoint doesn't also take him very long. Take a look at the ROTS novel: He does that before disarming Sidious so basically after 20 or 30 seconds fighting. Not that much time.
Yes, I do watch the Drak Jedi in KOTOR, and I do believe they are the same strength as Assaji is.
"Using the Force, Asajj whittled away the clone trooper guards, and then began a stunning lightsaber duel with Anakin. So skilled was she, Asajj even proved to be a challenge to the fabled Chosen One of Jedi legend. To defeat her, Anakin needed the edge granted by giving into anger. In a furious counter-attack, young Skywalker repulsed Ventress, who nevertheless survived." ~starwars.com database
The Dark Jedi in KotOR woulnd't survive Anakin giving into his anger. They won't even survive Anakin attacking them in a "normal" way.
Where does it say he's the youngest ever?
That is clearly stated in different sources. I don't know if that is stated in the movies. If not you would have to check other sources.
I don't know exactly where this point came up, but I think Assaj Ventress is an above average Dark Jedi. If she could almost wound/defeat Obi Wan, who I consider to be an exceptional swordsman, I think she's better than the "average" Dark Jedi of Revan's time. Obviously, she's weaker than Revan and Malak's best lietutenants and supporters, but she's not bad. Not exceptionally, freakishly powerful, but not weak at all.